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Gas prices going up, I'll switch to Electricity


Guest 1footinthegrave

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Guest 1footinthegrave
Oh no I can't save any money by doing that after all, most of our electricity is produced by gas powered generators so that goes up as well, what a nonsensical decision. But millions of tons of coal just below our feet, mmm :-S
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Does it matter where the power comes from the bottom line is that our utilities companies are owned by the French and Germans and the profits are shifted back to their respective countries and not back into our economy. >:-)

 

I’m all for privatisation as public owned companies think they have a god given right to retire early, vast pay rises and spend less time at work, whereas privatised companies don’t have an unlimited well of money, such as the tax payer. But I digress.

There should have been a poison pill added to each utility company that was privatised, where full foreign ownership would not be permissible.

 

One prime example and yes the Germans again. >:-) They took over and it went a bit like this.

Thames Water was acquired by, yes you’ve guessed the German utility company RWE and following several years of criticism about failed leakage targets, RWE announced on 17 October 2006 that it would sell Thames Water to Kemble Water Limited for £ 4.8 billion (since Thames Water had a pro forma net debt of £3.2 billion, this implied an enterprise value of £8.0 billion).

 

Up to 2006, Thames Water was repeatedly criticised for the amount of water that leaked from its pipes by the industry regulator Ofwat and although fined for this, it was never paid as the company came to an agreement to invest more. They did. They sold the company and took the proceeds back to yes your right again Germany. >:-)

In May 2006 the leakage was nearly 900 megalitres per day and in June that year Thames Water missed its target for reducing leakages for the third year in a row. But announced a 31% rise in pre-tax profits to £346.5m.

 

The game is rape the industry, leave it in tatters and let someone else pay the bill. Yes you got it us and this time NOT the Germans. >:-)

 

Next for mass industrial rape, Greece on the cheap.

*-)

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1footinthegrave - 2011-07-09 6:32 AM

 

Oh no I can't save any money by doing that after all, most of our electricity is produced by gas powered generators so that goes up as well, what a nonsensical decision. But millions of tons of coal just below our feet, mmm :-S

I know but where are all the miners now.......Germany :D

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Certainly think solar panels are part of the answer.

 

My neighbour has them all over his south facing roof. He has free electricity now as well as getting paid for what he does not use.

 

He also has an air heat exchanger which worked well even in last winter’s really cold spell. Cost him £8000 but with a £2000 grant the net cost was £6000. I think he paid about £12K for the solar panels but they do seem to be coming down in price.

 

If anyone is sitting on capital on deposit getting low return, it would seem sensible to use that capital to save ever increasing energy bills. Also by improving your home by making it far less expensive to run, you will probably increase its value.

 

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CliveH - 2011-07-10 9:06 AM

 

Certainly think solar panels are part of the answer.

 

My neighbour has them all over his south facing roof. He has free electricity now as well as getting paid for what he does not use.

 

He also has an air heat exchanger which worked well even in last winter’s really cold spell. Cost him £8000 but with a £2000 grant the net cost was £6000. I think he paid about £12K for the solar panels but they do seem to be coming down in price.

 

If anyone is sitting on capital on deposit getting low return, it would seem sensible to use that capital to save ever increasing energy bills. Also by improving your home by making it far less expensive to run, you will probably increase its value.

 

Clive, Solar panels are one of the least cost-effective ways of combating climate change and will take 100 years to pay back their installation costs, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (Rics) has stated.

 

In a new guide on energy efficiency, Rics said that roof panels for heating water and generating power are unlikely to save enough from bills to make them financially viable in a householder's lifetime. In the case of solar panels to heat water for baths and showers, the institution estimates the payback time from money saved from electricity and gas bills will take more than 100 years – and up to 166 years in the worst case.

 

Photovoltaic (PV) panels for power – and domestic, mast-mounted wind turbines – will take between 50 and 100 years to pay back.

Given that the devices have a maximum lifetime of 30 years, they are never likely to recoup the £3,000 to £20,000 cost of their installation, according to Rics' building cost information service. Instead, it suggested people wanting to cut fuel bills should insulate lofts and cavity walls, install efficient light bulbs and seal windows.

 

By contrast, cavity wall insulation spending £440 would save £145 a year in fuel bills, paying back in three years, while an investment of £325 in extra loft insulation would save £60 annually, paying back in five years.

 

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Guest 1footinthegrave
Wind farms, solar panels, what a load of claptrap. We have a wind farm right on our doorstep and I can tell you more often than not the blades do no turn. Also Wales has just opened a vast solar panel generating station at huge cost that will on a good day they say generate enough power for up to 300 homes as long as they all have a single low energy bulb for lighting, notice I say on a good day, not today though, windless ( no wind turbine generation) and overcast.
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Paul- - 2011-07-10 7:42 PM

 

I've only got a couple of solar panels on the van & they've paid for themselves in just over three years,

 

Its a good job I didn't read all these reports before I bought them *-)

I though we were discussing domestic gas, home not van.:D

 

Do you realise that during the summer months we do not have the infrastructure both inland or offshore to store produced gas. Therefore it is sold to the French and German companies that do have these massive storage facilities. Come the winter months when demand out strips production, yes you guessed it people like British Gas by the gas back at inflated prices that are passed onto us. We have offshore old hydrocarbon reservoirs that could be used for storage, but the old problem investing. We seem to be a nation with the get quick attitude and don’t look to the future.

>:-)

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"We seem to be a nation with the get quick attitude and don’t look to the future. "

I take it you mean a 'get rich quick attitude', doorpost.

 

This attitude was imposed on the UK by the government of M. Thatcher and Co. when getting the max for your mates before being found out became the norm!

 

The only good thing they did was to lock the UK coal reserves away for use in the future - unfortunately even that was botched so that one company could cream off the profit (from easy reserves) at the expense of communities all over the UK.

The coal below our feet will need to be exploited by foreign companies who have the trained miners to do the work. The UK has thrown ours on the scrap heap - great forward planning!

Shame on Blair for not grasping the nettle and resurecting our mining industry.

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Guest 1footinthegrave
My daughter quite recently had a quote for solar panels, capital outlay was £11,000. On paper at least there seemed to be quite substantial benefits quoted over time, but just the small matter of coming up with the 11K. If we went for it at present based on our usage that would take us 22 years to recoup, I'm 66, mmmmmm
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Basil - 2011-07-10 9:06 PM

 

With the greatest respect I believe that Postnote should review his understanding of the payback time for Solar Panels as from his comments he is way off beam.

 

Bas

 

Please explain.

My information comes from the knowledge that I am right, as surveys have proven. Don’t tell me you are gullible to believe the sales persons, ;-) if I am so wrong why government has grants fallen by 80% or is that incorrect?

If I am wrong I stand correct, but I know I’m right. I await you response of fact with

Baited breath (That was a pun, did you pick that one up, no not for you Basil, someone else). :D

 

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Without knowing what the quote was against that seems a rather long payback period. We are looking to install a sub 4Kw (3.95) Solar panel system at a cost of £12250 (though we had quotes down to £11600) that will, based on an 80% SAP output, give savings and payments of £1763 per annum giving a payback time of just under 7 years. Threafter they will be in profit by that amount (£1763) per annum.

 

Even though the payback time is long, the lowering of the expenditure on electricity alone makes it attractive as the costs of that commodity are certainly not going to reduce but increase, thus making the Microgeneration option an even better return.

 

Bas

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postnote - 2011-07-10 10:04 PM

 

Basil - 2011-07-10 9:06 PM

 

With the greatest respect I believe that Postnote should review his understanding of the payback time for Solar Panels as from his comments he is way off beam.

 

Bas

 

Please explain.

My information comes from the knowledge that I am right, as surveys have proven. Don’t tell me you are gullible to believe the sales persons, ;-) if I am so wrong why government has grants fallen by 80% or is that incorrect?

If I am wrong I stand correct, but I know I’m right. I await you response of fact with

Baited breath (That was a pun, did you pick that one up, no not for you Basil, someone else). :D

 

Hi rather than me explaining it to you perhaps you would read the information given on

 

www.energysavingstrust.org.uk

 

Specifically

 

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Sell-your-own-energy/Feed-in-Tariff-scheme

 

look under solar panels. I certainly would not take as gospel anything that a sales person tells me!

 

But basically the grants that as you say the government have reduced, have actually been removed for Solar Panels to be replaced by what is known as FIT (Feed In Tariff) that pays you the 'microgenerator' a payment for each Kw your system produces whether or not you use it or if it is fed back into the National Grid, this is guarranteed for 25 years and is index linked to RPI. Also you get a further payment for each unit fed back to the grid. In addition of course you don't pay for the electricity you generate and use, so your bills reduce.

 

The whole package is worth around £1700 per annum to you and is tax free.

 

Bas

 

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Postnote

 

"Clive, Solar panels are one of the least cost-effective ways of combating climate change and will take 100 years to pay back their installation costs, the Royal Institution of Chartered Surveyors (Rics) has stated. "

 

Firstly - Catastrophic Climate Change (as oppossed to normal 11 year and 22 year climate cycles and orbital varience) is a croc. Made up by a man (Mann) who has lied his way into the history books and is now subject to various investigations in the USA where there is much evidence that he lied to get research grants. I can provide links to these investigations if you are interested.

 

Secondly - Here in the UK we had the Climategate emails that demonstrate just what a croc the alarmist dodgy dossiers are. At long last the Information Commissioner has ruled that the data that the Climate"scientists" refused to release (even tho' they data was paid for by the UK Taxpayer and therefore should be released to other academics as well as any interested third party under the UK FoI Act) must be released to to a group of Academics that have already questioned the dubious statistics used.

 

Thirdly - I do believe that we must use scarce resources better than we do. I am all for renewable energy - but to say that it takes 100 years to recoup the cost seems to me to be nonsence. Now it is estimated that the average fuel bills will be far higher in the future.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CEkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Ffinance%2Fpersonalfinance%2Fconsumertips%2Fhousehold-bills%2F7590805%2F500-energy-bills-landing-on-doormats.html&ei=khUaTuCFBc-AhQf1v9TMBQ&usg=AFQjCNH4y-P0scObLCn6y0qja7h_FalgNA

 

And from our own experience we are paying over £100 as month by DDM to the utility company for both gas and electric. So that is £1200 a year - but we did get just under £200 back a few months ago as the credit had built up.

 

So when you look at buying Solar paneles as an investment and even if you ignore the fact that you can earn money on any excess power you generate - if you can wipe out electric and gas bills by using capital to purchase say, £8000 for Solar Panels and £6000 for an air heat exchanger then that is £14,000 outlay that saves you £1000 a year.

 

That is a 7.14% return - and as I say does not include any return from the excess power produced.

 

Now with depositors struggling to get interest rates of 3.5% gross (2,8% net) in savings accounts - I would suggest that using £14,000 (assuming you have it) to save £1000 a year (and potentially a lot more with the stupid "green taxes" we are all going to suffer) to get such a return is actually a pretty good deal.

 

And if my math is correct - if I am saving £1000 a year and the outlay is just £14,000, then that means I have recouped the set up cost in just 14 years.

 

I have also increased the value of my house substantially and protected myself from future fuel cost increases - either production or tax based.

 

 

 

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Guest 1footinthegrave

"The outlay is just £14,000"

I always think it is ironic that the people that need to budget carefully, and are by definition the ones with less disposal income are least able to take advantage of cost saving measures like solar energy. Duel fuel cars, condensing gas boilers, BOGOF deals and all the rest, oh well.................................. :'(

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CliveH - 2011-07-10 10:36 PM

 

So when you look at buying Solar paneles as an investment and even if you ignore the fact that you can earn money on any excess power you generate - if you can wipe out electric and gas bills by using capital to purchase say, £8000 for Solar Panels and £6000 for an air heat exchanger then that is £14,000 outlay that saves you £1000 a year.

 

 

 

It's better than that as with FIT you get paid for ALL that you generate not just what is fed back into the grid.

By my calculations the return on the Solar Panel investment is actually in the order of 10-12%. Plus you get paid for what goes back to the grid as well. Then there is what you save on your bills on top

 

 

Bas

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1footinthegrave - 2011-07-10 10:41 PM

 

I always think it is ironic that the people that need to budget carefully, and are by definition the ones with less disposal income are least able to take advantage of cost saving measures like solar energy. Duel fuel cars, condensing gas boilers, BOGOF deals and all the rest, oh well.................................. :'(

 

Interestingly it is those that do not install Solar panels, and other 'microgeneration' schemes, that will be paying for the cost of the providing the tariffs to those that do!

 

Bas

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Basil - 2011-07-10 10:45 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-07-10 10:41 PM

 

I always think it is ironic that the people that need to budget carefully, and are by definition the ones with less disposal income are least able to take advantage of cost saving measures like solar energy. Duel fuel cars, condensing gas boilers, BOGOF deals and all the rest, oh well.................................. :'(

 

Interestingly it is those that do not install Solar panels, and other 'microgeneration' schemes, that will be paying for the cost of the providing the tariffs to those that do!

 

Bas

 

So whats new ! ! !

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Basil - 2011-07-10 10:16 PM

 

Without knowing what the quote was against that seems a rather long payback period. We are looking to install a sub 4Kw (3.95) Solar panel system at a cost of £12250 (though we had quotes down to £11600) that will, based on an 80% SAP output, give savings and payments of £1763 per annum giving a payback time of just under 7 years. Thereafter they will be in profit by that amount (£1763) per annum.

 

Even though the payback time is long, the lowering of the expenditure on electricity alone makes it attractive as the costs of that commodity are certainly not going to reduce but increase, thus making the Microgeneration option an even better return.

 

Bas

 

£1763 return on even the £12250 higher quote represents 14.39%! - a return on the original investment in about 7 years.

 

If anyone can get that year in year out then PLEASE let me know!!. I can get this via the likes of Emerging Markets, BRIC and Special Sits funds but the volatility is high and some years the growth can be negative - so for a cautious investor - reducing fuel bills along the lines that I have been looking at is a real long term benefit.

 

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woody. - 2011-07-10 10:46 PM

 

Ok it sounds too good , but , what about these deals with the free panels how does that work ??

 

Ah well, what you are basically doing is leasing your roof area, for 25 years, to a company who will pay the cost of the installation and in return you get the benefit of free use of all the electricity generated is of limitted benefit if you cannot afford the outlay.

 

But this is only a very small part of what is available as THEY get the FIT payment (the big one) that is worth more than to ten times what you are getting! This pays for their installation and they reap the benefit of the tax free, RPI adjusted amounts guaranteed for 25 years.

 

We started off looking at that and the surveyor that came round said to us, and I quote'If they offer you a free installation for your own benefit you really ought to look into paying for it yourself', What a nice man!

 

 

Bas

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