arthur49 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-07-22 3:24 PM Not seeking to defend either manufacturer, but how would the average reviewer be able to spot that? Are you expecting these folks to be expert in Truma's heater installation instructions? It is very unlikely, unless the tests were carried out in winter, and even then only if it were a live-in test, that the heater would have been run during a test, so little chance the tester would notice any smell. From conversations I have had with Truma, they generally despair at how all the manufacturer's install the heaters, because when a major defect requires complete replacement, they all too often find they have to dismantle a substantial part of the van to effect the swap. . Is it really unreasonable to expect a reviewer not to spot 1) heater is virtually inaccessible for simple repair/service? 2) ducting is not correctly installed - I could identify it quite quickly and easily and I'm neither an expert nor a reviewer? (admittedly I was not aware at that point in time that the consequence, according to Truma, is stink) If we're not getting any substance in reviews we might as well just read the converter's brochure? But I agree with your statement ... "From conversations I have had with Truma, they generally despair at how all the manufacturer's install the heaters....." because that is what Truma also said to me. Arthur Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tugga Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Have to agree with Carol, we only bought our motorhome in November and during our 2 week holiday we visited 3 sites and we did use it like a caravan, we even towed our smart car behind us for this purpose. I love the MMM magazine and at the moment I have got 11 copies and will continue to buy from my supermarket each month as I am learning more and more. I must admit that I would like to know more about where I can park so that I can use our new toy more as a tourer and not just where I cannot. I also like this forum as I am learning things that I never thought about (are our bikes insured when on the back??) I have no idea, gonna check out my policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 arthur49 - 2011-07-22 5:26 PM Is it really unreasonable to expect a reviewer not to spot 1) heater is virtually inaccessible for simple repair/service? 2) ducting is not correctly installed - I could identify it quite quickly and easily and I'm neither an expert nor a reviewer? (admittedly I was not aware at that point in time that the consequence, according to Truma, is stink) Arthur No, I don't think it unreasonable, Arthur, but I do fear it would quickly become very repetitive, and lose its impact. My point was merely that all these bits of equipment (not just the Trumas) have their particular requirements, so to expect a given reviewer to be able to spot the flaws in every installation, especially if the test is not a live-in test, would be a big ask. I'm sure Dave Newell, for example, has the technical knowledge to go through any van and de-snag its heater, fridge, water, mains, 12V and gas installations. Were he to do so, I suspect he'd end with a list as long as your arm of things that are somewhat below what should have been achieved. I also think, I'm afraid, were he to get his review published, he'd become an immediate persona non grata with all manufacturers, and never be allowed to submit another review, or even set foot in another van! Pyhrric victory comes to mind. :-) What might possibly work better than ragging the failures, would be an award each year for the most competent technical installation in each category. In other words, praise the good, rather than damn the bad. Might even be able to get the UK ends of the manufacturers to sponsor awards. The Truma Gold Award for best Combi installation, anyone? Something to put in the advertising blurb, so it raises the profile of the model. Something to compete for, that says this van is at least technically sound, and can be maintained/repaired without undue cost - even if the curtains are a horrible colour. :-) Maybe to be carried out as part of the Design and Build awards, with points loaded accordingly, but with vans that don't collect a major award still eligible for an installation "Gold Star". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arthur49 Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-07-22 6:59 PM No, I don't think it unreasonable, Arthur, but I do fear it would quickly become very repetitive, and lose its impact. . Its repetitive at the moment Brian................ on a plus I enjoy SOME of the well written touring articles eg Andy Stothert ....... even though I did upset him ages ago on the Fiat 'judder' issue! Arthur :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Most illuminating Mr K and I appreciate the candour: suspicions confirmed. If only people relying on a review, who were about to dump £50,000 into a badly built 'van, also knew the limitations you outline - the whole playing field would be at least approaching level. Accepting for amoment the real-world constraints, maybe the editor would consider including a caveat at the beginning of each test: This review is written by an enthusiast who may posses little technical knowledge or journalistic skill. For fear of litigation, or of being ostracised by the ‘van’s manufacturer, the reviewer – even in the unlikely event of being able to spot screamingly poor build quality – is therefore only able to report on non-controversial matters and consequently this article is fundamentally a very long description of the self-explanatory photographs. We apologise for being unable / unwilling to bring you a true critique of this ‘van, but if you waste your money and buy it anyway, you can at least console yourself with the free tin of WD40 you were supplied with for your unquestioning faith in subscribing to MMM. Do you think he might go for it? I actually, being more serious, do acknowledge the reality: I just have real problems with the ethics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crinklystarfish Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 Ooh, and given the reality, then carrot not stick would at least be an improvement. Wholly support a rave review section / awards structure for decently designed and built 'vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted July 22, 2011 Share Posted July 22, 2011 crinklystarfish - 2011-07-22 8:50 PM Most illuminating Mr K and I appreciate the candour: suspicions confirmed. If only people relying on a review, who were about to dump £50,000 into a badly built 'van, also knew the limitations you outline - the whole playing field would be at least approaching level. Not so much "candour", which some might think implies a degree of insider knowledge: :-) but rather, just what I have gleaned from others, including motorhomers, a few who write about motorhomes, from magazines, from this forum, and from my own experience, during my relatively brief five years of motorhoming. So, no privileged insights to be gained from me, I'm afraid - I don't work for the News of the World. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyg3nwl Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Hi, I read with interest the above criticisms of the various contents of MMM, and it makes me wonder as to what is the most popular type of articles in the magazine. Would it be reveiws of latest products, vans etc even though the reveiwers are like constrained by manufacturers as to what they can or cant criticise, or could it be the thousands of Adverts that occupy 90 percent of the contents. Might it possibly be the ramblings of Andy and 'fagash' and their 'adventures, or even the techy bits under the guise of hints and tips, or concieveably the 'reports and reveiws' of the various sites visited by some of the wandering readers. Might it possibly be the 'second hand vans for sale' lists and associated data, or again could it be the reports by individuals of their favourite travel spots. These subjects seem to average maybe a dozen pages or so in each edition, and MMM has been in existence for a long time, so although it doesn't please all the readers all the time, it must be doing something right or it would die. I seem to remember something about a reader survey was propopsed (or am I dreaming) Personally I dont subscribe, enabling me to pick and choose which mag to buy, but frequently it is MMM. For my own interest, I have 'written up' 6 page reminder of our travels with pics for both our 2010 wanderings in Germany, and our 2011 6 week adventures to the south of France. I doubt that either comes up to the standard required for publication, but in the years to come, we will be able to reminisce. What to readers want, and if they don't like what they currently get why do they buy it ??? tonyg3nwl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 I no longer subscribe to any of the motorhome magazines. I see them usefully filling in any small gaps in my life and 'looking impressive on the coffee table'. Therefore, I still buy the occasional magazine. I remember reading an article in another motorhome magazine giving useful tips for an average DIY person. In the first paragraph of one article, it said "remove the engine"! I cancelled my subscription immediately. During a period of incapacity in the 90's, I wrote numerous articles for motorhome and caravan magazines. The standard expected was very high. Sometimes I wonder whether the standards have dropped and then suddenly I find an absolute gem of a beautifully crafted and informative article. There is undoubtedly a difference between the better articles written by professional journalists, even if they do not motorhome, and the inconsistent ones written by amateurs. At work, I write occasional articles for the in-house magazines. They are then revised in consultation with me by the in-house journalist into a much better article. Perhaps the in-house motorhome journalists at MMM should spend more time improving the quality of submissions. Making it harder to get published by raising the standards expected will not please those who like to see themselves in print. However, it will raise the appeal of the magazine to others. I defend Warners though. They produce a range of magazines for special interest groups like motorhomers. They will know their market much better than we do. They will also be much more capable of hitting that market than we would be. Over 34,000 people read the mag so they must be getting something right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted July 23, 2011 Share Posted July 23, 2011 Just found this guide to writing for MMM http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/open/?page=write-for-MMM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor166uk Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I find all the magazines dissapointing in terms of impartiality. I found the comments regarding the necessity for MMM not to be too critical of manufaturers illuminating and it goes some way to helping me understand why the reviews are so banal. But am I the only one who was thoroughly unconvinced by the findings of a recent club for caravanners annual motorhomes awards? They had several categories (Van conversions up to and beyond a certain price, Low profiles below and above a certain price, A classes, and so on) and in each and every category the top 3 were all UK built conversions with the european vans coming nowhere. The only exception to this was A classes, where of course no UK converter makes one. This bias towards UK makers is in my opinion not limited to the club magazine but is displayed by all the magazines, and has put me off buying them. I do not think european vans are always better thasn UK ones, but I do think they are better than the magazines portray them as being. I just do not find it credible that not one single foreign convertaer can get a single product into a single top 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trevor166uk Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I find all the magazines dissapointing in terms of impartiality. I found the comments regarding the necessity for MMM not to be too critical of manufaturers illuminating and it goes some way to helping me understand why the reviews are so banal. But am I the only one who was thoroughly unconvinced by the findings of a recent club for caravanners annual motorhomes awards? They had several categories (Van conversions up to and beyond a certain price, Low profiles below and above a certain price, A classes, and so on) and in each and every category the top 3 were all UK built conversions with the european vans coming nowhere. The only exception to this was A classes, where of course no UK converter makes one. This bias towards UK makers is in my opinion not limited to the club magazine but is displayed by all the magazines, and has put me off buying them. I do not think european vans are always better thasn UK ones, but I do think they are better than the magazines portray them as being. I just do not find it credible that not one single foreign convertaer can get a single product into a single top 3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 I used to write columns and reviews for various model car magazines and race reports. My reports and columns were widely respected and read because I always told the truth. It often got me in trouble with editors but strangely enough I remained on good terms with most manufacturers because they new that a review that was mainly positive but may contain some negatives would be believed and expected by the readers. On race reports I could do nothing. Either a car won or did not and if any make kept failing to finish then it was up to the manufacturer improve matters and I often helped them to do just that. As far as reviews went I did often send copies to the manufacturer in advance so that they had a chance to comment on them and possibly report on intended improvements. If a car was really bad I would simply return the car with my comments and revise to do a review until improvements had been made Manufacturers who attempt to lean on magazines should realise the public are not stupid and recognise a canny floss review for what it is but will respect a review that is obviously honest. For what it is worth I think the reviews in MMM are as good as is possible under the circumstances. They may well and never can be perfect but they do contain a wealth of useful information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted July 24, 2011 Share Posted July 24, 2011 Sorry about the spelling and odd wrong word in the above but I'm struggling to come to terms with my iPad. May be I should go back to the lap top for this kind of work. Some times it changes word and I fail to notice then it won't let me go back and change it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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