ham Posted May 31, 2011 Author Share Posted May 31, 2011 Well put Donna. unfortunatley the damage as been done. Not only by campers off road 4x4s motorbikes, mountain bikers our natural country side is being ruined by mind less idoits that will not heed notice .So the law is used and byelaws passed to prevent such misuse.Freeloader as been brought up at many a meeting about Motorhomes. Aires there is a discussion ongoing, But there are legal considerations and lets no mention insurance liability, all at cost to the local ratepayer and they see it as catering for a minority how are not local ratepayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 We do like a heated debate on here dont we! Good. I share Jim's (747's) frustration. I am a member of the wild camping site and there is a code of conduct within that forum that I know all the members do follow. We go out of our way to be discrete, we pick up others litter, clean the place up, dont start fires willy nilly, shop locally and generally behave ourselves. Some of you may not agree with our form of camping or even wish to do it but I hope you can see the reason for our frustration when our rewards for being so environmentally aware and sensitive to how we camp are rewarded by blanket bans, height barriers and people on here calling us free loaders. Despite many arguments on here there seems to be no progress in convincing some that "Free loading" is not the reason why many of us choose to wild camp (free camp, whatever, its just a term) I live in the country and its the same here. The fishing and hunting brigade are the ones that look after the countryside as they are aware how fragile their environment is and what a privalage they have to use it for their sport. Its the flipping townies that come along and spoil it, leaving litter everywhere as they arent bothered about coming back. Im not sure what the answer is in the UK, maybe there isnt one but there are still some great places to loose yourself and wild camp if you know where to go. I suspect the wildys will keep these even more to themselves the way things are going. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John J Thompson Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 It is not illegal to park up and stay in your van. It is however illegal for the landowner to permit you to do this, unless he is using an exemption under the first schedule section 2 of the Caravan Sites and Control of Development Act 1960 which allows for 1 motorhome/caravan to stay for 2 nights with a maximum of 28 nights in a year on his land, or he holds a site licence. Use by a person travelling with a caravan for one or two nights 2. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use of land as a caravan site by a person travelling with a caravan who brings the caravan on to the land for a period which includes not more than two nights— (a) during that period no other caravan is stationed for the purposes of human habitation on that land or any adjoining land in the same occupation, and (b) if, in the period of twelve months ending with the day on which the caravan is brought on to the land, the number of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that land or the said adjoining land for the purposes of human habitation did not exceed twenty-eight. Use of holdings of five acres or more in certain circumstances 3.—(l) Subject to 'the provisions of paragraph 13 of this Schedule, a site licence shall not be required for the use as a caravan site of land which comprises, together with any adjoining land which is in the same occupation and has not been built on, not less than five acres— (a) if in the period of twelve months ending with the day on which the land is used as a caravan site the number of days on which a caravan was stationed anywhere on that land or on the said adjoining land for the purposes of human habitation did not exceed 'twenty-eight, and (b) if in the said period of twelve months not more than three ca.ravians were so stationed at 'any one time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldlowie Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 rupert123 - 2011-05-30 2:56 PM I have been saying for some time on here that so called 'wild camping' is irresponsible both in the UK and Europe. Many disagree but here is yet more proof that it is doing us all harm. I am appalled that the above posting, whether you agree with it or not, should attract such abuse and vitriol from those who disagree. This is a forum, for Heaven's sake, and each is entitled to his or her opinion. If these ignorant postings are the best 'arguments' for wild/free camping that the wild and free can muster, then I am glad I have the wherewithal to pay for those sites I choose to stay on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 I think that if we ever do change our camper then I will go for a stealth camper B-) .....ie one that looks like an ordinary van from the outside but with a full conversion on the inside ;-) ........My father inlaw did one before he bought our Travelhome and went all over europe with it :D .........I was surprised when he sold it as being a cabinet maker he'd made a cracking job 8-) It would make.. wildcamping... freeloading...A lot easier B-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 A good idea, it would give you enhanced security as well, all you need is a sign " no tools kept in this van overnight" and your sorted. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-05-31 12:54 PM A good idea, it would give you enhanced security as well, all you need is a sign " no tools kept in this van overnight" and your sorted. :-) Father inlaw had a live Bee's sign :D .................seem to work a treat (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 747 - 2011-05-30 11:51 PM rupert123 - 2011-05-30 11:14 PM 747 - 2011-05-30 4:57 PM I fully agree with Tracker. Ignore that silly old twerp nicknamed Rupert. He will be in his element with this thread. It is the typical knee jerk reaction of the uninspired with the mentality of sheep. It is probably he who did the complaining in the first place under the pseudonym of "outraged of Bedgellert". *-) Jim you do not know me or have any idea about me so unless you have something sensible to say suggest you say nothing. I am against 'wild camping' with good reason, I have no problem with staying on aires/stellplatz etc. This is just another point against it, if you have any good points about it then please say because simply being abusive is a sure sign of someone without any argument. Why do you think all the height barriers go up in the first place. You really are are rather unpleasant person and suggest you take yourself off somewhere else. If you disagree then just say why and perhaps others will then listen. As for calling it 'wild camping' you obviously have no idea what wild camping is. I used to wild camp when climbing in the Alps, Dolomites etc. It was done in a small tent miles from anywhere before or after a climb. Perhaps you should re-name it 'camping for free loaders'. I am getting annoyed with you Rupert because we have had this conversation before but you have too much tunnel vision to amend your view in the slightest. I mentioned sheep because you are like the other sheep who believes every wildcamper dumps his rubbish willy nilly. Height barriers should be of concern to me and not you as they do not affect someone who uses sites full time. As for Aires and Stellplatz, I feel no need to be packed together on tarmac with umpteen other vans. I prefer the solitary wide open spaces. Yes, the last time you mentioned your wildcamping in the Dolomites etc. Fascinating but not relevant. You know nothing of me either. I have been in much more dangerous places than the Dolomites, on more than one Continent and without the comforts of a motorhome. I have wasted enough breath on you, suffice to say, why do'nt you find pastures anew. There are one or two members who would be happy with that. I believe that you have upset more people than I have. Now you can even read thoughts then Jim. I made no mention of everyone dumping rubbish, in fact did not mention rubbish at all. Height barriers do concern me as they block access during the day to park, I even came across a couple of French supermarkets with them last year. I will not change my mind on this as you have never come up with a single reason to. I have upset a couple of members on here but not by abuse, simply having a differant view seems to do it with some. I also use aires and stellplatz on occasion but will not trepass or park up for the night in places which cause problems. What has dangerous got to do with anything, we were talking about wild camping. I have little doubt that people who stay in places where they have no permission to be leave them tidy but not the point, it is causing problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Maybe it is the term "wild camping" that is confusing you Rupert. I "park" my taxed and insured road vehicle in places where there are no signs forbidding me to do so. If it is not officially allowed, I move on. As in Europe, I would be "camping" if I put out a tent, a table, an awning, a barbecue or similar. Only my 6 wheels are in contact with the ground and I am therefore "parking". I always ask local people if there would be any objections to staying overnight. Nobody has ever told me to move on and some have even suggested a better place in the vicinity. Some locals have told me to ignore the "no overnighting" signs as some were put up by local busybodies (at their own expense) who have a similar view as yourself and therefore have no basis in law. I should also make it clear that many Councils have erected signs which have no basis in law and many have been challenged and the Council found to be in breach of the Law. To make these changes, a bye law has to be raised and passed. many Councils never bother to do this, they simply stick up a sign. This is on similar lines to the thousands of motorists being fined for illegally parking, when in fact the authorities had not complied with the law and all monies were returned to the motorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 To Rupert 123 Just about anything the human race does causes problems to a greater or lesser degree, think about mans impact on just about everything, the eco system, climate,you know the rest. So when put into perspective someone having a dodgy night out somewhere in their van should even be thought of as causing problems as you put it, and if there was a scale from 0 to 10 they would in my opinion not even get on the scale. . Living as you do in a tourist destination you know as I do only too well the crap that gets dumped by the average picnicker down from the big cities for the day in their car, rubbish dumped everywhere, not to mention some going behind a dry stone wall for you know what because they lack their own facilities, and with Gwynedd as you well know closing more and more public toilets how short sighted is that. So called "wild camping" cannot be any worse surely, but somehow doubt you'll agree. As for height barriers, I have never read or heard specifically if they are aimed at M/homes, if so they spring up in some pretty odd places, one of the large retail parks in Shrewsbury comes to mind, and I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams anyone wanting to "wild camp " there in any event. Travelling market traders regularly sleep in their commercial vans overnight, perhaps they are aimed at them ? (?) :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-05-31 4:22 PM To Rupert 123 Just about anything the human race does causes problems to a greater or lesser degree, think about mans impact on just about everything, the eco system, climate,you know the rest. So when put into perspective someone having a dodgy night out somewhere in their van should even be thought of as causing problems as you put it, and if there was a scale from 0 to 10 they would in my opinion not even get on the scale. . Living as you do in a tourist destination you know as I do only too well the crap that gets dumped by the average picnicker down from the big cities for the day in their car, rubbish dumped everywhere, not to mention some going behind a dry stone wall for you know what because they lack their own facilities, and with Gwynedd as you well know closing more and more public toilets how short sighted is that. So called "wild camping" cannot be any worse surely, but somehow doubt you'll agree. As for height barriers, I have never read or heard specifically if they are aimed at M/homes, if so they spring up in some pretty odd places, one of the large retail parks in Shrewsbury comes to mind, and I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams anyone wanting to "wild camp " there in any event. Travelling market traders regularly sleep in their commercial vans overnight, perhaps they are aimed at them ? (?) :-S I do in fact agree with a lot of what you say here but as to free camping let us just agree to disagree perhaps without the abuse that 747 seems to enjoy. Incidently it would be nice if you attached a name to your profile so we know who we are talking to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 747 - 2011-05-30 8:49 PM Somebody put up a photo of a wind damaged m/home recently and all Lord Thornber could do was make a joke about him saving on site fees. He and Rupert have a dig at every possible opportunity. I do occasionally use sites (usually THS) and I live in fear of getting stuck next to some humourless person like them. If they changed the record, I would not make any disparaging remarks to them. 8o| You will soon spot the ones I mean. They are often bombastic and arrogant when posting replies but are all sweetness and light when asking a question to a problem. 747, congratulations on spotting my joke. That said, it wasn't too hard was it? FYI, (that's for your information if you don't know), "having a dig" is an ok thing to do. Honestly it is, you'll find this is a Forum and is made up of varying views, opinions, some of which will go too far for some folk - and not far enough for others. The modern word for this phenomena is called diversity and should you choose to ever embrace it, believe me it will enrich your life. How odd you spotted my joke and then call me humourless. Anyway, if insulting folk is as good as it gets for you, (bombastic & arrogant), that's your bag and the Moderator will deal with you as and when contributors take exception. As for myself, well I accept lots of issues in this life, (some of my own doing, some not), but you'll be hard pressed to find me insulting someone and worse still, insulting someones viewpoint. Apologies to this threads valuable contributors for this diversion but there really was no need for 747's comments. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Thanks for the reply Milord. It just goes to prove that there is a two tier structure on this forum and i am obviously on the lower one. It is OK for a certain clique to say whatever they like........and that is diversity of opinion. When lesser mortals have a different viewpoint, it is abuse. Would you like to check back through all my posts and tell me of any previous 'abuse'. You will not find any. Yet you have classified me as a freeloader who spends his life in lay bys, while throwing the contents of his Thetford into the ditch and draining wastewater into the gutter. If anyone has been abused by snide remarks then it is me. Am I bothered.....no, never by the likes of you. I will now leave you to digest this in your Ivory Tower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 747 - 2011-05-31 9:02 PM Yet you have classified me as a freeloader who spends his life in lay bys, while throwing the contents of his Thetford into the ditch and draining wastewater into the gutter. QUOTE] If you can show me where I have said this you will receive an unreserved apology. Either I'm having a mental block or you're making a pretty serious mix up. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertandjean Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 To be honest think that any off-site camping is a dead duck in the U.K as the general attitude in this country is against it; the same with the possibility of a national aires network, no chance! Nearest we found to aires was to go on rallies organised by one of the clubs but not go to bingo, dancing, coffee round the flag etc. This was not popular with the other rally people but so what; it gave us some nice weekends staying where we could not have otherwise. But now we are no longer restricted to weekends we spend our time in France using the aires network, as we are sure most of you know. As most of you will also know we do this not for cost reasons but because we like the "aires lifestyle" and no it is not true that all aires are on car parks with vans parked like sardines. infact the majority are not. Yes it is true that many are now charging, but we have no problem with this. In France we certainly see no reason to wild camp and would not support same; the aires together with France Passion stopovers provide more than enough places for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Tracker - 2011-05-30 5:04 PM Please note that I tried hard to reply to Rupert's point without resorting to insults. Personal attacks don't help and hiding behind a smiley just makes it worse in my view. Sorry Jim but in my view we do need to rid this forum of unprovoked personal attacks. And no - I don't consider myself to be a self appointed moderator - just a considerate, tolerant, responsible and moderate person unafraid to say it as he sees it. QUOTE] What a hypocrite. Reading this drivel really made me laugh. All this self righteous garbage coming from one of the leading exponents of the snide remark. Take a bow Richard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 Hi robertandjean, Your sentiments echo what was said by1footinthegrave and I will not fault your reasoning for doing that. I have a different attitude. I believe that if something is wrong then it needs fixing. This country of ours is gradually turning into a bureaucratic nightmare worthy of an H G Wells story. In the short term, the more that spend time in Europe will make it easier for us that prefer the UK. This is the wrong thread in which to go into detail, suffice to say that some of us will not be steamrollered by petty Council Officials. What I would like to see posted on this thread are details of exactly which bodies are resposible for the changes in the Gower. ie: which Council or Local Authority and names or Job titles. Could someone do that please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 What a pointless futile exercise these forums are becoming. And do you think for a moment some petty pen pusher in the council will even give you or I the time of day. .Alos I really do begin to wonder if some of you ever go out in your vans, if you have one that is. Over the months I've seen the same contributors time and time again every time I get an opportunity to log on and check out UK news etc, it's nearly June and your still on here wasting energy giving opinions that no one wants to hear ( including mine here no doubt), go out and spread the milk of human kindness in the real world. I'm currently in Castillon-le Bataille in 28 degrees and have had beautiful non stop sunshine since we arrived in France on the 5th of May, come and try it, I'm convinced it's that crap UK weather that gets you all down. If I can convince just one of you to give up on your ramblings and get your A**** across the channel I think I will have given my share of human kindness. For those that say they prefer the UK I can only say you've either never been here, or have gone to the wrong place, it's a motor homers paradise compared to anywhere in the UK B-) Gower in the drizzle, don't make me laugh.............................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-05-31 10:25 PM What a pointless futile exercise these forums are becoming. And do you think for a moment some petty pen pusher in the council will even give you or I the time of day. .Alos I really do begin to wonder if some of you ever go out in your vans, if you have one that is. Over the months I've seen the same contributors time and time again every time I get an opportunity to log on and check out UK news etc, it's nearly June and your still on here wasting energy giving opinions that no one wants to hear ( including mine here no doubt), go out and spread the milk of human kindness in the real world. I'm currently in Castillon-le Bataille in 28 degrees and have had beautiful non stop sunshine since we arrived in France on the 5th of May, come and try it, I'm convinced it's that crap UK weather that gets you all down. If I can convince just one of you to give up on your ramblings and get your A**** across the channel I think I will have given my share of human kindness. For those that say they prefer the UK I can only say you've either never been here, or have gone to the wrong place, it's a motor homers paradise compared to anywhere in the UK B-) Gower in the drizzle, don't make me laugh.............................. Dont have to convince me, I cant get out of here fast enough. Will be joining you very shortly for the entire summer. Will be wild camping and using Aires and spending LOTS of dosh (yes freeloaders do have dosh you know) on lots of nice food and drink, flying around the moutains and the med on me scooter or taking to the water in our dinghy. Or should I go to Wales. Hmm tough one. :-D Hopefully when I get back 747 will have sorted all these fuddy duddy council lot out once and for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
747 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 You go ahead and enjoy yourself in Europe mate. As for me? I spent over half my working life abroad and have done all of the travelling that I want to do. Over 60 countries means a lot of my life was wasted on long haul flights and in airports. Been there done it for so long that I got heartily sick of it. I do not even have a passport any more. I do have a pile of old ones in a drawer somewhere though. I will not even give relatives a lift to the airport these days, I break out in a sweat at the sight of aircraft. The British Isles is still a mystery to me and every trip means I go to a brand new place. I had never been North of Edinburgh until I got the van. 8-) . I have a lot of catching up to do and I want to see as much of this Septic Isle before I peg out. BTW, I have spent time in all European countries, former Soviet Bloc ones as well, so I am familiar with Europe. If its real adventure you want, try West Africa (green Mambas living in the thatch above me, pistol-whipped by a drunken cop, almost chucked into an Angolan jail, shot at on a regular basis), South America (my bodyguard had a shotgun with bores about 2" diameter ) 8-) And they are just the lighter moments. :D The terrors of Council officials are a new menace that I am quite prepared to face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barryd999 Posted May 31, 2011 Share Posted May 31, 2011 747 - 2011-05-31 10:55 PM If its real adventure you want, try West Africa (green Mambas living in the thatch above me, pistol-whipped by a drunken cop, almost chucked into an Angolan jail, shot at on a regular basis), South America (my bodyguard had a shotgun with bores about 2" diameter ) 8-) And they are just the lighter moments. :D . Thats why you live in Gateshead!!!! (lol) Anyway I thought you were coming as backup crew!! Be prepared for a deluge of posts across all forums about how to fix stuff that gets broken each day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 747 - 2011-05-31 10:55 PM You go ahead and enjoy yourself in Europe mate. The terrors of Council officials are a new menace that I am quite prepared to face. Thanks, I do, and I will. I can only wish you the very best of luck taking on the councils, but from my own personal experience I doubt you will achieve anything, these people are a law unto themselves .Any dealings I've had with these idiots over the years achieved precisely zero, as a sole individual you will be completely ignored, or just regarded as a gad fly. Letters to the local paper every week about some nonsense or other the council are responsible for are completely ignored. A big local issue has been the wholesale closure of public toilets, result, they still closed them all. Even our elected in dependant councillor is close to throwing the towel in because of her frustration in achieving anything. Save your energy and your blood pressure and just enjoy your van would be my advice in your remaining years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-05-31 10:25 PM What a pointless futile exercise these forums are becoming. And do you think for a moment some petty pen pusher in the council will even give you or I the time of day. .Alos I really do begin to wonder if some of you ever go out in your vans, if you have one that is. Over the months I've seen the same contributors time and time again every time I get an opportunity to log on and check out UK news etc, it's nearly June and your still on here wasting energy giving opinions that no one wants to hear ( including mine here no doubt), go out and spread the milk of human kindness in the real world. I'm currently in Castillon-le Bataille in 28 degrees and have had beautiful non stop sunshine since we arrived in France on the 5th of May, come and try it, I'm convinced it's that crap UK weather that gets you all down. If I can convince just one of you to give up on your ramblings and get your A**** across the channel I think I will have given my share of human kindness. For those that say they prefer the UK I can only say you've either never been here, or have gone to the wrong place, it's a motor homers paradise compared to anywhere in the UK B-) Gower in the drizzle, don't make me laugh.............................. Come of it. You seem to spend as much time as any on here recently, do you imagine others do not have the same internet access as you. I admit that due to circumstances at the moment my wife and I are at home but over the last five years we have averaged about six months a year away, not to bad I reckon. We travel in Europe and the UK and both are great. If your only reason for going away is the weather that is pretty sad. If these forums are such a useless exercise what on earth are you doing contributing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 Perhaps the thought hasn't occured that some folk have dongles and post whilst away from home. I know I do. It is a hobby/pastime for a lot of folk when all is said and done. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted June 1, 2011 Share Posted June 1, 2011 rupert123 - 2011-06-01 10:50 AM 1footinthegrave - 2011-05-31 10:25 PM What a pointless futile exercise these forums are becoming. And do you think for a moment some petty pen pusher in the council will even give you or I the time of day. .Alos I really do begin to wonder if some of you ever go out in your vans, if you have one that is. Over the months I've seen the same contributors time and time again every time I get an opportunity to log on and check out UK news etc, it's nearly June and your still on here wasting energy giving opinions that no one wants to hear ( including mine here no doubt), go out and spread the milk of human kindness in the real world. I'm currently in Castillon-le Bataille in 28 degrees and have had beautiful non stop sunshine since we arrived in France on the 5th of May, come and try it, I'm convinced it's that crap UK weather that gets you all down. If I can convince just one of you to give up on your ramblings and get your A**** across the channel I think I will have given my share of human kindness. For those that say they prefer the UK I can only say you've either never been here, or have gone to the wrong place, it's a motor homers paradise compared to anywhere in the UK B-) Gower in the drizzle, don't make me laugh.............................. Come of it. You seem to spend as much time as any on here recently, do you imagine others do not have the same internet access as you. I admit that due to circumstances at the moment my wife and I are at home but over the last five years we have averaged about six months a year away, not to bad I reckon. We travel in Europe and the UK and both are great. If your only reason for going away is the weather that is pretty sad. If these forums are such a useless exercise what on earth are you doing contributing? Why am I responding once more to you, but I will on this occasion. Because it gives me a laugh to see some contributors inane comments, but just occasionally there is some useful stuff if you can sort the junk out. Not that it is really any of your business but we combine our M/home travel with occasional house sitting. We currently have a sit "job" near Castillon la bataille, Gironde, where the owner has broadband, hence my ability to read and post on here as well as a dongle. Why would you think I'd be the least bothered that you think it pretty sad that we prefer the milder climate of southern France to that of Cymru, ( where we live actually ) or the UK generally ( barbecue summer anyone ) we are also aware through our daughter that since we left on the 5th of May the weather has been crap there. Why would you care or feel the need to comment on our desire not to be cold and watch the rain come down in "Gods own country" when we can be here. We have had so far 26 days of wall to wall sunshine, temps in the mid to high twenties, I make no apologies to say that it is infinitely better. Perhaps it's escaped you but most folk head for the Sun on their holidays. I once heard someone say "there is no such thing as bad weather, just bad clothing" well I prefer my shorts. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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