Guest pelmetman Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Any ideas on how to work it out :-S................................My handbook say's I can tow up to 1500k with the short wheelbase transit, my box trailer weighs 500K with 800k payload so at 1300k 200k under:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike B. Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-06-30 6:03 PM Any ideas on how to work it out :-S................................My handbook say's I can tow up to 1500k with the short wheelbase transit, my box trailer weighs 500K with 800k payload so at 1300k 200k under:D So what's the question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I'm starting to repeat myself :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Mike B. - 2011-06-30 6:28 PM So what's the question? Sorry badly worded..............I blame my education :D My camper weighs 2770k.............my log says I can tow a max of 1500k............so is my MGTW.......4270K? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 What does the actual weight plate say? :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Look for the Ford data plate with your VIN on it. It will tell you your MAM, the maximum load for axle 1, that for axle 2, and your GTW. What you can legally tow in UK is your actual laden weight (ALW), plus the actual laden weight of the trailer (subject to neither exceeding respective MAMs, all axles loads being within limits, and the total not exceeding the GTW), also subject to the ALW of the trailer not exceeding Ford's stated maximum trailer weight. However, in France (and possibly elsewhere in mainland Europe) ALW does not count (unless you are overloaded!), and it is the MAMs of tow vehicle and trailer that must be added together and compared to GTW. If the MAM of the trailer exceeds the Ford trailer limit, you will be liable to a fine! Now, try explaining the difference between UK and French interpretation to a French traffic cop who has your credit card in his sights! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Mel B - 2011-06-30 7:16 PM What does the actual weight plate say? :-S Plate says GVM 2770 GTM 3500 Brochure says Gross vehicle weight 2570k Load Capacity 2104k :-S When Dave Newell weighed it :D 2530K Confused of Linc's :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Think I've worked out what I'm trying to find out:-S My GVM is 2770k.............my GTM is 3500k..............so my spare capacity for towing is technically 730k:-S But as my van actually weighed 2530k when Dave weighed it..........so now it works out at 970k spare capacity, of which 500k will be taken up with the trailer weight :-S.........leaving 470 of actual capacity less, 170k for me Sue and Troy = 200k of actual usable capacity 8-)..............don't sound a lot *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 Dave, yours is an older vehicle so may have the old type plate on it. Does it say Train Weight anywhere on the plate and what weight does it say. AND I DON'T MEAN BL**DY HORNBY :-D Just re read your post again. What is the gross weight of your van? Add that to the 1500kl, does that add up to whatever it says on the GVTW section on the plate Full stop :-D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-06-30 7:40 PM Mel B - 2011-06-30 7:16 PM What does the actual weight plate say? :-S Plate says GVM 2770 GTM 3500 Brochure says Gross vehicle weight 2570k Load Capacity 2104k :-S When Dave Newell weighed it :D 2530K Confused of Linc's :-S I assume GVM = Gross Vehicle Mass, and GTM = Gross Train Mass. If so, both are maxima. However, the terminology seems wrong. Your van seems to have a gross vehicle weight (MAM?) of 2770kg, and a Gross Train Weight (presumably) of 3,500kg. Forget the brochure, it has no legal status, all that counts is the vehicle plate. When Dave weighed it, it seems you had 200kg spare load capacity. How useful that may be I have no idea, because you haven't said what was in it at the time. However, you could tow a trailer weighing a maximum of 730kg if your van was loaded to max. You could possibly add most of the 200kg (less 7%) difference between Dave's weighing and the GVM (assuming that means MAM) to the trailer, to give 916kg. However, if you do this, you cannot add any additional weight to the van. From what you say, there is no capacity within the GTW (if that is what GTM means) for you, Sue or Troy. However, you, Sue, and Troy can travel in the van (with the trailer at loaded at 730kg) as weighed by Dave, because your combined weights are 170kg. That would leave you 30kg spare load on the van, which is insufficient for the 7% noseweight you'll need from the trailer to keep it stable (say 55kg) so, with that rear overhang, I reckon your rear axle will be running dangerously close to its limit? One packet of crisps and you'll be into the danger zone! I'd suggest you need to keep the laden trailer down to about 500kg, to keep the necessary noseweight from overloading the van. Not good! Hope this is clear-ish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
602 Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Troy = 200k Hi, Er ..... Troy is used to weigh gold, I think 14 ounces to the pound. I don't think that the Man from the Ministry will accept the argument that the ACT does not specify Avoirdupois. What did you say your van was made of? :-D 602 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 My weighing is done as a guide only, I'd strongly reccomend you take it to a weighbridge for a proer weight check before you do anything else,take Sue and Troy with you and eigh with you all in the van. It might be helpful to post a digital phot of the vin plate, just obscure your VIN No. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Thanks for the input people, I'll take a picture and post it :D I take on board what you say Dave and will make a trip to our local weigh bridge, but we have been on a diet since you weighed us :$ and have had a good declutter and bought lightweight chairs etc :D Plus if we do take the trailer then we will move a lot stuff from the van into it, but as the trailer weighs 500k on its own I might have to think about a smaller trailer or getting "Horace" replated for the extra weight :-S It is a braked trailer...........does that make any difference (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Dave you need to find out off the plate your Gross Train Weight ie. the maximum weight of your combination (van & trailer loaded) Take my van as an example :- Max weight of van loaded 3300kg Max train weight loaded 5500kg Max weight on 1st axle (front) 1600kg Max weight on 2nd axle (rear) 2000kg Breaking this down means :- Just the van itself must not weigh more than 3300kg fully loaded The combination of the van & trailer must not exceed 5500kg fully loaded The front axle must not exceed 1600kg fully loaded The rear axle must not exceed 2000kg fully loaded Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-07-01 7:32 AM..............................It is a braked trailer...........does that make any difference (?) No. Were it unbraked, its MAM would have to be less than 750kg. As it has brakes, the brakes must work. That is all. It seems you might be better off with a much lighter (i.e lower self-weight) trailer. However, start with that plate. Then, as Dave says, take the fully laden van, with everything in, including occupants, to your local weighbridge, and get it weighed. If you tell the operator you want the weights of both axles he should either tell you a) to start with just the front axle on the platform, and then drive the whole van onto the platform, or b) start with the whole van on, and then drive forward to take the front axle just off. In either case the load on the other axle is total van weight minus the weight of the weighed axle. My preference is for b) because the rear will be the heavier, and weighbridges are primarily designed to deal with heavy loads, so may not be so accurate with lower loads. Get a printed weighbridge ticket. Option a) will be set up as though you were making a delivery, and option b) as though you were making a collection. Check that both axles are loaded within limits. Remember you will need some margin for things you may buy as you go (fudge factor), and that any load added behind the rear axle adds disproportionately to the load on the rear axle, but takes some load from the front axle. Remember also that about 7% of the actual laden weight of your trailer (the noseweight) should fall onto the tow hitch, which on your van is a long way behind the rear axle, so will weight-up the rear axle by more than the noseweight alone. Less than 7% may cause instability problems with the trailer, so don't take too many liberties with this. From what you have said so far, it seems the 7% noseweight allowance may determine how much the trailer can weigh. Once you have the van weighed, you will know what remaining load margin it has. Deduct your fudge factor from the margin, divide the remainder by 7, multiply the result by 100, and the figure you now have is the maximum safe laden weight of trailer you should tow. Suppose you have a margin of 75kg, and you decide to allow 20kg fudge factor. 75 - 20 = 55. 55 / 7 = 7.86. 7.86 x 100 = 786kg maximum laden trailer weight. Now check that this does not exceed any stated towing limit. You said 1,500kg is the limit so, subject to that being correct for your van, no problem. Then add 786kg to the actual weight of the van from the weighbridge ticket, and check that this does not exceed the plated Gross Train Weight. If it does, you must work to the difference between the actual weighbridge figure for the van and the plated GTW. Now check the leverage effect on the back axle. Measure the distance between the axle centres of the van in mm (A), and the distance from the rear axle centre to the tow hitch in mm (B). Now divide (B) by (A). Take the resulting figure (less than one, probably near to 0.5), and multiply this by the 55kg noseweight as above. The resulting figure must be added to the noseweight, and then added to the weighbridge figure for the rear axle load. So, assuming (A) above is 3000mm and (B) above is 1,500mm, 1500/3000 = 0.5. Noseweight, as above, = 55kg. 55 x 0.5 = 27.5kg. 55 + 27.5 = 82.5kg. So, 82.5kg must be added to the weighbridge rear axle load. Now check that the total rear axle load, taking account of the trailer noseweight and the leverage effect of the rear overhang, does not exceed the plated load limit for the rear axle. If it does, you must reduce noseweight, and so gross trailer weight, accordingly, to bring the axle load back within limits. In case you wondered, the same leverage reduces the front axle load by 27.5kg, so that the total load applied to the van remains at 55kg. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hopefully picture attached :D...................Re nose weight Brian, my handbook states not less than 25k and no more than 75k. It also starts to go into how much to reduce the gross train weight by for being over a 1000 metres above sea level 8-)...........It's getting more complicated the more I look :-S Might be the best option to change to a smaller trailer ;-)................anybody want a 2 year old box trailer :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hi Dave, That does not look to good, it means the combined weight of your van & trailer fully loaded should not exceed 3500kg What is your vans unladen weight? It can't have a good payload going off the plate. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 nowtelse2do - 2011-07-01 1:30 PM Hi Dave, That does not look to good, it means the combined weight of your van & trailer fully loaded should not exceed 3500kg What is your vans unladen weight? It can't have a good payload going off the plate. Dave Don't know Dave:D...................never weighed it :-S..........But based on the brochure quote of 2570k and although it states a load capacity of 2104k 8-) ...............I reckon that's a typo and 200k is what it should read *-). I would guess with our slimming exercise the van is probably around 2500k now without us :D So by the time we get in and add the trailer 2670k - 3500k = 830k..........less current trailer weight 500k = 330k possible payload :-S ..............looks like a smaller trailer or a replate to 3800k, anybody done that (?).......You know me!....just trying to find the cheapest option :D (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 If its not twin rear wheels then I don't think it will re-plate to 3800kg (stand to be corrected) so I would think a smaller trailer would be your only option. :-( Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keithl Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-07-01 2:39 PM ...or a replate to 3800kg No Dave, Sorry but that isn't the issue here :'( The issue is, why has Ford limited the GTM (ie Mass including Trailer) to 3,500kg? It is probably to do with something like engine/clutch/gearbox power or maybe braking ability. ie The clutch or gearbox may not be able to stand pulling away on a gradient at over 3,500kg, or the brakes are not capable of stopping the vehicle at over 3,500kg. Both are definitely situations that you want to avoid. I would suggest you look at a Ford Transit Forum for advice on towing capabilities of your base vehicle as I am sure others must have run into this problem before. (PS I work in motor vehicle design & manufacture and do get involved with towing capabilities of new vehicles so have a general knowledge of what is involved). Keith. PS Dave posted while I was typing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Dave, I know this is possibly a daft question, but WHY do you REALLY need a trailer? What is it that you intend to carry that can't be put in your van? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 Mel B - 2011-07-01 4:57 PM Dave, I know this is possibly a daft question, but WHY do you REALLY need a trailer? What is it that you intend to carry that can't be put in your van? The mother-in-law :D......................................Only joking ;-)..........The idea was for when we start long terming, the box trailer could double up as guest accommodation, we have had 4 people in the van for one night before 8-)...................but you have to very close friends as there's no hiding your personal plumbing noises(lol) (lol) But we will also have extra stuff to take as well........ When I bought the trailer I asked if my camper was a suitable vehicle to tow it :-S............Trailer salesman like the man from Delmonte "he say yes" *-).................Perhaps I should of asked "If I buy this trailer can I actually carry anything in it?" *-)...........maybe he was a motorhome salesman in a previous life 8-) I have just emailed them to see if they will part exchange it for a smaller trailer..........750k max ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-07-01 2:39 PM nowtelse2do - 2011-07-01 1:30 PM Hi Dave, That does not look to good, it means the combined weight of your van & trailer fully loaded should not exceed 3500kg What is your vans unladen weight? It can't have a good payload going off the plate. Dave Don't know Dave:D...................never weighed it :-S..........But based on the brochure quote of 2570k and although it states a load capacity of 2104k 8-) ...............I reckon that's a typo and 200k is what it should read *-). Dave, that's not a typo that is the weight of the body on the chassis plus you, Sue and Troy fuel, water and everything you carry with you and any attachments you have on the van. The body is classed as part of the load I think you do need to weigh it with everything out and no water in the tanks but with (and I like this bit because it means you spending money) a full tank of diesel. Some may not agree about this last bit but the reason is, if you are touring and you are like us, you will always keep the tank fueled up as much as you can, and as your fuel goes down so does the weight. Anyway its easy to work out the weight of the fuel, as its slightly less than the weight of water = 10 lbs per gallon Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 nowtelse2do - 2011-07-01 5:46 PM 10 lbs per gallon Dave Thanks Dave :D...................I wonder how long it is til we hit £10 per gallon :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted July 1, 2011 Share Posted July 1, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-07-01 6:10 PM nowtelse2do - 2011-07-01 5:46 PM 10 lbs per gallon Dave Thanks Dave :D...................I wonder how long it is til we hit £10 per gallon :D Just depends when the government decide to fetch the troops home from Afghanistan via Saudi Arabia (protecting the citizens I think they call it) £10 would seem like peanuts if that happened. :-D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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