Do designers ever try their products?

[JamesFrance]

Just been for a visit to the river Lot.

 

Our Adria has a fitting on the outside of the galley so that you can use the table outside when the sliding door is open.

 

There is a fine bright led outside light available when on hook-up, which should light up the table top perfectly.

 

The only problem is that when the door is open the light is hidden behind it and useless.

 

This sliding door when open also covers the fridge vents, so when on gas the exhaust fumes are funneled to inside the van.

 

Being a modern Thetford fridge, it keeps lighting itself noisily during the night. The cross double bed beside it has the reading lamps at that end so that you are meant to sleep with your head beside it.

 

What a pity to spoil an otherwise excellent design with a few poor details, but this seems to be common with motorhome builders.

 

 

[euroserv]

James,

 

I wonder if any of the magazine testers that thoroughly evaluate these vehicles have ever noticed these stupid design errors, and if they had did, did they have the conkers to actually say so?

 

Doubt it. It's like they neither drive nor sleep in them at all. Nice photo's though.

 

Nick

[fred22]

No I'm sure they don't.

We had a van where the 13amp sockets were fitted so close to the work surface is was difficult to get the plugs in.

This work surface was the only place you could put the TV and the aerial socket was fitted next to the 13 amp sockets ,so you had to move the TV off the work surface to put the kettle on.

[Guest JudgeMental]

JamesFrance - 2011-07-07 4:17 PM

 

Just been for a visit to the river Lot.

 

Our Adria has a fitting on the outside of the galley so that you can use the table outside when the sliding door is open.

 

There is a fine bright led outside light available when on hook-up, which should light up the table top perfectly.

 

The only problem is that when the door is open the light is hidden behind it and useless.

 

This sliding door when open also covers the fridge vents, so when on gas the exhaust fumes are funneled to inside the van.

 

Being a modern Thetford fridge, it keeps lighting itself noisily during the night. The cross double bed beside it has the reading lamps at that end so that you are meant to sleep with your head beside it.

 

What a pity to spoil an otherwise excellent design with a few poor details, but this seems to be common with motorhome builders.

 

 

Even worse...

 

if you remove rear door panels ( to fit bike rack) you will find there is absolutely no insulation on rear wall...this is why Reimo do an insulated silver panel to hang over opening (bloody awful thing!)

 

I saw some Germans with one on an Aire on way home with van..I now know why!. floor/walls/ceiling insulalation fine, but where you sleep the whole rear wall zilch!. I have complained to dealer and to Adria. dealer said the told me Possl/Globecars where better insulated (which he did :-S)

 

saying all this we LOVE the van, unlikely to go sking and would not change it for anything...except I wish I had bought an auto version, as I seem to be always shifting gears through the 6 speed box *-)

[colin]

On our Globecar the heater control is opposite rearseat at tightest point, if you walk from front to back (or visa versa) you adjust the heat setting with your hip *-) when I get 'a round tuit' I'll fit a guard

[Usinmyknaus]

Of course not, the primary aim is to win awards. The secondary objective is a "Wow Factor" of sufficient instensity to beguile customers into suspending their own common sense in the showroom!

 

Simples.

 

Bob :-)

[postnote]

Who really cares, they don’t, as we will still like lemmings being drawn to a motor home that appeals and buy it. The result we moan to each other and not on mass. That is why nothing ever gets done. >:-(

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

In short I don't think they do in many cases. Have looked at, and owned quite a few vans over the years, one glaring omission we find time and again is no draining board, obviously the design teams never wash up, or expect us all to eat out ! !

[yrocker]

There you are.

 

All good reasons to build your own!

 

You can think it through and put everything exactly where you need it!

[Brian Kirby]

Probably not, at least not the the same sense that we try them. My impression is that, with few exceptions, those involved in designing, making, and selling, motorhomes, are not motorhomers. Many of those involved are young, or youngish, and lack the funds, and spare time, to buy, or really use, their product. Thus, they design for an imagined user, and pattern of use.

 

Then there is us lot, the great buying public, who are liable to be far more impressed with appearances (especially those who buy more or less on impulse), than with practicalities.

 

The onus falls on the magazines to "out" the flaws. However, many of the vans made are produced by very large groups, who closely guard access to their vans. They will let the press look, on their terms, at product or range launches, but are far more chary about letting them loose down the road with a particular van.

 

If it is true the manufacturers need the press reviews to sanctify their products, it is equally true that the press needs advertising revenue to survive. There is an uneasy truce in which neither side has the edge.

 

Consider also that a long term test means a van must be registered, and then used, so cannot subsequently be sold as new. Given the price of a van, that becomes quite a high price to pay for what may be a less than glowing appraisal. So, why take the risk? I am told that vans for long term test are a bit like hens teeth - rare! I am also told that the long term test is where, even for experienced testers, the actual workability of layouts and details is discovered. That things that appear dotty at first sight prove to work well in practise, and things that do not at first appear poorly designed or sited turn out to be difficult, or irritating, in use. If that is true for the experienced tester, how much more true must it be for the average punter? We buy crap, because we can't identify it.

 

Our problem, as consumers, is that we don't have the means to comment back to the manufacturer after we buy. That is the manufacturer's fault, because so few provide a feed-back loop in the process. It seems their perception is that, despite their cost, vans are basically fashion goods, so it is not worth refining and improving a model, and far better to keep bringing out "new" models instead, that generate far more press excitement and publicity. Therefore, the adverse comments that might be gathered to improve the breed aren't gathered, because next year's breed will be different, and all those comments that were expensive to sift and categorise will thus be rendered irrelevant.

 

In truth, in the world we inhabit, I can't seem much changing in the foreseeable future, unless we can somehow signal to a whole industry that we would appreciate a far more evolutionary approach to product development. If this could be done, to pick just one possible benefit at random, that bete noire of the industry, availability of spares, would be sharply improved, because the shape, and colour, of the bits, and so their interchangeability, would remain constant over much longer periods.

[Robinhood]

Brian Kirby - 2011-07-08 12:45 PM

 

Our problem, as consumers, is that we don't have the means to comment back to the manufacturer after we buy. That is the manufacturer's fault, because so few provide a feed-back loop in the process. It seems their perception is that, despite their cost, vans are basically fashion goods, so it is not worth refining and improving a model, and far better to keep bringing out "new" models instead, that generate far more press excitement and publicity. Therefore, the adverse comments that might be gathered to improve the breed aren't gathered, because next year's breed will be different, and all those comments that were expensive to sift and categorise will thus be rendered irrelevant.

 

There's an element of truth in what you say, Brian, but having had a good few 'vans over the years, and having repeatedly absorbed the common complaints about our pastime, I still find it difficult to believe that certain basic problems haven't been eliminated as parrt of general design.

 

Just as an example, I would gladly sacrifice a small amount of payload (or balance it by removing some of the superfluous trim) to have a shower tray installed that didn't involve me "walking on eggshells" in fear of it cracking (especially where said shower tray also comprises the whole of the "bathroom" floor, rather than being in a dedicated compartment).

 

I've had two crack on different 'vans, and it seems to be one of the most common problems complained about (exacerbated, as you so rightly say, by the lack of availability of spare parts as the design has changed).

 

I could highlight other trends in modern 'vans that I'm not too impressed with, but once started....... ;-)

[postnote]

Robinhood - 2011-07-08 1:08 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2011-07-08 12:45 PM

 

Our problem, as consumers, is that we don't have the means to comment back to the manufacturer after we buy. That is the manufacturer's fault, because so few provide a feed-back loop in the process. It seems their perception is that, despite their cost, vans are basically fashion goods, so it is not worth refining and improving a model, and far better to keep bringing out "new" models instead, that generate far more press excitement and publicity. Therefore, the adverse comments that might be gathered to improve the breed aren't gathered, because next year's breed will be different, and all those comments that were expensive to sift and categorise will thus be rendered irrelevant.

Maybe one avenue is using these forums to vent our MH problems, I realise it could then be construed as slander or whatever technical term you may wish to use. But the manufactures have the right of reply. More often they keep silent and hope the problem goes away. Look at other British companies with this ethos, customers do go away and the company goes down the tubes lose of jobs etc.

 

Why don’t we follow in the footsteps of the Germans in manufacturing? Make the product good and be responsive to change.

>:-)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

The above poster mentions Germany, and oddly enough I recently had temptation put in my way by seeing and viewing a Burstner couchbuilt, fabulous van on a Merc chassis, and very nearly put an offer in for it. However on reflection it occurred to me that all of the "kitchen" including as it did large fridge freezer, microwave oven, the on-board fresh water tank, and gas bottle locker that took two 13Kg bottles, were all on the nearside of the vehicle, surely that is not good design, although the overall product seemed to tick all the boxes, even having a large sink and a draining board.But the thought of driving an inherently lop sided vehicle put me off completely. Or perhaps they had fitted uprated springs just on the nearside ! !

[bolero boy]

Brian Kirby - 2011-07-08 12:45 PM

 

My impression is that, with few exceptions, those involved in designing, making, and selling, motorhomes, are not motorhomers.

 

............and mine, Brian!

 

I was amazed to read in MMM July 2011 p149 that the new Managing Editor (Daniel Attwood) was a motorhoming virgin, using the Ixeo Time it585 for their maiden voyage!

I would have thought someone in this prestigeous position within the motorhoming world would have had some experience of this environment.

Could you possibly imagine the editor of Car or What Car magazine not being a driver?

[Guest pelmetman]

I used to think my spare tyre was in the most awkward position.................but at least I've got one:D

[malc d]

I think this is a situation where it is better dealing direct with smaller manufacturers, where the makers and the users actually meet.

 

Those vans 'evolve' over time because users suggestions are heard by the builders.

 

 

 

[breakaleg]

it's the little things isn't it, like the toilet roll holder placed in the middle of your back, so you can't sit on the toilet (because the toilet roll is in the small of your back, and it would need an automatic paper feed to use it, we had to have the holder removed, the holes filled, and now the toilet roll hangs on a piece of string. also, the table in the wardrobe, what a nightmare of a place to store a table.but apart from that, the van works well, nice inset stainless steel draining board.

Pete

[Tony Jones]

malc d - 2011-07-08 3:30 PM

 

I think this is a situation where it is better dealing direct with smaller manufacturers, where the makers and the users actually meet.

 

Those vans 'evolve' over time because users suggestions are heard by the builders.

 

 

 

I agree Malcolm. Our manufacturer has been great with both "niggles" and suggested modifications.

Only thing is, you have to be able to deal with the envy when you see a slightly newer van than yours with some minor improvement or other!

[crinklystarfish]

Many manufacturers (but not all) do indeed come up with some howlers and it's hard to imagine them actually testing the product in real world scenarios. Bling is King.

It's tempting to state that we should wise up and not buy rubbish, but in fairness, some of the more subtle design faults are not that easy to spot whilst simply poking around at shows, it really is the case that even the most experienced can miss things that become a real pain once actually on the road.

The motorhoming press, as self-proclaimed experts, should play a more critical role - even given their restricted access to some models. There are two main problems with that though. Reality dictates they have to protect their advertising revenue, and many of the journos are less than 'expert' and indeed a little lazy in their thinking. Consequently the (edited) articles end up banging on incessantly about fabric colours and habitation doors on the wrong side instead of the stuff we really should be reading.

As has been said, smaller converters are usually better able to refine their products because of the tighter feedback loop. Murvi are a good example.

There's no quick and easy answer. Manufacturers have to take some responsibility for pumping out tat, buyers have to take some for buying it, and the press have to take some for poor critiques.

There is indeed a good case for building your own, or commissioning a converter prepared to build to your own spec. It's the path I'm now personally treading and really is an option worth considering.

[postnote]

1footinthegrave - 2011-07-08 2:05 PM

 

The above poster mentions Germany, and oddly enough I recently had temptation put in my way by seeing and viewing a Burstner couchbuilt, fabulous van on a Merc chassis, and very nearly put an offer in for it. However on reflection it occurred to me that all of the "kitchen" including as it did large fridge freezer, microwave oven, the on-board fresh water tank, and gas bottle locker that took two 13Kg bottles, were all on the nearside of the vehicle, surely that is not good design, although the overall product seemed to tick all the boxes, even having a large sink and a draining board.But the thought of driving an inherently lop sided vehicle put me off completely. Or perhaps they had fitted uprated springs just on the nearside ! !

I'm lead to believe that only the UK versions have an oven fitted. As I said they listen to the market place and act. ;-)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

postnote - 2011-07-08 5:26 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-07-08 2:05 PM

 

The above poster mentions Germany, and oddly enough I recently had temptation put in my way by seeing and viewing a Burstner couchbuilt, fabulous van on a Merc chassis, and very nearly put an offer in for it. However on reflection it occurred to me that all of the "kitchen" including as it did large fridge freezer, microwave oven, the on-board fresh water tank, and gas bottle locker that took two 13Kg bottles, were all on the nearside of the vehicle. The thought of driving an inherently lop sided vehicle put me off completely. Or perhaps they had fitted uprated springs just on the nearside ! !

I'm lead to believe that only the UK versions have an oven fitted. As I said they listen to the market place and act. ;-)

 

That may well be true about a gas oven although the one I looked at had a microwave, that you needed stepladders to reach as would also have also been the case if it had have been a gas oven instead. But my general point was the layout design having all of the heavy fittings etc on one side of the vehicle seemed at best ill thought out, and possibly lead to handling difficulties.

[Madmaggott]

The pleated blinds on our van, whilst looking very stylish have hardly any thermal properties,unlike the older style flat, silver on the rear, blinds.  We use cut to size insulation sheeting (sort of bubble wrap with foil both sides) to keep the van cool, placing it between the window/rooflight and the blind.  Works a treat but why don't the blinds do the job?  I'm sure they're just as bad when touring in the cold weather.

Also, when cleaning out the van, if I try to brush the dirt out through the door it just goes onto the 'doormat' which is fitted on blocks above a well.  This then requires a vacuum cleaner to suck the dirt out.  (I only noticed this fault recently because prior to this spring we had never used the van for more than a week so I'd never felt the need to clean whilst away.)

I find the lack of kitchen workspace a trial too, why fit a full sized oven if there is no place to prep/serve a meal?

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

breakaleg - 2011-07-08 3:46 PMit's the little things isn't it, like the toilet roll holder placed in the middle of your back, so you can't sit on the toilet (because the toilet roll is in the small of your back, and it would need an automatic paper feed to use it, we had to have the holder removed, the holes filled, and now the toilet roll hangs on a piece of string.

8-)8-)..............I've heard of somethings in my time*-)............

Progress eh?:D

[Guest JudgeMental]

Our new Adria van is very much more user friendly in many areas than our last 4 year old coachbuilt. lots of nice thoughtful touches, heater controls that can be reached from bed, two way lighting dito... lots of atmospheric LED lighting, tanks and heavy equipment well positioned and much better weight distribution from earlier Adria's as well. blacked out windows that you can see out off but cant see in etc..etc... so in some areas they do listen and improve but not all....

[Guest pelmetman]

I think those black windows are a backward step, and totally out of keeping with any form of camping*-)...................Maybe I'm just old fashioned Judge:D