Agent Fruit Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Hello, I last visited here gathering lots of friendly and helpful opinions about what to buy as my first 'van. Well the good news was that I'm nearly ready to buy. The awful awful news is that the DVLA have just revoked my driving licence on medical grounds, changed it to a medical short licence, and with that goes the right to drive Class C1 vehicles, and 3.5-6.5 tonnes. I'm having great difficulty finding out facts about whether all LWB van conversions are now out of bounds to me or whether some are still going to be ok. I've got one dealer telling me that the Timberland Destiny LWB is Class B, yet it's 3.5 tonnes.....that doesn't make sense to me. Can anyone put me out of my misery and tell me that there are some LWB van conversions or small coachbuilts that I can drive? The two main contenders were the Timberland Destiny and the Burstner Ixeo Time it585. I'm rather dreading the replies.... AF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Momma Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I am sure that you will get some suggestions from forum members. However, just an idea, but why not get a copy of MMM (or similar publication :$ ) and check out the list of vehicles towards the back pages. These generally give you all the Specs including weight, only a suggestion ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Hi AF, Good news!!! I've just looked in MMM and the Burstner it585 is Max 3,300 kg and the Timberland Destinys are all Max 3,500 kg. All are therefore drivable on a standard car licence and do not require class C1. Keith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 If I interpret your post correctly, your right to drive category C1 vehicles has been withdrawn under medical grounds, but you retain the right to drive category B vehicles? (which is not unusual under certain medical grounds). If this is so, then your fears are ungrounded. Category C1 vehicles are those above 3.5t and up to a maximum of 7.5t. Category B vehicles are those up to a maximum of 3.5t (inclusive) Most panel van conversions are within category B in their standard form. A significant number of coachbuilts are also available in category B, though care will need to be taken with the available payload particularly on the medium to large ones. I would re-check your licensing restrictions, but if you are allowed category B, you should still have plenty of choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I can hear Agent Fruit breathing a sigh of relief. Not sure if it would be acceptable if you had a Motorhome rated over 3500 and dropped the rating to 3500. Would really restrict the payload but another possibility maybe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Fruit Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 I hardly dare...... :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D Wow, thank you fellow night owls for your emergency responses. Well what can I say? I've had the most miserable 24 hours thinking that my dream has been shattered, then the dealer said it was ok (dream re-booted), then my Mum said her van was a Class C (dream shattered again), and now I've got my hand on my visa card. It's been one heck of a lesson in 'seize the day'. Looks like the answer is going to be buy heavy and pack light (chance will be a fine thing). Actually on that point, as a complete novice with these things, if I bought a Destiny loaded with extras and put a roofbox on it, full of stuff obviously, and a bike on the back, would that take me over the limit? Thank you. :-D AF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
art338 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Our Rapido when new was 3,800 kgs but reduced to 3,500 to suit my age at that time. Driving is no problem with a standard (car) licence. art Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Fruit Posted June 16, 2011 Author Share Posted June 16, 2011 Art - apologies for my greenness, but how do you reduce the figure? Is it a guesstimate of the maximum weight you'd be carrying, and if you reckon you'll be traveling lighter than the manufacturers had planned on then you recalculate? Also, this magical 3.5 tonnes.....if you have a vehicle that's rated as 3.5 then how do you know if it's the top end of B or the bottom end of C? AF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Fruity, There is no gueswork involved in your quest. Every van has a plate (sometimes 2 !!) - the plate affixed by the convertor should show :- a front axle max load, a rear axle max load, a total allowable max load (the MAM) and a train weight. None of these are negotiable without paying cash to people who can certify your van can take more. With your licence restriction you are limited to vans with a MAM of 3500Kg - end of story. If you are looking at a van - look at the plate, if the MAM is over 3500 you cannot drive it, no matter how you load it. No one is interested in whether you do not take your auntie and her motorbike - if your MAM is over 3500 you are stuffed. However -there are oodles of vans in the sub 3500 Kg category (most are). I have recently had my licence revoked on medical grounds but I am allowed to apply to have it reinstated, after treatment, with over 3.5T enitlement if I pass an HGV medical. Is this open to you? In vino!! Edit - I forgot to add, that it is your responsibility to keep the MAM below 3500Kg - visit a weighbridge if in doubt. It is you who will be fined if caught overweight - not the salesman! So make sure you buy a van that can carry anything you 'must have'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
602 Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Hi, I assume that you no longer have a B+E licence? You are allowed to drive up to and INCLUDING 3500kg MGW. are not allowed to drive 3501kg MGW. You are allowed to tow a trailer with up to 750kg MGW, taking your train weight up to 4250kg MGW, but you are not allowed to mix-and-match ....... you cannot tow a heavier trailer by driving a lighter van. Er... yes you can ... but the combined MGWs of the combination must not excede 3500kg. My understanding is that if you drive a vehicle with a MGW over 3500kg, you will be driving without a licence, so will be uninsured. If you drive a vehicle with a 3500kg MGW, but the ACTUAL laden weight is over 3500kg, then you are guilty of overloading, but are still licenced/insured. In a similar vein, I once teased DVLA. Their advice was that vehicles manufactured before 01-01-1973 were VED exempt. Those manufactured after 01-101-1973 were not exempt. I asked them "What about vehicles manufactured ON 01-01-1973?. :-D 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Fruit Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 Aultymer - yes, when I have to reapply for my licence in 9 months time, IF it is reinstated in full I can then apply for C1 and D1 again with a medical. It's all very upsetting as I've been diagnosed with a condition aged 43, that I've had all my life and that doesn't affect my driving at all. Ticks their box though. 602 - you've hit the nail on the head. The magic 3500kg. This is my question. Why would any manufacturer put a plate on a vehicle anywhere near the wrong side of 3500kg? I can't imagine there are many 3600kg plates around. Is it a bit like the 5.99m van? Lastly, am I right in thinking the max payload is the amount that you can carry? On the Destiny it's 650kg I think. Is this average? Does it include load such as water in the tanks? And if you were to stuff a Destiny to the hilt with satellite dishes, surfboards, bike, telly, dog, two people plus a LOT of clobber, any idea roughly how much that sort of load weighs? Just so I get an idea of the sort of available payload (if that's the right term) I should be looking at when I buy. I've seen comments made on this subject but never really understood them. When I do get the van you'll be able recognise me instantly as it'll be scraping along the ground. AF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onecal Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 They do it for the very reason that you have asked about as lots of people are in the same"boat "(motorhome) as your self. Get one under the 3.5 T and load lightly. May I wish you the best of luck in your new motorhome for many years....Enjoy. Regards, Brendan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 The 3.5tonne limit shouldn't be any big deal, the vast majority of motorhomes are below this. I can't offhand think of any PVC's that are above 3.5t (but there will be some). Like any other buyer you will need to assess if payload will meet your needs. We could if we wanted have our Globecar replated from 3.5t to 4t but we have no need to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Agent Fruit - 2011-06-17 9:37 AM Lastly, am I right in thinking the max payload is the amount that you can carry? On the Destiny it's 650kg I think. Is this average? Does it include load such as water in the tanks? And if you were to stuff a Destiny to the hilt with satellite dishes, surfboards, bike, telly, dog, two people plus a LOT of clobber, any idea roughly how much that sort of load weighs? Just so I get an idea of the sort of available payload (if that's the right term) I should be looking at when I buy. I've seen comments made on this subject but never really understood them. AF Payload is technically not a fully defined term, and unfortunately is thus used in different ways by different converters. There is a (voluntary) standard for motorhome weights, and in this, the payload can be considered to be the difference between the MIRO (Mass in Running Order) and the MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) - sometimes still known by the term GVW, or Gross Vehicle Weight. Furthermore, if this standard is used, the MIRO is quoted including an allowance for the weight of the Driver, Fuel, Tools, Water and Gas, etc. If this allowance is not included, then the "payload" could easily be some 200kg (or more) less than might otherwise appear. Timberland do not quote an MIRO figure, instead using the terminology "Vehicle Weight (Unladen)" when working out their quoted "payload". My suspicion would be that this figure does not include the above allowances. If you are buying new, I would be inclined to check with Timberland just what is included in the "Vehicle Weight (Unladen)" figure. IMO, a "payload" of 650kg if the allowance as above has already been included is towards the top end of the value you are going to get on a 3500kg 'van, and should be perfectly adequate for two person (not forgetting the dog) use. (It's obviously always possible to overload a vehicle if you really try). If the "payload" has been calculated without already including the above allowances, things might be slightly different. People do tour for extended periods with vans with a real user payload of 400kg or so, but somewhat more care would be needed on what is carried. In either case, if your practice allowed, running with reduced fresh water always ups the available capacity. Another thing to be aware of is that some owners of Ducato PVCs have reported being very close to the maximum axle weight on the front axle, before any additional load is added. This appears to be most prevalent when the bigger engine and auto gearbox has been specified, (and I suspect also if the conversion is "front heavy"). With little rear overhang on these vehicles, it is difficult to arrange loads such that they don't add to the front axle weight, and as such, the theoretically available maximum "payload" may not be legally available. I hope that isn't information overlaod, and I'm sure that, with a bit of research, you'll get a van that fits your purpose. Good Luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Fruit Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 That's really enlightening information - thank you. I didn't know about the front and back axle payloads being limited too. I can see that it could be a problem with all the gear being up front. When being weighed perhaps rather than being in the driving seat one should be, as Elbow's album suggests, Asleep In The Back..... Thanks for all the very helpful info and fear allaying. AF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 It may be worth a mention that 3.5 ton is also a magic number in the EU as over 3.5 tons brings all sorts of licence and other requirements for the indiginious population. As a result a great many M/homes manufactured in the EU come as a 3.5 but can be upgraded by the maufacturer. Rapidos are 3.5 or 3.8 ton ,( some models heavier), usually sold as a 3.5 but return the plate to the maufacturer and they will send out a 3.8 plate (at a cost) Rgds Just to add that it maybe more to do with Mr Alko and the chassis extensions he sells, as the majority of m/home builders just plonk the body on the chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Hi Agent Fruit The Burstner Ixeo Time IT585 starts on a 3300kg MAM but can also be ordered on the 3500kg MAM chassis. MTPLM (or MAM, GVW) (Gross Weight), kg 3.300 (MIRO (Unladen Weight) *, app. kg 2.790 Payload, app. kg 510 MIRO (mass in running order) appears to be calculated allowing for Gas/Water/Driver /etc.,but no front/rear axle max weight figures given. With the 3500kg MAM chassis, it would give a payload around 700kg, which should be more than adequate. See the technical spec here:- http://www.buerstner.com/uk/motorhomes/ixeo_class/ixeo_time/floor_plans/details/model/ixeo-time-it-585_default.html MMM also have a review here:- http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/Motorhomes/Reviews/Motorhomes/Motorhome-review-B-rstner-Ixeo-Time-it-585/_ch1_rw557 (Our Autocruise Sportstar (6m Low Profile) is on the 3500kg chassis & has an actual MIRO of 3105kg including Awning, etc., giving a payload of 395kg, which we find adequate.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent Fruit Posted June 17, 2011 Author Share Posted June 17, 2011 Thanks for that. Funnily enough I was just looking at the Burstner website and on the Ixeo time page it says "all models with 3.5t registration", however I had heard also that it was 3.3t today. So with this business about what has and hasn't been included in the weight figures, I'm assuming the basic question I need to be asking the dealer is how much weight capacity have I got over and above the vehicle with it's fuel and water tanks full? AF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted June 17, 2011 Share Posted June 17, 2011 Fruity, you can ask the dealer anything you want but I am afraid the answer you get will not help you. Published payloads are at best a guide and at worst a marketing tool which has as much relevance as the colour of the fabrics. Bear in mind that even if a van were to arrive on the forecourt at the published mass and with the published payload available, then everything that is then added comes off that payload. This includes things like gas bottles, awnings, bedding and the kettle, to mention just a few of the necessities that eat into a payload. The only way to know how much you can load on is to take the van to a weighbridge before you add anything and subtract that from the magic 3.5T. - then you know the payload! But it's all part of the fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
602 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 602 - you've hit the nail on the head. The magic 3500kg. This is my question. Why would any manufacturer put a plate on a vehicle anywhere near the wrong side of 3500kg? I can't imagine there are many 3600kg plates around. Hi AF, I understand that there is one version of Land Rover Defender that has a MGW just a smidgen over 3500kg. Be aware that its the ACTUAL weight of of your van, at the time that it is stopped that counts. If your wife is sitting in the passeger seat, eating a Cornish pastie, she has to remain in the passenger seat, but it probably doesn't matter if she finishes her snack. You are allowed to be overweight travelling to and from a pre-arranged check-weigh ..... but a Jobsworth CAN demand that you unload the excess at the side of the road, if it is safe to do so. It is permitted for a vehicle to get heavier during a journey, I think by about 5%. How can that happen? Possibly by taking on rain water, or your wife enjoying too many pasties. Demand a weigh-bridge certificate fron the dealer, make it part of the "suitable for use" requirement. Make sure all tanks are full, etc. (Be aware that one dealer was selling American campers that were too big to be allowed on UK roads). Find our where your nearest weigh-bridge is located. The will be a charge, a few pounds. Some places will do it for free if you don't need a certificate. Personally, I'd rather have a certificate, at least in the early days. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 602 - 2011-06-18 6:43 AM You are allowed to be overweight travelling to and from a pre-arranged check-weigh ..... but a Jobsworth CAN demand that you unload the excess at the side of the road, if it is safe to do so. It is permitted for a vehicle to get heavier during a journey, I think by about 5%. How can that happen? Possibly by taking on rain water, or your wife enjoying too many pasties. 602 5% of 3500 is 175kg, this was posted on the Hymer Club Forum last week:- "At the end of last week on the M1, Nottinghamshire Police directed a motohome onto a weight check site on the Trowell Services,operated by VOSA ( Vehicle and Operator Services Agency, the old Ministry of Transport to most of us) . They were using portable weighing pads and found the veicle to be overweight on both axles to a total 160kgs. The driver was given an on the spot fine of £60 per axle, £120 in total and the vehicle issued with a GV9 Prohibition Notice. This was a restricted one that allowed the journey to be completed, with the excess weight then to be removed before before it could return onto the public roads. In extreme cases they can issue total prohibition notices that prohibits the movement of the vehicle at all until the weight has been reduced. THE INTERESTING THING IN ALL THIS IS THAT THE MINISTRY MEN ALLEGEDLY TOLD THE DRIVER THEY WERE STARTING A NEW PROJECT IN MOTORHOME WEIGHING AS THEY BELIEVE THAT UPTO 95% ARE BEING USED WHILST OVERWEIGHT. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Agent Fruit - 2011-06-17 10:30 PM Thanks for that. Funnily enough I was just looking at the Burstner website and on the Ixeo time page it says "all models with 3.5t registration", however I had heard also that it was 3.3t today. So with this business about what has and hasn't been included in the weight figures, I'm assuming the basic question I need to be asking the dealer is how much weight capacity have I got over and above the vehicle with it's fuel and water tanks full? AF, Do your own research very carefully, making sure you have understood fully what all the terms mean, and how they have been interpreted by the manufacturer of the vans that interest you. Contrary to what is implied by one poster above, it is possible to buy a van with a MAM over 3,500kg, and then have it plated down to 3,500kg. Doing this will present two practical challenges. First, it will be illegal for you to drive the van until the re-plating exercise has been completed. Second, vans are usually only sold with MAMs over 3,500kg because they are inherently heavy vehicles, and need an MAM exceeding 3,500kg in order to give a workable payload. So, if you plate down, you are liable to have a very small payload. Be especially cautious of quoted payloads, and of quoted Mass in Running Order (MIRO, or similar terminology) and of Unladen Weight (or Unladen Mass). You will find that many such are quoted on the most basic version of the van in question, usually with the lowest powered engine option. It is, as stated above, usual (but not compulsory) to quote these with gas, fresh water, and fuel, reservoirs all 90% full, and a driver at 75kg. However, some manufacturers quote at 100% full, but not necessarily for all reservoirs. So, you may find payload quoted with full fuel and 90% water and gas. Be aware that whereas a gas locker may hold, say, two 13kg gas cylinders, the 90% capacity quoted may well relate to one cylinder only. So, the weight of a second cylinder, if added, will come from your payload. 13kg is the weight of the gas, so a full cylinder will weigh 13kg plus the weight of the cylinder (usually a steel cylinder weighing about 15kg), about 28kg total. So, a 13kg cylinder, 90% full, will have 11.7kg gas, plus 15 kg cylinder weight, or 26.7kg total. Installing a full cylinder will thus remove a negligible 1.3kg from your payload but, if you start off with two full 13kg cylinders, you will have lost nearly 30kg of payload. While on gas, be aware that most (I think) of the German manufacturers quote 11kg gas cylinders. The trick here is that the standard German 11kg cylinder is aluminium, not steel, with a self-weight of only 5kg or so. So, if only one 11kg cylinder at 90% full is quoted, the total taken into account will be only 15kg. If you then install 2 x 13kg steel cylinders, you will have a total load for gas, when both are full, of 56kg, so a little over 40kg of your quoted payload will have just disappeared! Water is easy. 1 litre of water weighs 1kg. So, a 100L tank will hold 100kg water when full, and 90kg when 90% full. Thus, filling the tank will take 10kg from your payload if payload is quoted with fresh water tank 90% full. Diesel fuel weighs about 0.85kg per litre so, providing you know the capacity of the fuel tank (most seem to be about 80 litres) the add for full is fairly straightforward. The 75kg driver is an allowance, If you weigh more, the difference comes from payload (but if you weigh less, you can claim back the difference!). However, the weights of all passengers, dogs, cats, budgerigars, gerbils, or what have you, come from payload. Be aware of the weights of all options, extras, or "packs". Whatever you add, or specify, will come from payload: that wind out awning, the bike rack, solar panels, satellite dish, additional battery, everything and anything you place in or on your van comes out of payload. The manufacturer's MIRO is allowed to be up to 5% over. This is to allow for the fact that much of the framing and interior of a motorhome is timber, or timber derived, and the density and moisture content, and hence actual weight, of these elements is variable. Thus a MIRO quoted at 2800kg can reasonably be up to 2940kg and still be within the allowance. But, that extra 140kg comes straight off your payload. After you take account of that little lot, what is left of for your clothes, food, toys, liquids, books etc etc. For all these reasons, providing the payload is quoted with gas, water and fuel at 90% full, and the driver is quoted at a nominal 75kg, you will need, to give a reasonably workable payload, to look for better than 500kg. If no allowance for gas, water, fuel or driver is quoted, you just have to do the arithmetic yourself. So, you could ask the dealer, but my expectation he will merely eye your bulging wallet, calculate his commission, shut one or both eyes, cross as many fingers and toes as possible and the say "ooohh yes Sir, a more than adequate payload for normal requirements, very generous indeed", without the slightest knowledge of what any of that means. So, back full circle to the beginning, if you want to know, work it out for yourself. It really is the only way. Sorry! :-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
602 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 However, the weights of all passengers, dogs, cats, budgerigars, gerbils, or what have you, come from payload. Hi, The police noticed a Transit sized van at side of the motorway, with the driver kicking seven shades out of the bodywork. He explained that the van had a one ton payload, but he was carrying two tons of live pigeons, so he had to keep at least 50% of them airbourne.. 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Where panel-van conversions (PVCs) are concerned, it would be unusual for a motorhome marketed with a 3500kg MAM chassis to have an inadequate payload. This is simply because the basic concept of a PVC means that the complement of people, the quantity of water and gas, and the amount of 'luggage' that can be carried are relatively restricted. This will be apparent from the PVC section of MMM magazine's "Buyer' Guide" where most 3500kg MAM PVC models are shown as having a payload of at least 500kg. Realistically, if a driver with a 'B' driving licence purchased a 3500kg MAM PVC, he/she should have little concern regarding vehicle-weight-related issues. More care needs to be taken where 'coachbuilt' motorhomes are concerned, but a smallish (say up to 6.5m in length) low-profile design on a 3500kg MAM chassis should easily provide sufficient payload unless the intention is to smuggle gold bullion as a side-line. The trouble often comes when motorhome manufacturers produce relatively large family-oriented designs on 3500kg MAM chassis (clearly targetting youngish customers having only the basic 'car' B driving licence entitlement) and the unwary buyer overlooks the very limited payload such vehicles will be able to carry in 'normal' use and still remain below the 3500kg threshold. MMM's Buyers' Guide can provide a degree of warning - for example, Pilote's Aventura A710 AEGA is a 3500kg MAM 7.10m-long overcab design with berths and belted-seats for 6 people, a 130litre water tank and a massive fridge-freezer. The quoted payload is 515kg - yeah, right!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harvey Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I have a 'one off' conversion on a long wheelbase, high roof, Renault Master. It is approx 5.5 meters long. It has two ( one each side ) heavy 'GH' brand awnings. When it was last MOT'd it was empty except for two gas bottles and few odds and sods plus 'some' water and 'some' diesel. The 'presented weight' , which included the 15 stone tester was 2974kg. The GVW / MAM is 3,500. I am more than happy with that. I would think that most panel van conversions would come out at around about similar weights. Harvey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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