lez Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 HI Thinking of buying a set of snow chains for my Burstner 681 based on a Fiat. Could any one tell me if they would be any use on grass. Thanks Lez Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 They provide a terrific improvement on front wheel drive (or rear wheel drive) grip on wet grass. Whitnessed at York last year. go 4 it if you like muddy fields for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 BUT - don't expect to remain friends with the owner/warden if you use them on a wet and slippery camp site. Especially a Club site! All that endlessly mown grass ripped up! And - you'll have to stop to take the chains off before you can make good your getaway!I foresee a lynching!If it's wet, test the ground before you park. If it is soft, try to find a high, flat spot or, if you can, go elsewhere. When you come to leave, if the exit is up slope from your pitch, try to drive off slightly down slope, or across slope, to get rolling. Highest gear you can pull away in, lightest touch on the throttle to just keep the engine above stall speed, then the biggest sweep possible to turn and keep the momentum going gently as you go up slope. Try, at all costs, to avoid wheelspin. The same is true chains or no chains. If that approach fails, youll just have to resign your self to the indignity of a tow!Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted March 31, 2006 Share Posted March 31, 2006 I have read on a Forum reply posted by a very reliable and knowledgable motor home owner that if you let your tyres down to about 10 PSI, you will not need any other assistance to get out of your predicament, except of course a 12 Volt tyre pump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Brian, I had assumed all you have said would have been done/considered first! And thinking more about it it was not York but Stratford where those with chains drove out and those without were towed out. Puddles rest in the low points but water rises to the high points. I found this on the IOW when we chose a high point in a field to park only to find that the farmer was right, its firmest at the bottom. But without doubt the ground knows you have been over it. 4X4 Motorhome next then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Ranger Lowering tyre pressure MAY help as it will give some extra grip but once your wheels have started spining odds are its to late. Couple of weeks ago missus got astra stuck in meadow her brother couldn't tow it out with his land rover as its clay underneath and all four wheels spun, he had to get his D6 out! Wet fields was why i left the c&c club, turned up at site about 5pm on wet day waited about for 2 hours for warden, when he got there refused to let us park anywhere, even where we where parked on gravel, complete jobs worth! Found a privataly run site about 8pm " No problem mate just park next to toilet block" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel E Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 See also the posting below 'Spikes Spiders ? ? ?'. Incidentally, it's asking a lot of your 12 volt pump to raise a large commercial van tyre from 10 to 50 or 60psi. I leant this when ours started smoking! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 CliveI agree, it is a bit basic, but not everyone seems to have cottoned on yet, so I thought it might come in useful for someone, one day!I've been quite surprised at how many people do try first gear and loads of welly on slippery surfaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 It amazes me Brian how many people buy a front wheel drive motorhome then complain of poor traction on grass! Why don,t they think of this first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranger Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Yes Colin, I think you are quite right when you say if wheels start to spin it is too late anyway. As I have a rear wheel drive motor home and always have, and learned to drive in a pick-up truck with baldish tyres around farm fields from about 10 years old onward, and am a crafty old sod, touch wood have not "yet" had to try the soft tyre theory. But I think what the adviser had in mind is:- a soft tyre would not sink in like a fully inflated one...... I must try it some time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 What suprised me is the appaling traction on my T25 rear wheel drive and engine/gearbox over drive i had thought it would be quite good but its the worse vehicle for traction i've ever had in 30+ years (but I'll still be sad to see it go) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 CliveI guess it's just a question of choice and price. Even if you know rear wheel drive may give better traction on the soft, I suspect that isn't a major concern for most. Interior layouts, decor, size, equipment and price will probably tend to figure larger at the point of purchase, and even if you half suspect your favoured choice may bog down in a muddy field, you aren't going there, are you?Ours is FWD but has an electronic anti slip programme coupled to its ABS. Basically, this applies the brake on a spinning wheel, and if that doesnt work, cuts engine power to just above stall. It does, kind of, work. I caught a very soft patch on a pitch in pouring rain last year. My fault, I should have got out for a proper look, but it was so wet out I didn't! I felt the front begin to sink as we went in, so straight into reverse and out again! It made a few odd noises and the engine chugged a bit on the way out but, out we came nevertheless. We left behind some rather embarrasingly deep tyre marks up the pitch though! We got a special dispensation to park overnight on the (mostly empty) hire chalet tarmac car park after that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Tyke Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Clive I have been driving front wheel drives for over 40 years. Through grass, snow, mud, sand & not got stuck yet. What is the problem with FWD??????????????????/// Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 You must be a miriacle driver. The comparison is quite easy, FWD have about 60% of the weight over the rear non driven wheels. RWD have 60% of the weight over the driven wheels. So in an equal situation, same weight overall, same wet grass, same skilled driver and same tyres and pressures the RWD must do better. Only an AWD can be better than that, then comes diff locks all round. After that you fit the tracks! Sorry, forgot the hovercraft, but they are a bit naff in tight cornering! Regards C. Just thought, the other problem with FWD is the complexity of CV joints etc associated with getting the drive to the steered wheels. OK I know most moderate cars and moderate vans have this now but the reason is one of cost, not excellence in engineering. On road FWD suits most people very well indeed. My wife,s car is front wheel drive. Personally I still like an engine that runs front to back, a proper seperate gearbox that you can slide of the back of the engine to get at the clutch and drive at the back (miniumum) So camper is a 9 year old Merc Sprinter (ABS, Traction control and limited slip diff as standard), Car was a Landrover for 14 years before that a BMW. But for the last 6 months its a similar spec'd Jap 4X4 purely for the quality and reliability of the engineering sad to say. Landrover have blown it with the new Ford Explorer/Discovery at 2.7 tonnes with a cam belt. Same money, much more spec, smoother to drive but poor reliability and more to go wrong. It sometimes scares me when I count up the dosh we have spent on motors. But just look what new motorhomes cost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 I agree with Brian, its not an ideal world so we have to make compromises, re layout, size, cost etc. We tried a rearwheel drive before buying our present FWD, and found it very noisy the salesman said that this was a problem with RWD, another point against it when deciding. as Yorkshire Tyke say's I started driving FWD vehicles in 1964 except for a couple of years all my vehicles have been FWD until a couple of years ago never got stuck. A few winters back when M11 was snow bound and various other roads around the Cambridgeshire/Hertfordshire area were the same, we just ploughed on passing stuck cars and arctics, this was in a Xantia. through several inches of snow. So what's the problem or is it the Drivers!!! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Was the one you tried a Transit perchance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 The front/rear balance isn't always quite so conclusively straightforward as 40/60. Due to its layout our 'van, when laden, runs almost exactly 50/50. So long as I don't try to steer and pull away at the same time, therefore, FWD or RWD should give the same traction.The problem on soft ground is really that the ground bearing pressure from each tyre is greater than the ground can support. Therefore, the tyres sink into the ground until a contact area large enough to restore equilibrium develops. That is where the trick of partially letting down the tyres can work. The softer tyre spreads more under load, so increasing its contact area and lowering its bearing pressure.Each tyre on a motorhome transmits a load in the region of 0.75 - 1 tonne. With a tyre inflated to around 5 BAR the contact area is quire small, and the bearing pressure correspondingly high. Reducing these high tyre inflation pressures (yes - that again) to a (tyre manufacturer's recommended) lower pressure will result in a slightly greater contact area with a small advantage in terms of reduced "pocketing" of the ground. The best solution would probably be to fit wider tyres, although these may also require wheels with wider rims for maximum effect. Whether it's all worth the expense, will depend on how much motorhoming you expect to do on muddy fields.Re FWD/4WD, I once owned a 2CV (FWD). One snowy winter I was stopped in a lane by a Landrover (4WD)driver, saying he'd just had to turn back, because he'd just got stuck in a snowdrift that was blocking the road just round the next bend. If he couldn't get through with 4WD, said he, I wouldn't stand a chance. Couldn't turn there so, on to the snowdrift; found complete with two impressive wheel ruts extending about half way through, left by the Landrover. However, being an optimist, and feeling challenged by Mr 4WD, I decided to try my luck, taking a different line. 16" wheels with soft Michelin X tyres, very light 2CV, no real power from it's little 600cc engine: over it went without the slightest protest. It just wasn't heavy enough to sink into the compacted snow where the Landrover had been. 2CVs 1, Landrovers 0!Now, where can I get a 2CV based camper? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Dwight Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 Brian, Ive got a spare 2cv sitting out the front, it only needs converting. I had a similar experince in Wales many years ago where Land Rovers were stuck on a camp site, I was driving an Austin 1100 we got out and left the Landrovers behind. People dont realize that 4 wheel drives not driven properly will dig themselves in. Yes Clive it was a Transit. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Posted April 2, 2006 Share Posted April 2, 2006 What I didn,t reveal was that at Stratrord under Avon when it was saturated the Fiat with snow chains drove out. I was towed by a tractor! as I was forced to stop in as most stupid place by a helpfull steward. grrrrrr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Two stars, Clive!?? Sorry about the tow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 The method of lowering tyre pressures does work, I've done it to get out of a badly bogged pitch. Drove on not realizing the ground was as soft as it was and the front wheels went straight in up to the rims. Spent the weekend like that, motorhome was near enough level. When it was time to leave I pushed a pair of plastic grip mats as far under the front wheels as possible then let the tyres right down to about 4 PSI. Started the motro and just drove out of the bog, no wheel spin and no drama. I first saw this trick performed on a Jeremy Clarkson program about Iceland. The crazies up there use this method to drive big 4X4s up glaciers but they go down to about 0.5 PSI, that's not a misprint I really did say 0.5 (1/2) PSI. However, to reply to the thread originator, if you plan on travelling into Austria and a few other Alpine type countries in Winter then I beleive you are legally required to have snow chains on. If you think you might need them then yes, get a set. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkshire Tyke Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Yes snow chains are compulsary in Spain, Austria Switzerland, Italy for use in winter Large fines if you are caught out without them - when thet have to rescue you In italy the chains have to have an EEC mark (info in caravan Europe book) or be of a suitable design For our vehicle there are some unsuitable £60 available at Halfords We had to pay £130 for the main truck dealers As the min fine is €100 about £60 we bought the dearer ones Havent used these as yet, but did use those for my previous (transit based) van to get home in this country Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Thanks for confirming that Yorkshire Tyke, I beleived it to be the case but as I haven't driven on the continent for about 20 years wasn't certain. Snow chains may help on grass but as someone else said they won't improve your popularity with site owners. If you're on wet, soft ground just let your tyres down and take it steady. The 12 volt inflators will take a commercial sized tyre back up to full pressure but you will probably need to give it a rest part way. Most of them do tell you in the instructions (you do read the instructions don't you?) not to run them for more than 10 minutes continuously. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Doesn't anyone have leg muscles then? Oh, the joys of using foot-pumps! The only reason you have to give them a rest is that you feel like you're going to collapse with a heart-attack! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted April 3, 2006 Share Posted April 3, 2006 Don't supose i'm the only one on forum that has angina problems so i'll give pumping tyres back up to 44/48lb a miss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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