postnote Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I wonder if there is someone out there such as Brian Kirby who can clarify a matter for me. I had thought about buying a motorbike to put into the garage of our 696g. However I have now thought it would be far more practicable to tow a car, I have heard that in some European countries such as France, they make you detach your car from an ‘A’ frame and drive it. I know we can legally use ‘A’ frame towing systems in the UK, but is illegal to tow a car in Europe using an ‘A’ frame system or just another local police fad? I have been to several MH dealers for advice and they either contradict each other or don’t know. Your help and knowledge would be appreciated. (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Why not add in that you want to re-fill Calor cylinders with one of those cheap adapters from Ebay whilst 'A' framing and add that 'polarity' changers are a load of rubbish? That should stir up a few replies if you are bored! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Payback time. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postnote Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 aultymer - 2011-06-21 10:48 PM Why not add in that you want to re-fill Calor cylinders with one of those cheap adapters from Ebay whilst 'A' framing and add that 'polarity' changers are a load of rubbish? That should stir up a few replies if you are bored! Thanks that was helpful, wish I had your knowledge base. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 postnote - 2011-06-21 10:37 PM I wonder if there is someone out there such as Brian Kirby who can clarify a matter for me. I had thought about buying a motorbike to put into the garage of our 696g. However I have now thought it would be far more practicable to tow a car, I have heard that in some European countries such as France, they make you detach your car from an ‘A’ frame and drive it. I know we can legally use ‘A’ frame towing systems in the UK, but is illegal to tow a car in Europe using an ‘A’ frame system or just another local police fad? I have been to several MH dealers for advice and they either contradict each other or don’t know. Your help and knowledge would be appreciated. (?) If you use the forum’s SEARCH facility (in the WELCOME box on top-right of screen) and put “A-frame” (omitting the quotes) in the Keywords box and set the Date limit to “All posts”, you’ll retrieve masses of earlier reading matter. As far as UK motorhome owners are concerned, legality/illegality revolves around whether or not a car being towed on an A-frame as a ‘trailer’ fully complies with the UK’s trailer-related regulations. This has never been tested in a UK court, though it seems likely that, if it were, the traditional, commonplace, method of using an A-frame with an overrun braking system would be considered not to comply. Nowadays, A-frames are available with alternative braking systems that don’t have the overrun type’s limitations, but it’s anybody’s guess how these would be considered in a UK court of law. The basic problem is that what UK A-framing motorcaravanners do is follow a practice imported from the USA where it is definitely legal. In the UK we have regulations that generally make it illegal for one motor vehicle to directly tow another except in particular circumstances. However, these regulations (it is claimed) can be completely circumvented by treating an A-frame-towed car as a ‘trailer’ not as a ‘car’. As this has being going on for years and no motorcaravanner in the UK has (as far as I’m aware) been prosecuted for doing it, the practice has gained respectability, even though its genuine legality has never been legally tested. So your statement “I know we can legally use ‘A’ frame towing systems in the UK…” is not correct – the practice is not legally approved here, though it is certainly tolerated. A-frames have recently begun to be marketed in other EU countries, but there’s often argument in those countries about their legality. In France, all the relevant authorities have stated that it’s illegal for a French-registered motorhome to A-frame-tow a car, but that hasn’t stopped A-frames being marketed in France. It seems to be generally believed there that A-frame towing is fully legal in the UK, so a UK motorcaravanner A-frame-towing a car in France is probably safe enough from prosecution. Spain seems to take a tougher line and there have been occasional reports of UK motorcaravanners being prosecuted in Spain for car-towing via an A-frame. If you wanted to be ‘bomb-proof’ regarding legality, then tow the car on a trailer as every country fully approves that method. Otherwise you’ll need to accept that, at present, there will always be a possibility (however slight) of falling foul of the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postnote Posted June 22, 2011 Author Share Posted June 22, 2011 Thanks Derek, Very informative, at least you have made it clear. In closing I did as you said and searched using A-frame and had no matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briff Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 hi we tow with a frame caratow,and had no problem so far,we did tow smart car on trailer but proberly over weight on rear axle ,hence aframe,we spoke to a lot of people in spain some had been stoped by police but just checked paper work all ok,you hear of these stories but never speek to the people hope this helps.our car is now peugeot 107. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Hi We tow a Citreon C1 on an A frame from towbars-2-towcars with the electronic braking system and/or a motorcycle on a trailer (Unbraked) and never been stopped anywhere either UK or Europe. I have an A4 'letter' which explains all the rules re A frames which I carry with me just in case I get stopped and if you pm me with your address I'll send you a copy. Needless to say, make sure your insurance is in order for both vehicles and remember the lower speed limits when towing ! Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJP Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 "If you wanted to be ‘bomb-proof’ regarding legality, then tow the car on a trailer as every country fully approves that method. Otherwise you’ll need to accept that, at present, there will always be a possibility (however slight) of falling foul of the law." I am more "legal" towing on an A frame than towing a car on a trailer, where I would be definitely illegal as i would be exceeding my towing limit of 1000kg. So, not quite a "bomb-proof" solution. """"As far as UK motorhome owners are concerned, legality/illegality revolves around whether or not a car being towed on an A-frame as a ‘trailer’ fully complies with the UK’s trailer-related regulations. This has never been tested in a UK court, though it seems likely that, if it were, the traditional, commonplace, method of using an A-frame with an overrun braking system would be considered not to comply. (>) (?)""" In YOUR opinion, which may differ from others. On what basis did you form this opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 postnote - 2011-06-22 10:21 AM ...I did as you said and searched using A-frame and had no matches. If you had followed my instructions exactly you would have retrieved a long list of earlier forum threads. Make certain that you have accurately typed A-frame (or A-FRAME) in the Keywords box and that you have selected the 'All posts' option in the Date limit box. If you wanted to reduce the number of threads retrieved by the above Search, you could also type Brian Kirby (or Derek Uzzell) in the Filter by author box as both of us have commented on this subject many times over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postnote Posted June 23, 2011 Author Share Posted June 23, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-06-22 7:04 PM postnote - 2011-06-22 10:21 AM ...I did as you said and searched using A-frame and had no matches. If you had followed my instructions exactly you would have retrieved a long list of earlier forum threads. Make certain that you have accurately typed A-frame (or A-FRAME) in the Keywords box and that you have selected the 'All posts' option in the Date limit box. If you wanted to reduce the number of threads retrieved by the above Search, you could also type Brian Kirby (or Derek Uzzell) in the Filter by author box as both of us have commented on this subject many times over the years. Thanks Derek, I wanted an answer to my question not an a A to B of how to search the site. If you took the trouble to search a topic you will also find plenty of different threads on the same topic. Maybe this is a problem with folk, read the question and give the answer. I didn’t ask how to search the site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertieburstner Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 well done Postnote Derek has taken alot of time and effort to help you. Not sure if he will in the future (lol) ps why not start a new thread about being gassed in the 'van? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 I think we would all be queuing up to do the gassing. What an asshole postnote is to treat a nice guy like Derek Uzell in such a manner. >:-) >:-) >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted June 23, 2011 Share Posted June 23, 2011 "Thanks Derek, I wanted an answer to my question not an a A to B of how to search the site. " You have demonstrated that you are too thick to work the search function without help, so why complain? Wouldn't you be more at home on the 'fun' site? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 Cant believe this numpty is still on here, I thought "IT" was barred weeks ago...... Come on Mod's do your job! and get rid of this divisive and troublesome to$$er Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted June 24, 2011 Share Posted June 24, 2011 DJP - 2011-06-22 6:53 PM "If you wanted to be ‘bomb-proof’ regarding legality, then tow the car on a trailer as every country fully approves that method. Otherwise you’ll need to accept that, at present, there will always be a possibility (however slight) of falling foul of the law." I am more "legal" towing on an A frame than towing a car on a trailer, where I would be definitely illegal as i would be exceeding my towing limit of 1000kg. So, not quite a "bomb-proof" solution. I'm in a similar position with my Hobby that also has a 1000kg towing limit. If I decided to tow, say, a Smart car, the weight-combination of the car plus a trailer would almost certainly exceed that limit and (like you) I'd essentially be 'forced' to opt for towing the Smart via an A-frame. I had assumed that (like you and I) postnote would be aware of his motorhome's towing limit and be well able to decide whether a car-on-trailer approach would be a viable proposition weight-wise. It's nevertheless the case that (provided that the car-on-trailer weight combination does not cause a motorhome's weight limits to be excededed) the car-on-trailer approach fully complies with all countries' laws. DJP - 2011-06-22 6:53 PM """"As far as UK motorhome owners are concerned, legality/illegality revolves around whether or not a car being towed on an A-frame as a ‘trailer’ fully complies with the UK’s trailer-related regulations. This has never been tested in a UK court, though it seems likely that, if it were, the traditional, commonplace, method of using an A-frame with an overrun braking system would be considered not to comply. (>) (?)""" In YOUR opinion, which may differ from others. On what basis did you form this opinion? Yes, of course it's a personal opinion - but it is a considered one and it seems reasonable enough to me. If you do as I suggested to postnote and SEARCH back through the forum using my (or Brian Kirby's) User Name as a filter, you'll become aware of how much discussion there has been on A-frame 'legality'. My own stance is expressed on this earlier thread HTTP://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=18376&start=1 when I said "Me, I've no objections to motorhomes towing cars using an A-frame with a simple over-run braking system. I'm hopeless at reversing without anything being towed behind my motorhome, so an unbraked or braked trailer, a caravan, or a car on an A-frame wouldn't make matters much worse. I can see the attraction of doing it, I believe the practice isn't unsafe and, if I wanted to do it within the UK, I would and hang any regulatory conflict. I'd be less comfortable doing it abroad, however, as I'm reasonably confident that the practice clashes with the national laws of some Continental countries." The Department for Transport's view was publicised on http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml and you'll note Mr Alan Mendelson's comment about the difficulty of achieving legal compliance with inertia (overrun) A-frame braking systems. As far as I'm concerned, if you are towing anything and an inertia braking system is employed, then, logically, that system should automatically disengage during reversing manoeuvres. That's what occurs with caravans and it's obvoius and sensible why this should happen. It doesn't happen, however, with the "traditional, commonplace" type of car-towing A-frame system most motorcaravanners use. If a car is being towed on an A-frame and there's the clear potential for that car's brakes to be applied when the towing vehicle reverses, then that system must surely be considered to be basically flawed. There's no doubt in my mind that, if motorcaravanners had a no-extra-cost choice between the traditional A-frame overrun braking system that CAN inhibit reversing manoeuvres and a braking system that CAN'T, they'd choose the latter. Plainly I don't know whether my views regarding overrun-braked A-frames would be supported in a UK court of law, but (on a 'Reasonable Man' basis) I believe they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
postnote Posted June 25, 2011 Author Share Posted June 25, 2011 JudgeMental - 2011-06-24 5:57 AM Cant believe this numpty is still on here, I thought "IT" was barred weeks ago...... Come on Mod's do your job! and get rid of this divisive and troublesome to$$er And why would you think I had, been have you been telling teacher...Bet you are teachers pet. I'm not even going to lower myself to make a response...... :D I am a mere novice compared to your quantity of posts all of which we have found to be very constructive and informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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