Latest MMM mag test report on A class with judder

[colin]

Tracker - 2011-05-26 5:37 PM

 

And so does the opposite - which is why although I don't have an X250 having been warned in time - I will never buy another Fiat based product.

 

But what make will you buy?

Ford, early mk6 FWD had much worse gearbox problems, all kept quite.

Merc, early sprintshifts very unreliable, last model if you have to change injector is a tossup as to wherter the head gets written off.

Renault, these have worse gearbox problems than modded Fiats.

Never say never ;-)

[Guest Tracker]

oldlowie - 2011-05-26 7:21 PM

 

Tracker - 2011-05-26 5:37 PM

 

And so does the opposite - which is why although I don't have an X250 having been warned in time - I will never buy another Fiat based product.

 

How do you distinguish between your Peugeot, my Peugeot, and a Fiat-based product?

 

Yours, would appear by it's year, to be the current model.

Mine is the previous model.

They are both Fiat made but mine has the Peugeot 2.2 hdi engine whilst yours has the later version as fitted to both Peugeot and Fiat (and Citroen) versions.

Nothing wrong with that I might add!

 

 

[Guest Tracker]

colin - 2011-05-26 7:51 PM

 

Tracker - 2011-05-26 5:37 PM

 

And so does the opposite - which is why although I don't have an X250 having been warned in time - I will never buy another Fiat based product.

 

But what make will you buy?

Ford, early mk6 FWD had much worse gearbox problems, all kept quite.

Merc, early sprintshifts very unreliable, last model if you have to change injector is a tossup as to wherter the head gets written off.

Renault, these have worse gearbox problems than modded Fiats.

Never say never ;-)

 

It was a close run thing but in 2008 after much looking we decided that we didn't like the style of the X250, the build quality, the added complexity of newer vans and conversions or their, to us, lack of charm and charisma and their flimsiness of materials - sold to us a 'lightweight' yeah right. What that means is that the base vehicle has become so heavy that the converters have to lose conversion weight or the will not be a workable payload.

 

Some of the design 'features' left a lot to be desired too - obviously not designed by motor caravanners!

 

The final deciding factor was the over high reverse gear ratio making reversing with clutch fully engaged far too fast for safety - and I am not known for driving slowly believe me - and the incurable judder that Fiat even denied existed at that time.

 

There is no way we would now take a chance on a used one and with the advent of all that unproven techy mumbo jumbo of Euro 5 we will stick what is a darned good van that does all we want it to and spend the cash on essentials like solar panels, a boat, and either a nice Jag or Merc - but not a Fiat!

 

So our Starlet will, like as not, be our last van and it should with luck and tlc last as long as we do. If it goes wrong, sorry, when it goes wrong, whatever it costs will be a hell of a lot less than the first year depreciation on a new van. Buying new is a very expensive way to get a warranty!

[Mel B]

As an aside to this thread, did anyone else get the Caravan Guard May 2011 e-newsletter with a link to a review of the new Bentley Donington motorhome? If not the review can be read here.

 

Bentley Donington

 

What amazes me is the price of this and it appears to have a standard push up Heki!!!!! 8-)

[colin]

I fully agree that if you have a van that does what you want why change it.

Our old F reg VW served us well untill a couple of years ago when it just became uneconomical to keep on road.

We have been looking for a replacement for several years, almost brought a Twin but the judder problem put that on hold, since the mods on gearbox where done we looked again for a van, considered custom build but that went pearshaped, then along came the 636, the closest production van to our ideal, may have to make some mods to get it perfect then hope to run it until it gives up, thats how I always use vehicles.

[modelmaker]

8 weeks ago we bought a autoquest elite 500 a 1995 model on the peugeot 2.5 tdi . it runs lovey but when we test drove it was fine but it was empty , but when loaded it judders in reverse but only on grass .but the only thing that worries me is the speed in reverse because it stops tne judder. it seems that the fast i go the bet it gets. the last thing i what to do is wear my clutch out i would like my clutch to last. sorry but i do not wont burh my clutch out by sliping it. allso i would like to know who designed the gear box because they have not got a clue . I had to exit the van to ask people to keep clear because I would have to reverse up the bank so fast to stop judder people will say will say why move to a nother part of field but why should i the motor should be capable of reverseing up slope with out damage.

[modelmaker]

8 weeks ago we bought a autoquest elite 500 a 1995 model on the peugeot 2.5 tdi . it runs lovey but when we test drove it was fine but it was empty , but when loaded it judders in reverse but only on grass .but the only thing that worries me is the speed in reverse because it stops tne judder. it seems that the fast i go the bet it gets. the last thing i what to do is wear my clutch out i would like my clutch to last. sorry but i do not wont burh my clutch out by sliping it. allso i would like to know who designed the gear box because they have not got a clue . I had to exit the van to ask people to keep clear because I would have to reverse up the bank so fast to stop judder people will say will say why move to a nother part of field but why should i the motor should be capable of reverseing up slope with out damage.

[modelmaker]

8 weeks ago we bought a autoquest elite 500 a 1995 model on the peugeot 2.5 tdi . it runs lovey but when we test drove it was fine but it was empty , but when loaded it judders in reverse but only on grass .but the only thing that worries me is the speed in reverse because it stops tne judder. it seems that the fast i go the bet it gets. the last thing i what to do is wear my clutch out i would like my clutch to last. sorry but i do not wont burh my clutch out by sliping it. allso i would like to know who designed the gear box because they have not got a clue . I had to exit the van to ask people to keep clear because I would have to reverse up the bank so fast to stop judder people will say will say why move to a nother part of field but why should i the motor should be capable of reverseing up slope with out damage.

[flicka]

I don't want to detract from Brian's very valid comments, but with all the negative comments regarding the MMM Van test journalists, I think one major point has been omitted.

 

Whatever any journalist submits for publication, it will be subject to review by Editorial (& possibly Legal) staff to ensure there is no content that could be deemed libel.

 

As we are not aware of the original text, it's possible that the journalists are as frustrated as forum users & that we may be doing them a disservice.

 

Remember - Andy tackled his Fiat's problems as an individual, not through the pages of MMM.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Mel B - 2011-05-26 9:06 PM

 

As an aside to this thread, did anyone else get the Caravan Guard May 2011 e-newsletter with a link to a review of the new Bentley Donington motorhome? If not the review can be read here.

 

Bentley Donington

 

What amazes me is the price of this and it appears to have a standard push up Heki!!!!! 8-)

 

When I was at this year's NEC Show I visited the IH Motorhomes stand and thought "Yes, these are beautifully finished motorcaravans, with lots of wonderfully 'stylish' features, but approaching £70k is a helluva basic asking-price." Then I visited the Bentley stand and thought what a bargain the IH Motorhomes vehicles were! Can't remember which Bentley model I looked at (the "Oulton"?), but it had two roof-lights in the living area and they were definitely the cheap-as-chips 'caravan' rattle-prone push-up HEKI 2s.

 

As special-purpose Renault-based vehicles have been touched on, we recently came across this company near Avranches in Normandy.

 

http://www.mtm.fr/index.htm

 

It specialises in constructing horse transporters (small to enormous) and sales seemed to be booming as there were 30-or-so brand-new Renault Master platform-cab chassis parked outside the factory ready for conversion. The horse-transporter prices are probably high (people who own horses are unlikely to be on the poverty line) and it's doubtful that it would make economic sense to have the company produce a one-off bespoke Renault-based motorhome. Nevertheless it shows what could be done to produce a compact, attractive motorhome that isn't just another run-of-the-mill, white-with-stripes, box.

 

 

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

modelmaker - 2011-05-26 9:43 PM

 

8 weeks ago we bought a autoquest elite 500 a 1995 model on the peugeot 2.5 tdi . it runs lovey but when we test drove it was fine but it was empty , but when loaded it judders in reverse but only on grass .but the only thing that worries me is the speed in reverse because it stops tne judder. it seems that the fast i go the bet it gets. the last thing i what to do is wear my clutch out i would like my clutch to last. sorry but i do not wont burh my clutch out by sliping it. allso i would like to know who designed the gear box because they have not got a clue . I had to exit the van to ask people to keep clear because I would have to reverse up the bank so fast to stop judder people will say will say why move to a nother part of field but why should i the motor should be capable of reverseing up slope with out damage.

 

I suspect (based on your earlier postings) that the Autoquest is your first motorhome.

 

Prior to the current Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot 'X250' range of vehicles that began to be marketed in 2006, to the best of my knowledge there were no criticisms of the gearing of the preceding models. That doesn't mean that the gearing was necessarily ideal, just that nobody felt it to be sufficiently unsuitable to bother to criticise it.

 

As you are getting vibration only when reversing on grass, then it's tempting to think that this is caused by repeated loss of traction, as the front wheels gain, then lose, then regain grip on the slippery surface. If you can maintain momentum by increasing the vehicle's speed, then you may also maintain traction and minimise the vibration.

 

If you believe that your fully-loaded motorhome should be able to crawl backwards up a steepish hill with the clutch fully engaged, then you are being seriously unrealistic. You'll have to choose either between having the clutch fully engaged and moving backwards at whatever speed the vehicle's motor is comfortable at and produces enough power to handle the slope you are climbing, or slip the clutch to keep the across-the-ground speed down to what you consider to be a safe manageable level. If you treat the clutch with sympathy and only slip it as little and as gently as possible, then there's no reason to expect it to overheat. Conversely, if you employ unsympathetic techniques (high engine revs, long duration slipping, etc.) then you will overheat it. I've seen motorcaravanners/caravanners manoeuvring on campsites abusing their vehicles' clutches so brutally you'd think they were taking their first driving lesson.

 

Ordinary road vehicles are optimised for going forwards not backwards, and it's not unreasonable to anticipate that reversing may reveal 'roughness' in a vehicle's behaviour. It's also possible that the behaviour you've described is peculiar to your vehicle and relates to its age. I'd be tempted to look at the mountings for the engine and gearbox as, if these are damaged or coming to the end of their natural lifespan, this could cause the whole engine/transmission package to start bouncing about when placed under the loads produced during reversing up an incline.

[DESCO]

flicka - 2011-05-26 10:01 PM

 

I don't want to detract from Brian's very valid comments, but with all the negative comments regarding the MMM Van test journalists, I think one major point has been omitted.

 

Whatever any journalist submits for publication, it will be subject to review by Editorial (& possibly Legal) staff to ensure there is no content that could be deemed libel.

 

As we are not aware of the original text, it's possible that the journalists are as frustrated as forum users & that we may be doing them a disservice.

 

Remember - Andy tackled his Fiat's problems as an individual, not through the pages of MMM.

 

 

While I can see your point, why hasn't anybody from the editorial staff been on line to explain their point of view and reasons. In all the time I have been looking at this forum and this matter has come up a few times it has never been answered by an editor. Hence the reason I no longer have a subscription, or buy MMM.

 

Dave

[Manu]

On a lighter note have any of you Sevel owners tried using the footbrake from the passenger side....oh dear !

Or is that an optional extra ?

[oldlowie]

Manu - 2011-05-27 10:05 AM

 

On a lighter note have any of you Sevel owners tried using the footbrake from the passenger side....oh dear !

Or is that an optional extra ?

 

:D :D :D Yep, I saw Watchdog, and I drive a C4 as well (!) Bloody Frogs :D :D :D

[colin]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-05-27 9:25 AM

 

modelmaker - 2011-05-26 9:43 PM

 

8 weeks ago we bought a autoquest elite 500 a 1995 model on the peugeot 2.5 tdi . it runs lovey but when we test drove it was fine but it was empty , but when loaded it judders in reverse but only on grass .but the only thing that worries me is the speed in reverse because it stops tne judder. it seems that the fast i go the bet it gets. the last thing i what to do is wear my clutch out i would like my clutch to last. sorry but i do not wont burh my clutch out by sliping it. allso i would like to know who designed the gear box because they have not got a clue . I had to exit the van to ask people to keep clear because I would have to reverse up the bank so fast to stop judder people will say will say why move to a nother part of field but why should i the motor should be capable of reverseing up slope with out damage.

 

I suspect (based on your earlier postings) that the Autoquest is your first motorhome.

 

Prior to the current Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot 'X250' range of vehicles that began to be marketed in 2006, to the best of my knowledge there were no criticisms of the gearing of the preceding models. That doesn't mean that the gearing was necessarily ideal, just that nobody felt it to be sufficiently unsuitable to bother to criticise it.

 

 

I have no knowledge of juddering on 1995 vans, but have read several posts on here and the 'dark side' of complaints re juddering of the last model Fiat, wheter this is due to gearing I don't know, but I would say the posts out number those of the post mod x250's

[DJP]

As the original poster I did write to the editor of MMM. I have not yet had a reply. I also wrote to the tester, who did reply. Based on his reply I did ask a few more questions about his "innacurate" road test. I have not had a reply to the second letter sent.

I do not feel at this time the reply should be posted in the public domain, despite his admission that the article did contain inaccuraces.

My main point was in reference to the statement regarding Fiats ability to rectify the "fault" on 3.0 ltr engined motorhomes. I did not question the comment about the actual judder he experienced as we all know it does exist on some 3.0 ltr models.