Motorhome dealers, no better than a second hand car sales

[Sophie]

The debate about merits or otherwise of "name and shame" intrigues me.

 

Surely the question of slander/libel only arises if (for example) a Poster on here makes a derogatory comment that he/she knows to be false or should have known to be false.??

 

So if someone, based on their honest and real experience of a dealer, criticises that dealer as a "warning" to others, what's the problem.? I for one would welcome others' experience of dealers, bad and good.

 

To say "this Dealer was rubbish because this happened...." and not tell me who the Dealer is, helps me not at all.

 

So setting aside the possibility of a Dealer throwing a teddy out of a pram by removing advertising, what's the issue? I'm sure (in this case) MMM/Warners have indemnity against possible false statements put on here for some reason by Posters???

 

 

[LordThornber]

Mel B - 2011-05-26 6:50 PM

 

Brilliant idea Derek!

 

C'mon you motorhome dealers ... give us your 'horrible customer' stories!!! :-D

 

OK, here goes, cut very short.

 

I do my bit of part time work for a main dealer in new cars not m'homes but the principle is the same.

 

A car was booked in for a service which in turn highlighted a problem. We rang the owner, no answer and then the owners wife. We explained the problem, (cost about £100), she said go ahead.

 

Husband comes in for car and refuses to pay for repair that wife had ok'd on the grounds that, (this is true), his wife is b****y thick and she shouldn't have ok'd it. He is absolutely ranting.

 

Not our problem, but in the interests of goodwill we agreed to discount the bill to £50, way over and above anything necessary but that's what we did.

 

His response? No way, not satisfied, blah blah blah. He had to be practically escorted from the garage showroom and was told not to return. he paid the £50.

 

The business has been trading for almost 70 years and is extremely well regarded in both the public and trade eye, the customer was told not to return as the business could well do without his custom.

 

Martyn

[Sophie]

"To defame is to attack somebody's good name or reputation, (that's assuming they have one!). "

 

Which surely only becomes illegal if what is said about the "somebody" is false?

[Brian Kirby]

Have a look at this, from Wiki: http://tinyurl.com/y9pla6

 

It is a bit more complicated than just being sure what you write is the truth. Also, putting comments onto a forum is, in effect, publication, in exactly the same way as if published in a newspaper.

 

So far as I am aware, it is the owner of the forum website who becomes liable, as publisher, the written material merely being submitted by others.

 

As you will see, truth can be a defence, but I have always been told it is an uncertain defence, because truth in such matters is not an absolute, it is only what the author holds to be truth, and so is open to challenge. There is also a clear intend to damage a business by asserting that it is unreliable, dishonest, or merely provides poor service.

 

An obvious defence to such claims, on the part of the business, would be that the event described was an aberration, and does not represent their normal standards. Satisfied customers might say they had experienced no such problems. That would reduce the claim to one person's experience, to be set against the satisfactory experiences of others. I suspect that had the business sued the author for the libellous statements under those circumstances, their defence would have been accepted, leaving the author having libelled them.

 

That is why Warners will take down posts that cross that very difficult and indistinct line. BIG bill to follow! Be very careful what you "say" in writing!

[postnote]

OK Brian point taken, but how does the man in the street who as you know, pays what he feels is a lot of hard earnt money for a motorhome. Probably the second biggest outlay he has made; second to a house.

Then finds that he has been sold a bit of a pig, sorry pigs.

 

From experience and the problems I had and these were genuine, the dealers service department was not very friendly in fact off hand and rude when my wife contacted them.

 

As you know I will speak my mind as you have replied too on many occasions, but there are people out there who find it hard to confront a person fact to face and complain. I suspect you are not one of these and good for you. However unless people speak up and these forums help, how are others warned against some of these dealers.

 

 

[stantheman]

Don't get too profound, Brian. We're only simple folk!!! 8-)

[Brian Kirby]

stantheman - 2011-06-06 5:58 PM

 

Don't get too profound, Brian. We're only simple folk!!! 8-)

 

Amen to that, and are we not all? (lol) The problem is that whereas we may all be simple folk, the world we inhabit is far from simple, and is getting more complex all the time.

 

That places us at a severe disadvantage, and the only way we can hope to redress the balance is to take it on as it is, not will it to be simpler because that is how we can understand it. If we try to do that, the only people who will be fooled are ourselves, and the world will just roll merrily on by in its own sweet, complicated, little way, leaving us gasping in its wake.

 

Sorry, but if we want to get even, we just have to equip ourselves to deal with the world as it is, however hard that may seem.

[JENIAN]

stantheman - 2011-05-26 7:47 PM

 

Surely the advantage of internet forums is that people can share their views openly. We need to know about good pieces of kit and helpful service but it's just as important to know what, and who to avoid. Nobody likes to learn by their own mistakes.

 

If all the forums on the 'net showed cautious restraint, they would have shut down by now through sheer lack of interest. Litigation certainly hasn't curtailed their activity. If you can't expose a charlatan in cyberspace, where can you?

 

Just remember to simply state the facts, be able to back them up with firm evidence and not to 'bad-mouth' a person or organisation. Libel is the publication of defamatory matter. To defame is to attack somebody's good name or reputation, (that's assuming they have one!).

 

 

 

Anyway, if retailers don't want a bad press they know what to do about it. And on the forums, they do have the right and opportunity to reply!

 

Forum administrators - please note.

 

(by the way, I think all of us motorhomers are just a wee bit too law-abiding!!!)

 

Ok. where do i start, are yes, at the beginning. We started motorhoming in 2005 with being selt 'a pup' privately, in Ruskington, North Linconshire. After a year of putting our beloved AS Harmony back in shape and a few thousands short in the wallet, we sold it to a delightful young couple on Ebay. So oft we toggled to Newark to the biggest dealer in the Country for a 2nd m/home. Nuff said!!!!! Because we did not want to buy NEW we were passed from pillar to preverable post. Till we dropped the idea of buying from the 'biggest dealer in the Country, and went to the BEST in North Lincolnshire, CAMPER UK. They sold us a 2001 Duetto with no pressure at all, and a good deal, speak to Doug. They did all the upgrades for us and can thoroughly recommend them. We have NO connection with the firm but the best advertisement is 'word of mouth'.

 

Kind regards,

 

Ian

 

 

 

 

[Big Momma]

postnote - 2011-05-28 3:13 PM

 

What is highlighted in this forum, is that people are very quick to complain, but human nature has it that we can’t raise the same enthusiasm to compliment. Is the a British trait that we can't be bothered?

 

Or perhaps it is that we pay for, and therefore expect, a certain standard of service. If you get what you have paid for then you do not send any communication basically saying 'Thank you for providing the service you have charged me for'. On the other hand if you pay for something and don't receive the service or quality then surely you have a right to voice your discontent. I don't think that it is a British trait to complain, in fact quite the opposite. The British are known for their attitude of stiff upper lips, putting up with sub standard or poor service whilst most Europeans are very vocal if they are not happy with something.

 

I agree that if someone goes beyond the call of duty and provides exceptional service then praise where it is due.

[stantheman]

 

There you go, Brian. You're doing it again!!!

 

[postnote]

Sounds as though Brian missed his medication again today :D

[postnote]

Although relatively new to Motor Homing, I now feel that I have taken to it, as we now spend more time away from the house than in it. To the point I’d like to trade my Auto trail in for a brand new one. I was think of replacing it with the 2011 Mohawk. But I’m not sure how I should approach the dealers and yes will try to play one against another for the best deal. Do I go in believing they are concerned for my best interests? Or what they can prise out of me, yes ever the cynic. :D

Lastly not sure whether it is worth the hassle of selling privately or part exchange, would I lose out. For example when I enquired I managed to get an instant discount on a new MH of £5000 for cash.

[tonyishuk]

I wonder what goes on behind the scences at MMM, do they read the posts that say Dealer XYZ has had some serious issues do we not give them a gong this year for best dealer ?

 

or vehicle manufacturer Fiat should not have had too much praise with the gearbox problem.

 

Obviously if the posts get too hot to handle the thread gets pulled (and from an advertising perspective that pays for a cheap(ish ?) magazine that we buy and a web site run for our benefit, who would blame them.

 

I suppose that a privately funded web site can do a bit more in name and shame without too much editorial infulence.

 

Personaly speaking I buy MMM and am greatful for the web site that they produce and save myself a tenner.

 

Rgds

 

PS I also like you lot as well, its like being the famiy with bickering. Aunts, Uncles and siblings *-) :D

 

 

[flicka]

tonyishuk - 2011-07-10 9:10 PM

 

PS I also like you lot as well, its like being the famiy with bickering. Aunts, Uncles and siblings *-) :D

 

 

& a fair few prodigal Sons. :D :D

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

My view of our nearest very large dealer, is they could be selling empty shoe boxes for all the enthusiasm, and knowledge they seem to have of our hobby.

[WildBill]

I can see why some people have this view of MH dealers.

We have a second hand Wildaxe Constelation which came with a large heavy stand alone table. Shortly after buying the MH we were looking for an alternative table. No accessory shops could help so we popped over to our local converter who just happens to trade less than 15 minutes from our door. This is a well respected converter who wins awards every year and everyone is full of praise for, so we looked to them for some help. When we pitched up there was no one around in the office so we asked someone who was working on a conversion for some advice. He was great, knowledgable and full of enthusiasm. He showed us how they made their tables on site and we looked at what they had on the shelf waiting to be fitted into various motorhomes. He could not have done a better PR and sales job if he tried. Unfortunately he could not help us out as he was not a salesman. He did point us in the direction of the main office where he was sure someone would help us further. That is where everything turned sour. The man in the main office told us that there was nothing for sale. When we asked where they bought their table legs from he said he could not help. When asked if there would be any chance of buying a table leg and table the answere was no. No explanation just no. Infact he was just down right rude. We left and went to get into our vehicle. As we went to the vehicle someone asked us if we were going. I said "yes". "Good" he said, " I might get my vehicle parked now that you are out the way".

This same company were totaly different when we looked at one of their MHs at one of the shows, but after the table incident, we will steer well clear, even if they do win awards every year and have a good reputation.

 

[WildBill]

I can see why some people have this view of MH dealers.

We have a second hand Wildaxe Constelation which came with a large heavy stand alone table. Shortly after buying the MH we were looking for an alternative table. No accessory shops could help so we popped over to our local converter who just happens to trade less than 15 minutes from our door. This is a well respected converter who wins awards every year and everyone is full of praise for, so we looked to them for some help. When we pitched up there was no one around in the office so we asked someone who was working on a conversion for some advice. He was great, knowledgable and full of enthusiasm. He showed us how they made their tables on site and we looked at what they had on the shelf waiting to be fitted into various motorhomes. He could not have done a better PR and sales job if he tried. Unfortunately he could not help us out as he was not a salesman. He did point us in the direction of the main office where he was sure someone would help us further. That is where everything turned sour. The man in the main office told us that there was nothing for sale. When we asked where they bought their table legs from he said he could not help. When asked if there would be any chance of buying a table leg and table the answere was no. No explanation just no. Infact he was just down right rude. We left and went to get into our vehicle. As we went to the vehicle someone asked us if we were going. I said "yes". "Good" he said, " I might get my vehicle parked now that you are out the way".

This same company were totaly different when we looked at one of their MHs at one of the shows, but after the table incident, we will steer well clear, even if they do win awards every year and have a good reputation.

 

[mike 202]

It seems to me that a lot of salesmen are your best friend when you are going to buy. I wonder if the owners of the group you mentioned are actually aware of their staff's attitude and that you at least will be losing them your business and I guess if you had your way (which I agree) they would lose others business.

So an E-mail to the owners (pretend you are eager to buy but need reasurance from the owner in order to get the owners E-mail) may change the company's staffs attitude.

 

Personally, i deal with a local branch of a National dealership and there were staff their that I praise for their help and others that I would not give the time of day. If I had been unlucky and got one of these, who seemed to think that they were doing me a favour then I doubt that they would have got my business.

 

[Rayjsj]

robertandjean - 2011-05-18 7:49 PM

 

Hi,

Know this will not meet with general approval but have always found Brownhills excellent both in terms of sales and after sale, and we have bought a lot of vans from them over the years! Can not say the same for Glossop Caravans; bought one van from them never again. So yes some dealers are no better than second hand car dealers but Brownhills, in our experience, certainly are.

 

Bought at the Malvern Show last Year, from Brownhills, the pickup was from the Swindon branch (we live in West Wales). apart from a delay in the delivery date, whilst they sourced and then fitted a new charger and power unit the Handover was faultless, about a month later we found a serious water leak from the Eberspacher water 'calorofier' under one lounge seat/bed, this was diagnosed over the phone and replaced within a couple of days (both very expensive parts !!) SO, I am VERY impressed with Brownhills Southwest's Service, under their Warranty, AND would certainly buy from them again.

OK maybe the water leak should have been picked up in the PDI, but it took us a month to find it, so. Not a problem. IF it had been a 'Private Buy' and I had been tempted ( a thousand or so pounds cheaper) It would have been a dissapointing purchase. I agree with robertandjean. ray :D

[tazdog6007]

buying from brownhills newark was slick and professional but are jumping through a lot of hoops to get a broken awning fixed on warranty from auto-sleeper.six weeks and no action.last call was a,could you call back sat after next as the person dealing is on holiday.not good on a camper four months old. 8o|

[tazdog6007]

good blog this. although i am having aggro over the awning problem when i go to brownhills newark i wonder how they keep it all going.huge showroom,bistro.swimming pool,overnight stay area,staff,security,workshop,all on selling motorhomes.there must be times when they are on the edge.having said,half the sales area and double the workshop seems a good idea.

[mike 202]

From recent comments it appears that Autosleeper are going down hill fast with regard to Warranty claim responses. They deserved their hard won reputation for quality, friendliness, and general "we want to help " attitude. That is why I bought Autosleeper, BUT hard won good reputations can easily go down the tubes and their apparent current attitude seems to be, Reputation in freefall. I do wonder if the new British owners are fully aware of what is happening to their companies reputation ????

 

[tazdog6007]

1st august update on awning repair.from brownhills.autosleeper on annual shutdown,so nobody to deal.we will call you whenever.thank god this is the last one of these things i will ever buy.the way the pension system is going most wont be in business in five years anyway. i will dance on brownhills grave!

[Brian Kirby]

There should be a separate warranty on the awning from (presumably) Fiamma or Omnistor. If it is an awning part that is broken, have you considered contacting whichever directly, to get the awning fault fixed? Trying to go through Brownhills/Autosleepers seems to me just making the potentially simple needlessly complicated.

 

However, aren't B/h agents for either firm? I'd have thought they could sort the problem themselves, and then argue with whoever later when they are all back at work.

 

Besides all of which, if B/h sold the van, it is their liability to fix (within a reasonable time), not Autosleepers.

[Rayjsj]

As a Postscript to my above post, have found out today that Brownhills have closed their Swindon Branch ??? SO, I won't be dealing with Brownhills again, as all of their remaining branches are in the North, (and to Me Newark IS in the North) Just too bloody far away to deal with. Ray