Is it time for MMM to launch a government campaign to promote a UK Aires network

[Guest pelmetman]

:D..........Is that the longest ever thread title(lol).....But, as MMM is in effect the mouthpiece of the motorhoming fraternity, they are best placed to lobby the government to get local councils to recognize our needs, and of course the benefits to the local economy of having a Aires network in the UK.

If the government is on board then they can make the necessary changes to legislation, and I reckon once they recognize the financial benefits to UK plc, they might be inclined to chivy along our local councils who all seem to suffer from traveler paranoia*-)

Any thoughts Dan the ed?:D     

[chas]

Great idea, but unfortunatly all the councils are skint because of goverment cut backs, and the goverment is too busy spending money on bombing other countrys and finding billions for overseas aid.

 

I think Aires are far down the councils and goverments thought process. :'(

[laimeduck]

Even if it did - can you imagine?

 

First there would be a feasibility study - costing several £millions

Then a group of MP's & jobsworths would have to spend time in France observing (while staying in 5 star hotels of course) another £million

Then a pilot scheme in a well chosen spot - say Brixton? another few £million

Then a police operation to quell the riots that ensue another £million

Then a consultative paper will have to be prepared by a leading barrister or judge - another £million.

Then a public enquiry because an endangered lesser spotted snail orchid might be trampled on - another £million.

10 years on , after £100's million - no more diesel - no more motorhomes, project scrapped!

(And if the MOD get involved - double it!)

 

Moi? - cynical? mais non - mes amis!

:D :D :D

[terryW]

Perhaps we just need to be a bit pro-active, a couple of locations were trialed in Devon including Dawlish and some had to be abandoned through abuse. In my local area the car parks at Welshpool and Newtown allow MH overnight stops but in both cases the long bays have been removed because of a lack of use.I have never actually saw any used.

 

"Use it or loose it but don't abuse it springs to mind"

[Guest pelmetman]

chas - 2011-07-16 8:52 AMGreat idea, but unfortunatly all the councils are skint because of goverment cut backs, and the goverment is too busy spending money on bombing other countrys and finding billions for overseas aid.I think Aires are far down the councils and goverments thought process. :'(

I take your point Chas, but the point to put across is the FINANCIAL benefit to the local economy and in turn their wages and pensions;-).............They have aires abroad not because of they love campervans, but because it brings in money8-)

Also its easy to start an online petition on the No 10 website, I could start one, but I would just be an individual, now if MMM started one and got all us forum mites to sign it along with other forums, company's etc who have a vested interest in motorhoming such as the manufactures and possibly even the CC and C&CC who might through gritted teeth sign up:D

By starting at the top the government can make the necessary changes to any laws and regulations, that our petty fogging councils would use as an excuse not to do it;-)   

[Derek Uzzell]

pelmetman - 2011-07-16 8:05 AM

 

...as MMM is in effect the mouthpiece of the motorhoming fraternity, they are best placed to lobby the government to get local councils to recognize our needs, and of course the benefits to the local economy of having a Aires network in the UK...

 

I don't see MMM magazine as "the mouthpiece of the motorhome fraternity" anymore than its competitor publications.

 

I'm unconvinced that an 'aires' network in the UK would "of course" benefit the local economy and I'm certain that the idea of lobbying the government via a motorhome magazine is a non-starter.

 

If UK motorcaravanners really want UK aires, they'll need to begin by convincing their own local authorities of the benefits via a properly researched business plan. This means work - lots of work - not delegating responsibility to a magazine. If several local authorities set up 'aires' and these prove successful, then it should encourage others to follow.

 

There has been previous forum discussion about setting up UK aires - this is an example:

 

HTTP://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=16282&start=1

[Andy_C]

The trouble with magazines starting this sort of thing is that they tend to be a bit parochial. A campaign started by one magazine is unlikely to be supported by other magazines. Also, of course, it costs them money with no obvious return.

 

Years ago Motorcaravan Magazine did start such a campaign and even had meetings with MPs I think. It was quietly dropped.

 

Practical Motorhome runs its Nightstop Scheme, which is probably as close as we are going to get to universally accessible privately run stopovers (rather than the 'members only' CS & CL sites run by the C&CC and CC) but it does not get promoted in other magazines.

 

Local authorities already have the power, under existing legislation, to set up 'aires' or at least allow motorhomes to stay overnight, on land in their control. However they are not exempted from the requirement for planning permission for a 'change of use', this is where the Dawlish Warren experiment has come unstuck.

 

Andy

[francisgraham]

Comparing the U.K with France is chalk and cheese. France is enormous and land is very cheap. It's the largest holiday destination in Europe and it's own citizens have always camped in greater numbers than other countries.

I do find it exasperating when certain people take every opportunity to deride the U.K. for its lack of aires, but are there many aires in Denmark, or Sweden or The Netherlands? 

What we do have in this country, and what motorhomers and caravanners in many other countries would be delighted to have, is the huge network of CLs and CSs provided by the two main clubs. In my short motorhoming career I haven't found a CL yet that isn't better than many French aires.

Yes, there are some delightful aires, and I've stayed on them, but some are horrible car-parks, whereas virtually every CL and CS is a spacious area usually large enough for five times more units. I recently stayed on two simple but delightful CLs at £4 and £6 respectively.

I also share the view expressed by another member, that towns and villages would not benefit financially. Deduct the cost of setting it up, laying in the necessary services and, if the aire is to have a small charge, the cost of collecting it, and there'll be little left.

As for the myth that we'll all go and eat in the restaurants and visit the local shops, think on this. If you really want to visit Tenby let's say, and you refuse to go because the local council hasn't provided an aire or two, are you the sort of person who will spend money eating out?

If you're unwilling to shell out a small amount for a CL or a simple site then you're clearly not going to be flashing the cash around the village.

So to answer the OP's question, I think that for any magazine to take up such a campaign would be pointless.

And as for 'travellers paranoia' there's nothing paranoid about worrying about an influx of tinkers if there are suddenly lots of nice aires for them to set up camp on. We've all seen how they can take over a farmer's field, let alone a nicely prepared camping area. I suspect that the traveller problem is far greater on this cramped little island than it is in France.

[crinklystarfish]

I tend to agree that MMM is not the appropriate body, I'd settle for the contributors and editors giving more balanced and constructively critical reviews instead of trotting out the same old tired tripe about upholstery colours, how many can be entertained for drinks and nibbles, and habitation doors being on the wrong side. We can make up our own minds, ta!

Having thought about the aires thing as well, and followed Graham Hadfield's excellent work, I'm personally not convinced they'd be a great idea over here anyway.

IF they were used as intended they would be superb, but that's a big if. There's a funny phenomenon with our culture in that wherever some legitimacy is leant towards this kind of thing then it's only a matter of time before abuse sets in. I spent some years living and working on the waterways and as sure as eggs are eggs any place that was designated as a 'public' mooring would slowly but surely attract an ever increasing amount of 'clutter' to the point where enforcement action would become necessary.

It starts small, with things like foldable chairs, the odd planter and a dog run staked out, but then grows and grows until suddenly there are wheelbarrows, sheds, bikes, scabby vans and more or less anything else you can imagine piled up alongside the facility. I ended up dealing with one bloke who was happily dismantling 3 old LDV vans in the public car park area of a mooring for scrap. He genuinely couldn't see anything wrong!

I fully understand why LAs would be reluctant to risk having to manage such sites.

Why here and not in countries where there are designated stop-off areas? I don't know. There's a PhD in that for someone.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I think it's a great idea, but they would have to be protected by razor wire, CCTV, floodlights, anti-personal mines that have non motor-home user sensors, and preferably sited in the car parks of local police stations ( the ones that are open that is) sorry to be so down beat, but you only have to ask yourself why height barriers, and the Parking eye companies are springing up everywhere with their unenforceable £90

fines to see there simply isn't the mind set in the UK for them, quite the reverse I'd say.

 

And you can bet the CC and CCC would oppose them tooth and nail.

 

:-(

[ham]

I can not see it getting of the ground. Here locally the councils would not support it they have enough problems with travellers as they park in car parks or any bit of waste ground they can get on. Newport council have only just finished cleaning up after gaining a court order to move on a group of travellers at Tredegar Park M4 J28 cost to be in excess of £100.000k. And yesterday another 20 vans turn up at Tredegar house park and camp. This time it is Private land and the owner is going to have to bear the cost of the clean up when they are moved on. Would you as a rate payer and local business person be happy shelling out thousands of pounds on a regular basis? The travellers have been given land and areas to stop off, so they can stay a couple of days or weeks but no they prefer to opt for some where else. Most of them are in transit to or from Ireland. .Unfortunately asking the councils to provide spaces for motor homes to stop over down here will not work because of this. I have asked and been told there is provision for motor homes to stop over in the local caravan sites so there is no need to provide additional areas . And todays economical climate is not going to help...Good luck to any one that as the time to pick it up. Why not start with an online petition

[mondo]

Wasn't this put forward on here a couple of years ago..and didn't someone put a downloadable letter template on here too or am I thinking of another publication???

As said it would never lead to anything with all the swingeing cuts taking place now...But didn't one of the councils in Devon have an aires in place for a while...Or am I deluding myself on this

The thing is if UK type Aires did go ahead we would more than likely have to fight for a spot with the so called New Age Travellers..who would move in first and ruin it all for the rest!!

[Andy_C]

francisgraham - 2011-07-16 11:04 AM

 

As for the myth that we'll all go and eat in the restaurants and visit the local shops, think on this. If you really want to visit Tenby let's say, and you refuse to go because the local council hasn't provided an aire or two, are you the sort of person who will spend money eating out?

If you're unwilling to shell out a small amount for a CL or a simple site then you're clearly not going to be flashing the cash around the village.

This misses the point that 'aires' may be set up close to local amenities, whereas CS/CL sites are generally in more rural locations.

 

Certainly we have eaten or drunk in Hay on Wye, Brecon, Crickhowell and Machynlleth when staying on their car parks, not something we would have necessarily done if staying at an out of town site. Those towns have benefited (at least from us) from the Powys CC policy of allowing one night in seven.

 

Andy

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Of course it misses the point, the old chestnut, Aire users are a load of cheapskates, why waste your breath, I mean typing finger, with a reply. Of course nearly all CL's are within walking distance of local services where you can splash your cash,well when we used them I could never find one fitting that description, unlike hundreds of the very many French aires.

[francisgraham]

1footinthegrave - 2011-07-16 2:22 PMOf course it misses the point, the old chestnut, Aire users are a load of cheapskates, why waste your breath, I mean typing finger, with a reply. Of course nearly all CL's are within walking distance of local services where you can splash your cash,well when we used them I could never find one fitting that description, unlike hundreds of the very many French aires.

I'm sorry but if anyone is missing the point of my post it's you. I have never implied that aire users per se are cheapskates. I use them myself if they are reasonable ones and not an overcrowded car park.

What I was trying to say, which I thought was quite clear, is this:

The OP said that, if local councils were to provide aires, this would encourage motorhomers and the local economy would benefit. My point was that if a person is unwilling to visit a resort for instance, simply because there is no free or low-cost aire, then that same person is likely to be one of those unwilling to spend money on local services, such as restaurants etc.

If I wanted to visit a particular place, the fact that there is no aire would not put me off, I would still go and spend a few bob on a CL or a campsite. If there was a nice aire I would certainly use it but if there wasn't I'd still go!

So the hypothesis that providing aires at popular resorts will boost the local economy is a fallacy. Aires are expensive to run, land close to the centres of U.K. resorts is very expensive and once again, this isn't France with a massive tourist industry (compared to the UK) and cheap land outside villages suffering from rural flight, where the local authorities trying their best to bring in a bit of extra business.

Once again, I do not believe that all aire users do so just for financial reasons. Many do however and I was quite amused when earlier today the thread directly under this one was entitled 'Grow your own'. This was about a number of members of this site telling us how they cram their fridges so that they spend a little as possible whilst in France. It started by someone asking if it was feasible to take lots of salad ingredients in plastic bags so that they wouldn't have to buy them on the continent!

Do you really think that those who are determined to avoid even shopping in French supermarkets and would cram their fridges with home-made meals and take their own salads are going to boost local economies by dining in restaurants every night? 

But once again and to make it absolutely clear to you, I do not believe that aire users are all tarred with the same brush. Many aire users do use the local services but if there wasn't an aire I would hope that they'd be on the nearest site rather than avoid the town completely. Admittedly a site or CL may not be as close to a town centre as an aire but many are and if you really want to dine out there are car parks in most towns or free parking just outside.

Finally, I also have no problem with anyone wishing to save money by taking their own supplies and trying to cut down on their costs. If that allows them to enjoy their holiday and continue motorhoming it must be a good thing for them. 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Odd that places Like Blois, Le Mans, and Bayeux to name just a few can set aside area's of their no doubt expensive real estate for Aire provision, and we at least did contribute to the local economy in all of the places, even if it was only on occasion a petite frites or a baguette, or the missus in H&M.

 

We've all experienced lack of provision for us to park anywhere in the UK, did Torquay one year, had to drive in and drive straight out even though we only wanted to stay a few hours.

 

UK car parks could easily be adapted for Aire use after say 7pm,, but with the excepton of Chester it is unlikely to be a practice widely adopted. As far as ramming the fridge when we go to France to be self sufficient not needing to use local shops and services perhaps some do, but that's a bit of a challenge for seven week + trips. :-|

[LordThornber]

Gosh what a lot of negative attitudes.

 

Some may say realistic - I would not. I think if we apply the potential "traveller" and the land/start up cost issues (to name but two) as reasons for this not to get off the ground, then it won't.

 

Take a look at some places that you could camp, i.e. small villages with unused school playgrounds, huge Church car parks - all potential sites.

 

One place I know of is crying out for this sort of thing, indeed I have tried and failed to jolly the local Council on the subject. I identified no less than 3 potential locations and was given the brush off. I say crying out because the local site owner has priced himself out of the market (that's his choice) and the Village must be feeling the effects of reduced visitor numbers.

 

Of course the fine print boys, (CAN'T DO ATTITUDE MORE LIKE), those reaching for the Health & Safety Manual etc etc will already be salivating at the prospect of saying, " well you can''t camp there because of X, Y or Z".

 

Well with that sort of attitude, my message to you is keep out of this and leave this to folk with a CAN DO attitude.

 

Who gives a toss that the CC & CCC won't support/oppose this? Nothing to do with them whatsoever, lets face it, how many Colonel Blimpsworths of Virginia Water would camp on an Aire De UK as opposed to a CC site? I'll tell you - not so many.

 

I absolutely support MMM acting as a mouthpiece for lobbying Councils to provide overnight parking with basic facilties wherever feasible.

 

Martyn

[francisgraham]

1footinthegrave - 2011-07-16 4:12 PMOdd that places Like Blois, Le Mans, and Bayeux to name just a few can set aside area's of their no doubt expensive real estate for Aire provision, and we at least did contribute to the local economy in all of the places, even if it was only on occasion a petite frites or a baguette, or the missus in H&M.We've all experienced lack of provision for us to park anywhere in the UK, did Torquay one year, had to drive in and drive straight out even though we only wanted to stay a few hours.UK car parks could easily be adapted for Aire use after say 7pm,, but with the excepton of Chester it is unlikely to be a practice widely adopted. As far as ramming the fridge when we go to France to be self sufficient not needing to use local shops and services perhaps some do, but that's a bit of a challenge for seven week + trips. :-|

Expensive real estate in the places that you mentioned? The value of that real estate will be a fraction of that of similar towns in the U.K. And as for ramming the fridge, well of course you can't last seven weeks but just read the posts in the thread that I mentioned where people cheerfully admitted to carrying as much food as possible so as to put off for as long as possible before they have to contribute to the economy of French towns and villages.

Also, your suggestion of allowing us to use car parks after 7.00pm is unworkable. Do you really want to be hanging around until seven o'clock every night only to have to leave at 8.00 a.m. so that workers and then shoppers can use the car park? That would really be a nice relaxing experience! And what do we do for water and waste disposal? Do you have any idea of the cost of providing the infrastructure?

There seems to be three camps on this forum. In the middle are people like me, who I'm sure are in the majority. We will use sites or aires or wild camp in the appropriate places and, even if we only ever use sites, we really do understand why people like aires and wild camping and respect their right to do so. On the right of this middle ground if you like, are the small number who cannot seem to accept that not everyone who doesn't use sites isn't doing it just to save money.

Then we have the other extreme, those who actually deride those of us who will use sites, calling us sad and implying that we're some kind of wimps. But outside these three groups there is another that is, in my opinion, even worse and that's those who continually deride the U.K. and insist that France is some kind of motorhomers' paradise.

Well, I've had two holidays recently. Over Easter I went to Scotland. I drove up several hundred miles of superb motorway, completely free. I then wild camped in the Western Highlands and on Skye but, on the way up, and coming back via the east coast I used two CC sites, both of which were better than anything I've seen in France. But Scotland of course is like France, a huge country with lots of space.

In mid-May I then went to France. I had to get to the Med fairly quickly to meet with some friends in Argeles sur Mer. I think that it cost me about £80 in tolls (one way)! I then found that the entire Mediterranean coastline is just a long line of height barriers and most definitely has an anti-motorhome culture. I gave up trying to visit Sete, which had one scruffy and packed aire that was too far out of town to walk and couldn't park in the town because of the height barriers.

Now admittedly, my experiences in rural France were better, with some nice aires and some reasonable sites where I used my ACSI card but why do you think that the Med resorts have taken this attitude against motorhomers? Could it be because of the die-hard anti-site brigade who will clutter up any coast road or beach rather than pay a few Euro for a site?

But to get back to the question that was asked in this thread I find it amazing that some people cannot understand the differences between France and the U.K. Take the Netherlands, a small and very crowded country. Where is the network of nice aires there?

But the main fallacy is that communities will benefit from siting an aire in their town. Well they won't because the cost involved in running them and because the people who use them will contribute very little to the economy.

If you have a popular resort, the people who are really contributing to the local economy are those using sites and CLs. Even if they never eat out or shop locally (very unlikely) they are still helping to provide jobs on the sites or helping the local farmers make a bit extra.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Sorry but to the guy above if ever I get the urge to visit Scotland again after a thoroughly miserable time with midges, and constant grey skies and drizzle the I'l give up this pastime, or lie down until the feeling passes. I agree about the antics of some motor-homers, but that's a bit like saying everyone who goes to the pub gets wrecked and vomits in the street, some do, most do not. As for superb motorways you've got to be joking, or not been on the M1, M6 or M25 lately !

 

And as for not helping employment even French Aires have to be serviced by local people who collect the fee's dispose of rubbish, service the service points, what difference then to a CL.

 

Martyn you are absolutely right about hundreds if not thousands of potential sites, as a member of the National Trust I once wrote to them with a proposal along those lines, even as I saw it giving them an additional cost free benefit, that of "free" security overnight, never even got a reply. I have been over the years a gad fly on all sorts of issues with local councils and the like, result, nothing. Perhaps that's why I'm so apathetic now. I say good luck with such a campaign, perhaps on another subject we'll also get those referendums often promised by politicians with overwhelming public opinion calling for them, but I suspect with the same result.

[Guest pelmetman]

The whole point of an aire is that its within walking distance of a town*-) so that motorhomers without a tow car, can walk in and visit the attractions, spend money in the shops, and have a meal and a drink in a pub or restaurant, so a car park would be fine for me, if I want set up camp, I'll stop on a campsite:D 

Not quite sure why the MMM could not start a petition, as the mag has had some history in this department for example the "Height fight";-)

As for the cost of setting up aires being to expensive8-).........The car parks and staff are all ready there, all the councils would need to do is reprogram the ticket machines, it is not even necessary to provide any facilities as by definition having a motorhome you have all you need:D

But if our councils are so fortunate as not to need any extra income, I'm pretty sure the local businesses would have a different view8-)

During our recent visit to France we stopped at a aire at Forges-Les-Eaux (76440) on the way out and on the way back, we spent over 20 euros the first time and nearly 60 euros on the way back, add the cost of the aire and we spent over 90 euros8-)............The interesting part is that the receipts for the aire are numbered so I could work out the number of vans that had stayed in the intervening 12 nights................156 vans:D

At our final aire Le Touquet (62520) the charge is 9 euros for a car park, and it was I suspect almost full, so that's a potential 450 euro's a night8-)..........But even though the Le Touquet residents don't look like they need the money;-)...........they have 3 aires.............obviously they could be bothered to make the effort to earn a few more euros.............Maybe we need to get the French to run our councils, as ours are a waste of space(lol)(lol)   

  

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I agree with every point you make, even Le Touquet a very upmarket place as you say has ample provision ( even though your M/home is discouraged or more correctly banned in the main town sea front area from even parking) never come across that before. And as you said the local benefits are huge in some places like Le Touquet and Le Crotoy to name just two. It is in many cases being in the thick of it, that is the attraction of the Aire system, not stuck out in some remote spot like most CLs, where the only one that benefits is the CL owner, and how many CL's are within walking distance of amenities or shops. Oh well I'm preaching to the converted, or the not as the case may be, but happen in the UK, sorry no chance.

[lennyhb]

I agree with Martyn & 1foot far too many people being negative here. To us there are plenty of places we would like to go in the UK but the attitude of local councils make most places a no go area.

Yes we go away for weekends in the UK & use CL's or CS's but that usually means taking all food with us as they are never near a village or a bus route & buses are often non existent evenings & Sundays.

 

In France or Germany you can always park easily in the towns & villages, Germany you can overnight in any car park providing there is no notice saying cars only, the French don't mind if you overnight some villages in tourist areas ban Motorhomes from overnighting in July & august fair enough.

After a days site seeing if there is no Aire we will pull into a village car park wander down the village find a nice restaurant spend a couple of hours there, wander back to the van for some kip, next morning set off about 10:00 after wandering down to the shops for provisions. It's just not possible in England.

 

It's just too stressful using a Motorhome in England always worrying if you are going to find somewhere to stop for the night or during the day if you want to stop in a town or village will you be able to park, just so much easier to hop on a ferry and have no worries.

 

When we leave the UK the van is virtually empty of food apart from coffee & milk for the morning cupper, first stop on the other side is to stock the larder. Even if you shop in a Hypermarket you are supporting the local economy as they are required by law to buy local produce where practicable.

 

I think the smaller villages & towns in the UK are losing out by the lack of facilities , most people drive straight though villages & towns as the local councils charge silly prices to park & they can park free at the out of town Tesco or Sainsbury due to this most of the local shops have closed.

In France local shops & out of town Hypermarkets appear to be able to co-exist.

 

To make Aires work in the UK they need to sort out how they handle travellers why our laws allow them to get away with their lawless attitude needs to be addressed then we might stand a chance.

[peedee]

An interesting debate with some good points from both sides

 

lennyhb - 2011-07-16 7:56 PM

To make Aires work in the UK they need to sort out how they handle travellers why our laws allow them to get away with their lawless attitude needs to be addressed then we might stand a chance.

 

I agree. Isn't the government trying to do just that by introducing a bill to criminalise tresspass so the undesirables can be moved on quickly and prosecuted?

 

I don't think MMM should be involved but I would like to see councils provide daytime parking as a priority rather than overnight facilities. I think they have far more to gain from this than providing overnight aire type facilities.

 

I know some councils already do provide parking but this is not widespread.

 

 

[crinklystarfish]

francisgraham - 2011-07-16 5:21 PM  ...There seems to be three camps on this forum. In the middle are people like me, who I'm sure are in the majority. We will use sites or aires or wild camp in the appropriate places and, even if we only ever use sites, we really do understand why people like aires and wild camping and respect their right to do so. On the right of this middle ground if you like, are the small number who cannot seem to accept that not everyone who doesn't use sites isn't doing it just to save money....[typed later in the same post] but why do you think that the Med resorts have taken this attitude against motorhomers? Could it be because of the die-hard anti-site brigade who will clutter up any coast road or beach rather than pay a few Euro for a site?

What started as a balanced observation was seemingly contradicted in the comment regarding the "die-hard ant-site brigade".

It seems a wholly odd assumption to me that people want to stay on a coast road are there to avoid any kind of fee. Doubly odd that this statement was made on the back of a claim to accept that off-site camping wasn't necessarily about saving money.

 But the main fallacy is that communities will benefit from siting an aire in their town. Well they won't because the cost involved in running them and because the people who use them will contribute very little to the economy.

Utter clown shoes. Seems to me to be an armchair statement plucked straight from the world of fluffy assumption and based on zero evidence. People have actually described how they spend locally when on aires and it's an utterly bizarre assertion that people who seek out aires in preference to formal sites are any less likely to contribute financially. Indeed there is a fee payable at many French aires anyway, in addition to any fee needed to use a service point. Ask any first year tourism student about generating revenue and they'll tell you all about footfall. If the people aren't there, they can't spend. It may be that the cost to run them would outweigh the revenue generated, but that would vary from site to site and can't be quantified unless someone actually sets up the experiment. There's no way that it can be sweepingly claimed that there wouldn't be a net benefit.

 If you have a popular resort, the people who are really contributing to the local economy are those using sites and CLs. Even if they never eat out or shop locally (very unlikely) they are still helping to provide jobs on the sites or helping the local farmers make a bit extra. 

Not necessarily true, there's no guarantee of this, and certainly no evidence that transit tourists wouldn't contribute even more. Just one scenario that isn't too far-fetched. Couple spend a weekend on a site and have taken enough food and drink to last the stay. They pay one of the larger clubs for the privilege so the money is never seen locally. Wardens are often transported in seasonally from miles away. Local benefit? What local benefit?

Would aires in the UK generate immediate cash for the local economy? The evidence would suggest so. Are local authorities or any other public institution likely to want the hassle of managing them? Incredibly unlikely because of our culture of abuse.

If one of the big supermarket chains suddenly hit upon the idea of turning a small part of their car park over to a motorhome area in exchange for pulling in guaranteed passing trade, then that might just work and become a UK aire network of benefit to the locality without being a drain on public funds.

Except the people stopping on it might be derided for being prepared to spend the night on a supermarket car park rather than paying for a site!

If anyone seriously wants to progress the concept of aires in the UK, they would most likely succeed by having big business onside. As I say, if the concept could be sold to supermarket chains, petrochemical companies, big breweries etc, there just might be a chance.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Blimey, that took a lot of writing, but I agree with everything you say One example I could give of dubious "local benefit" is Tonfanau Motocycling events of which I have intimate knowledge it is this. Almost to a man these folk come with all their provisions, stay on site for three days, then return to Cheshire or wherever., no one locally employed whatsoever and on land that is owned by someone 100's of miles away. So it is far from cut and dried. But some folk have entrenched views and won't be persuaded by discussion though.