Is it time for MMM to launch a government campaign to promote a UK Aires network

[francisgraham]

Dear Mr. Crinkly, I'm not too good at manipulating this forum yet so forgive me if I don't do all this highlighting and answering batches of a previous post - if you know what I mean!

I don't understand how I've contradicted myself. As I said, I believe that many people wild camp or use aires because they prefer it and not for monetary reasons. I love pitching up in a truly wild place or using a nice aire in an attractive setting.  But I also believe that there are others who are 'die-hard anti-site campers'. You don't need to look too far through posts on this forum to see that there are some in that category. There are of course those who are die-hard anti-wild camping and see such people as nothing more than cheapskates. I hope that the majority of motorhomers are like me, and respect the views of others and accept that the majority of people choose their style of camping for many reasons and not just financial.

What I do not like though is those who will park totally unsuitably when there are other options. I read on another forum that I've joined, about Winter motorhomers being moved from long-term occupancy of a Spanish beach only for them, to the annoyance of the residents, to move into the surrounding residential streets and despite the fact that there were sites within walking distance that catered for long-term winter residents at very low prices.

I had a dismal experience on the Mediterranean coast recently where parking was a nightmare because of height barriers. Why is this, why have these towns shut their doors to us?

You're right of course about my assumption of local councils in the U.K. not benefiting from the a local aire. It was simply that, an assumption, but an assumption based on reasoning. Sitting on some aires in France and noticing how many people actually walked into town to dine and how many stayed and cooked in their 'vans it occurred to me that the town was benefiting very little from the aire. To be fair, I didn't dine out either but I'm on my own and there's something a bit sad about a lone man in a restaurant so I tend to cater for myself, unless I'm meeting friends when we all dine out together, but I never seem to be on an aire when that happens. It was also based on knowing quite a bit about the costs of property and land on either side of the Channel and the propensity for tinkers to take over and cost local councils far more than they could ever recoup from an aire.  

I agree that supermarket car parks would be a useful night halt but most of them seem to be out of town these days. so the advantage of a local aire within walking distance of the centre is lost and who can blame supermarkets for not wishing to take the risk of suggesting that their car parks are available to anyone with a caravan. You can see where that will lead!

I also suspect that many of those who holiday in the UK may well be the less adventurous types who prefer the security of a site. But again that's just an assumption on my part or possibly, as you rather rudely put it, 'clown shoes'. 

Happy camping wherever you choose to stay, as I'm sure that you would never park selfishly, but you cannot deny that there are many who will.

[Brian Kirby]

I seem to remember the main technical difficulty with aire type provision in the UK is planning legislation, under which such provision would, as I understand it, have to be categorised as a caravan site. If this regulation were relaxed or re-defined, to permit overnight parking of specifically motor caravans for a maximum of, say, 72 hours (pick your own limit! :-)) without the need on the part of the local authority to designate it a caravan site - in a similar way to the powers granted in respect of CLs/CSs - it would greatly simplify the conversations with local authorities. Arguably, this would be a boost to tourism overall, as well as just locally. I suspect the power to vary the existing planning regs lies with the minister, and could be achieved via a statutory instrument rather than a new act, so not major new legislation.

 

If that hurdle could be jumped, the conversations could then pass directly to local authorities. There would undoubtedly be resistance from camp site operators (so possibly also CC and CCC), who would fear loss of revenue. The trick with these is to convince them that rather than losing custom to the aires, the total tourist inflow would grow, offering them spin off benefits in providing support facilities for motorhomers who are not staying on their sites. Such facilities are quite common in France, where aires are provided on camp sites.

 

The pressure for the change would need to come from a combination of motorhomers, tourist bodies, and interested local authorities, to provide the necessary weight of evidence to provoke a positive response. That will/would require considerable time and effort to gather in the participants, and keep them on track. Possible? Maybe, but it will require an energetic and influential champion to take up the cause at the necessary level to get the desired result. The French are superbly organised via the twin prongs of the manufacturers' collective, and the camping car owners' collective. In UK, as ever, we seem to shun working together, preferring to snipe and bicker with each other over the minutiae while losing sight of the big picture. Could we achieve this? Yes. But will we? On the evidence of this string, probably not! :-(

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I suspect part of the problem is the general level of ownership of M/homes in the UK compared to other EU countries where they have this kind of provision, I'm always astounded at the level of French van ownership, no matter how many times I go there, and re-enforced by watching the Tour de France just 10 minutes ago. It's sounds defeatist but I simply don't think we have enough clout. But also ask yourself something else, just how many British aires if they existed would you feel secure staying at without some A******* giving you grief. Compare Blois with say Manchester, mmmmmmm

[postnote]

chas - 2011-07-16 8:52 AM

 

Great idea, but unfortunatly all the councils are skint because of goverment cut backs, and the goverment is too busy spending money on bombing other countrys and finding billions for overseas aid.

 

I think Aires are far down the councils and goverments thought process. :'(

 

Maybe if they stopped creating stupid posts, such as ‘manager for open spaces’. In our area all open spaces say no ball games and no dogs. So how do you manage open spaces..

There is so much unused land that could be developed for this. I Australia the likes of Kea invest in local sewage drains and fresh water points, it’s a start. Maybe the MH manufacturers and the likes of MMM should get together and DO something. Again we British always have a reason why we can’t. Let’s do this time...

(?)

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I live in the Snowdonia national park and others like the Snowdonia society, you would not believe the hoops and barriers they put in the way of even the most sympathetic development, or proposal . It seems they have a knee jerk reaction to ANY proposal and that is to say no. Why because they have power, we have non,simple.

 

A recent quote on a recent local development was

 

"equally clear that everyone was sick and tired of the antics of the Snowdonia Society, which have stalled Kemble’s plans for the last two years".

 

So Aires and a welcome in the hillside, in your dreams

[LordThornber]

postnote - 2011-07-17 4:02 PM

Maybe the MH manufacturers and the likes of MMM should get together and DO something. Again we British always have a reason why we can’t.

 

I agree and this can't do attitude is really rather trying. Let's face it, I could probably think of 10, 20 or 30 reasons why such a scheme may be held back, but let's think of 30 reasons why it SHOULD get off the ground.

 

Instead of thinking of "one size fits all" in regards to using car parks, after Fridays at 6pm, gone by Monday at 7am, etc etc etc, lets think on an individually needs led & met basis.

 

Example, speaking with a school Governor that I know resulted in a very positive response. He said the school would easily be able to provide fresh water & bins. Waste water maybe not, certainly no hook ups.

 

What about access? Well he said he was certain that volunteers would provide a rota system for the locking and unlocking of gates and the local pub/postoffice would be ushered into taking fees.

 

Ahh, fees, yes, the school would be only to happy to charge say £5 for 24 hrs stay and pop it into school funds. Another Governor, (she is of the legal persuasion) would be nudged into the regulations angles, of which there would be some, (many), no doubt.

 

He agreed it is a potentially win win situation, particularly in the summer with approx 50 nights available at a stroke.

 

I use this as just ONE tiny example. there are dozens and dozens if you open your eyes, look around, use your imagination and get a can do attitude on your side.

 

Martyn

[Gwendolyn]

Living in a small village in a tourist area [in a National Park], I can see the advantage of opening up our grounds behind the village hall [we need cash!!!] for an “Aire”. But, already, in our village we have a CC CS, a C&CC CL, and a commercial campsite, and have another 2 campsites on the immediate outskirts, as well as a further X number in the vicinity….

 

While I would be happy to explore, with the hall committee, opening up the grounds as a motorhome Aire, could we square that with the owners of the campsites?

 

Seriously, can we do this as a venture, to bring trade to the local shop and 2 pubs in the village, and charging a modest sum for the village association, without harming existing businesses?

 

We have a meeting this coming week and I will be more than happy to put the proposal, if any of you can help me with tactics / protocol etc……

 

[Andy_C]

Gwendolyn - 2011-07-17 5:24 PM

 

Living in a small village in a tourist area [in a National Park], I can see the advantage of opening up our grounds behind the village hall [we need cash!!!] for an “Aire”. But, already, in our village we have a CC CS, a C&CC CL, and a commercial campsite, and have another 2 campsites on the immediate outskirts, as well as a further X number in the vicinity….

 

While I would be happy to explore, with the hall committee, opening up the grounds as a motorhome Aire, could we square that with the owners of the campsites?

 

Seriously, can we do this as a venture, to bring trade to the local shop and 2 pubs in the village, and charging a modest sum for the village association, without harming existing businesses?

 

We have a meeting this coming week and I will be more than happy to put the proposal, if any of you can help me with tactics / protocol etc……

With existing similar facilities nearby it is probably unlikely that you would get a site licence and planning consent from the local authority, particularly in a NP.

 

It might be worth exploring the possibility of getting an exemption certificate. If you want to be open to all motorhomes, rather than solely club members, you would be best applying to the Practical Motorhome Nightstop Scheme.

 

Andy

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I can only imagine some of the people posting have never come up against local authorities, sub committees, parish councils, etc and I doubt school governors will be able to override local councils what with H&S, one poster say's "this can't do attitude is really rather trying" I say try dealing with some of the bodies I've mentioned, as I have and you'll want to blow your brains out.

[Gwendolyn]

Andy_C - 2011-07-17 5:54 PM

 

Gwendolyn - 2011-07-17 5:24 PM

 

Living in a small village in a tourist area [in a National Park], I can see the advantage of opening up our grounds behind the village hall [we need cash!!!] for an “Aire”. But, already, in our village we have a CC CS, a C&CC CL, and a commercial campsite, and have another 2 campsites on the immediate outskirts, as well as a further X number in the vicinity….

 

While I would be happy to explore, with the hall committee, opening up the grounds as a motorhome Aire, could we square that with the owners of the campsites?

 

Seriously, can we do this as a venture, to bring trade to the local shop and 2 pubs in the village, and charging a modest sum for the village association, without harming existing businesses?

 

We have a meeting this coming week and I will be more than happy to put the proposal, if any of you can help me with tactics / protocol etc……

With existing similar facilities nearby it is probably unlikely that you would get a site licence and planning consent from the local authority, particularly in a NP.

 

It might be worth exploring the possibility of getting an exemption certificate. If you want to be open to all motorhomes, rather than solely club members, you would be best applying to the Practical Motorhome Nightstop Scheme.

 

Andy

 

Ok I'll look at that. Thank you.

[LordThornber]

1footinthegrave, I did indeed try with one council, and I agree it is mind blowingly difficult to make progress. I failed miserably with them. However that does not, for me anyway, mean we should not continue to try again.

 

I accept there are/will be numerous hurdles to cross before anything (if) is achieved and I admit to struggling with some posters comments offering only negative comments. They are entitled to their views and I respect their views too.

 

We've had the Berlin Wall torn down and The Good Friday agreement, surely X numbers of motorhome owners can fart about for 36 hours in the local scout huts car park?

 

If it only saves 'em washing cars for a weekend to raise funds? :D

 

Martyn

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Martyn, I don't know how old you are ( and don't wish to know ) but I can remember a time this may well have got off the ground, but look at the UK we live in now, news presenters that warn us "this report contains flash photography, a challenge to me at a local leisure center we had hired for our granddaughters birthday that prevented me taking photographs, the local council recently erecting signs on our beach stating " no climbing on the rocks" , conker tree's felled H&S, I could go on and on, I suspect most could. I say good luck, that's all.

 

Oh and we don't have the local Marie !

 

Call me negative, I prefer realistic. :'(

[Guest pelmetman]

Brian Kirby - 2011-07-17 1:00 PMI seem to remember the main technical difficulty with aire type provision in the UK is planning legislation, under which such provision would, as I understand it, have to be categorised as a caravan site. If this regulation were relaxed or re-defined, to permit overnight parking of specifically motor caravans for a maximum of, say, 72 hours (pick your own limit! :-)) without the need on the part of the local authority to designate it a caravan site - in a similar way to the powers granted in respect of CLs/CSs - it would greatly simplify the conversations with local authorities. Arguably, this would be a boost to tourism overall, as well as just locally. I suspect the power to vary the existing planning regs lies with the minister, and could be achieved via a statutory instrument rather than a new act, so not major new legislation.

That's my point Brian:D.....If we start at the top and get the legislation changed then the councils will have one less excuse to hide behind;-)

As far as I can see there is no need for any capital outlay, as many towns already have designated motorhome parking so all we need is to be allowed to stay overnight:D

[Gwendolyn]

Ok so read my post above. I'm willing to give it a go. Meeting this coming week. As for fighting local bureaucracy, I spent a number of years working for a youth charity. My role was to arrange insurance for youth club activities, county wide ….. it was not easy, but I never gave up.

 

Now I am involved in a local initiative to get funding for a village hall project… with some success, despite all the odds.

 

“Andy_C” has given a useful pointer – for which I am grateful, and I will pursue it - and “1 foot” you threw down a “challenge”* - I have dealt with such bodies and I didn’t blow my brains out….….

So if we can do it [maybe?] will others follow?????

 

[* I can only imagine some of the people posting have never come up against local authorities, sub committees, parish councils, etc and I doubt school governors will be able to override local councils what with H&S, one poster say's "this can't do attitude is really rather trying" I say try dealing with some of the bodies I've mentioned, as I have and you'll want to blow your brains out.]

 

Now you say, above …. "look at the UK we live in now, news presenters that warn us ‘this report contains flash photography, a challenge to me at a local leisure center we had hired for our granddaughters birthday that prevented me taking photographs, the local council recently erecting signs on our beach stating ‘no climbing on the rocks’ , conker tree's felled H&S, I could go on and on, I suspect most could. I say good luck, that's all.”

 

I am not saying we will succeed, but I am willing to have a try. And we will need "Good Luck!" I have already alerted the Chair of our village group…..

 

Keep you posted.... but don't hold your breath!!!!!

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I can only applaud your wish to "have a go" and as you seem to acknowledge you'll need luck.

 

Attitudes need to be changed, and that's the problem, why do you think we have as we have in a premier Welsh resort signs on the car park stating " no cooking allowed" And in another, Barmouth, positive hostility by the town mayor and councilors against Motor-homes.

 

My brother too was actively involved in a residents group in the midlands for some years, I'm convinced the stress of it all in dealings with pillocks on the council took years of his life, he too never gave up, sadly life gave up on him, but although it pains me to say, he never achieved any of his well intentioned aims.. Good luck non the less. ;-)

[david lloyd]

I have read with some interest the comments made on this subject and, so far, resisted the temptation to respond. However, as someone who has (successfully) negotiated with and persuaded a Local Authority (Redcar and Cleveland -see my article 'Aires and Graces MMM December 2009) to set up an official overnight parking area (Aire) for motorhomes I feel I should make comment on certain aspects and perhaps dispel some myth and rumour.

 

My article makes it clear that, contrary to some opinion, it is possible to get Local Authorities to set up such facilities but as far as Local Authorites and the use of existing car parks are concerned the main obstacle is the Legal Orders governing the use of the car park concerned. These stipulate which vehicles can use the parking area, at what times, the price charged etc and are there to protect residents rather than specifically exclude motorhomes.

 

My initial contact served to illustrate the first real difficulty and that was the lack of understanding and knowledge of what motorhomers needs are (even for daytime parking) and what a modern, self contained motorhome contains by way of amenities. It sounds simple now but the easiest way of overcoming this once I got the initial contact was to show them my own motorhome and explain how such overnight parking would be used by fellow motorhomers. Just the dialogue alone began to change the way council officials perceived 'motorhomers' and helped them to distinguish them from, say, caravanners.

 

Perseverance was the main requirement together with a good grasp of motorhoming and how local authorities work. In this I was helped significantly by Graham Hadfield who has an abundance of expereince in that field. Diplomacy and a mutual respect for the officials who, for the most part, are only trying to do their jobs, is a key element in getting them on board with your idea. The fact that I was a resident and not likely to benefit from the facility actually worked in my favour as it became clear to them that I was not acting on any self interest in pursuing the matter.

 

As Graham points out above, the problem of itinerants abusing any such facility is a red herring (but a very real concern initially to the Local Authority) and soon dispelled by illustrating that the car park in question was already there, had been for a number of years and itinerants had never used the site before - why would they suddenly decide to use it if the Legal Order was changed to allow MOTOR CARAVANS (which is a specific category in the DVLA) only to park overnight. The legal position of the Authority is not compromised providing they include in the new Legal Order restrictions such as Motor Caravans only, a restriction on time such as 24 or 48 hours and/or no return within seven days.

 

As for the cost of such a scheme then, yes, there are costs to the Authority but these are set up costs such as programming the ticket machines (if a charge is to be made), signage and the cost of changing the Legal Orders which have to be advertised in the local press and locality of the car park. After that, there should be no ongoing revenue costs if no additional facilities (other than the basic overnight parking) is provided.

 

I have to say that the process was not easy nor quick. Despite this, elected and appointed officials worked with Graham and I to establish the facility, listening carefully to our arguments for overnight parking and eventually acceding to the request. Unfortunately, the biggest obstacle to any such facility turned out to be apathy on the part of the motorhomers we tried so hard to support. Despite widespread support voiced on this and other forums I learned that on 2 March 2011 Redcar and Cleveland Council withdrew the facility after an 18 month trial period in which only 2 motorhomes (based on ticket sales) used the overnight parking area.

 

So, it has been and gone. There was a further opportunity here that the Local Authority had recognised which was that if the scheme had worked and brought in (as I had suggested) more tourism into this ancient market town then the scheme could have been rolled out across the whole Local Authority area. Indeed, every successful attempt at establishing an aire would have made any subsequent approach to other Authorities that much easier.

 

I remain of the opinion that Aires would be a useful and profitable way of promoting tourism in specific areas but have to say that unless motorhomers make it happen and support it thereafter it will never become a widespread part of motorhoming life in the UK

 

David

[Gwendolyn]

1footinthegrave - 2011-07-17 7:49 PM

 

I can only applaud your wish to "have a go" and as you seem to acknowledge you'll need luck.

 

Attitudes need to be changed, and that's the problem, why do you think we have as we have in a premier Welsh resort signs on the car park stating " no cooking allowed" And in another, Barmouth, positive hostility by the town mayor and councilors against Motor-homes.

 

My brother too was actively involved in a residents group in the midlands for some years, I'm convinced the stress of it all in dealings with pillocks on the council took years of his life, he too never gave up, sadly life gave up on him, but although it pains me to say, he never achieved any of his well intentioned aims.. Good luck non the less. ;-)

 

Thanks!

 

As I have fought insurers who demurred because there were 'ropes on the football posts and a child might hang himself" kind of attitude, as well as ‘a child might fall over the pack horse bridge’ mentality of insurers, and still got insurance for the youth clubs, I am up for the challenge.

 

We have raised in excess of £XXX,000 for the hall project, battled, and dealt with, the VAT charge. We are planning on installing an outside tap and electric point on the new annexe, currently being built, which leads onto a field ... can an Aire be that far off????? Perhaps an outside door to one of the loos????

 

Of course, there will be Parks Planning to deal with……

 

Give me some info / facts / ammunition gents and ladies…..

 

 

[LordThornber]

Colours to the mast.

 

As Ex Social Services, (Children's Services). I once had to participate in writing a risk assessment for taking children out on trips from the children's home.

 

One, I am not kidding, had been signed off by Management contained the following risk for a child, (young person).

 

A child must be assessed for hypothermia risk when walking to local shops of a distance not more than 200 meters 8-)

 

So yes I do know how ****** difficult it will be

 

Martyn

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Ah just those two words "risk assessment" that has crept into our modern lives is enough to make me never leave the house again. Were you ever tempted to stand up in a room full of your colleagues and shout this is all B*******s

[Guest pelmetman]

I think therein lies the problem of the piece meal approach David:-S...........If we had a network of aires like the French, then we would develop the habit of using them:D

   

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

My final thoughts. Powys council are M/home freindly, you can stay 1 night in 7, but water and dumping, sorry no facility. But at least a semi-positive note from me to end on. (lol)

[LordThornber]

1footinthegrave - 2011-07-17 8:25 PM

Were you ever tempted to stand up in a room full of your colleagues and shout this is all B*******s

 

Tempted??????????????????????

 

Ok, I didn't quite shout it.....

 

Dave, a National approach would be the most effective in the long term, however, from small acorns and all that?

 

Just a thought.

 

Martyn

[Gwendolyn]

1footinthegrave - 2011-07-17 8:25 PM

 

Ah just those two words "risk assessment" that has crept into our modern lives is enough to make me never leave the house again. Were you ever tempted to stand up in a room full of your colleagues and shout this is all B*******s

 

We played "Bull***t Bingo"... write all the jargon words in a square, the first to score them all yelled ‘Bingo’, leaving the Facilitator / Enabler [!!!] perplexed.

[crinklystarfish]

david lloyd - 2011-07-17 8:01 PM... As Graham points out above, the problem of itinerants abusing any such facility is a red herring (but a very real concern initially to the Local Authority) and soon dispelled by illustrating that the car park in question was already there, had been for a number of years and itinerants had never used the site before - why would they suddenly decide to use it if the Legal Order was changed to allow MOTOR CARAVANS (which is a specific category in the DVLA) only to park overnight.

I suppose that depends on how 'itinerants' are defined. I personally never envisaged hoards of 'true' gypsies but more a gradual and insidious abuse as the site became known amongst 'fringe of society' 'van dwellers. I don't think it is a red herring, and I think any public land owner / manager will be right to have the concerns.

Again, my waterways enforcement experience suggests that once legitimacy is granted, it's like a magnet to waifs and strays.

It's hard to pigeon hole the people that I'm trying to describe and doing so will almost certainly offend someone, somewhere, but it's these people, not the immediate image of 'travellers' that I think many local authorities will have in mind when considering a proposal.

The kind of people I'm talking about are one's who have, often alone, dropped out of mainstream society and taken to living in a vehicle as a solution to a roof over their head. There's one such fellow in our locality who lives in an IH pvc and has no qualms about cooking roadkill. I'm sure you can all begin to conjour images of the type of people I am describing if you think of surfers living for months on end in tatty bay window Type 2s.

These are the disparate bunch of collective individuals that I think any public land owner is right to worry about. It'd be like the 'Field of Dreams': build it and they shall come!

Also, only 2 motorhomes in 18 months suggests to me that perhaps a degree of abuse had already set in?

Again, I'd love to see an aires network but think that trying to set one up using public bodies is doomed to fail. Involving big business however,  might just work.

[Daniel the editor]

Well that's a thread that takes some reading to get through!

There is a fair bit of negativity here, which makes me wonder just what the appetite is for UK aires.

My feeling at present is that this is not the right issue for MMM to run a campaign on.

That's not to say this isn't a valid issue, but I am not convinced it is right for MMM.

I will discuss it further internally and externally and gauge opinion.

I will also come back to this thread and see if there are more positive comments in favour of UK aires.

Thanks

Daniel