Derek Uzzell Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 It seems plain from this earlier thread http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=21924&posts=15 that headlamps factory-fitted to LHD X/250 vehicles are unable to meet the requirements of the UK MOT test (presumably) because they dip to the right. There's no doubt, as has been previously said, that headlamps fitted to vehicles (ignoring 2-wheelers) destined for the UK market, or imported into the UK, must have headlamps producing an assymetric, left-dipping pattern to comply with the UK's vehicle-registration regulations. If (as seems probable) it's the case that headlamps factory-fitted to RHD X/250s dip left, it might be worth pressing Fiat's Technical Department regarding the advice given to Derek Pringle. There are really two questions it would be worth asking: 1. Do 'RHD' X/250 headlamps produce an assymetric left-dipping beam pattern? 2. If so, why are beam deflectors not required when the vehicle is to be driven in Continental Europe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 derek pringle - 2011-07-28 1:07 PM Hi David, Having just bought a 2011 Bessacarr 660 and previously a 2010 Bessacarr 630 I dont think anybody should say I am trying to save a few quid,do you. On the contrary my information came about whilst trying to source hopefully some really well made deflectors dedicated if possible to the model,regardless of cost. I would definitely not spend a fair amount of money on a M/H and then put bits of sticky back plastic on it. I thought Fiat would be the place to get the proper jobby but as I said I was told they were not required, however, being dubious I contacted the Technical Dept. and they confirmed the position. The one thing about this forum is it always gets you thinking and putting doubt in your mind,makes you wonder exactly where you need to go to establish the need and type,as obviously ill fitted deflectors could be as dangerous or more than no deflectors. cheers derek Hi Derek - please accept my apologies, my comments were not specifically aimed at you but at the general notion that it may be OK to just try and 'get away' without fitting deflectors. And, apart from disregarding the law, this attitude also disregards the safety of other motorists which the same law is designed to protect in the first place. Like you, I didn't really want to start sticking any old tape over what clearly are high specification plastics (I have previosly used white insulation tape which doesn't tend to reflect the heat back onto the headlamp as much as black) but decided instead to go down the route of headlamp protectors permanently fitted with masks. This way I can fit them on the train/ferry and remove them on the way back with no worry over correct positioning. My comments regarding the Fiat chappie are simply that, even if he believes his comments to be true, the law may still require you to have the headlights deflected. As Derek points out there is some room here for doubt that I would want to be clear on first before venturing abroad without beam deflection of any sort. Best regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbotham Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 david lloyd - 2011-07-28 5:11 PM My comments regarding the Fiat chappie are simply that, even if he believes his comments to be true, the law may still require you to have the headlights deflected. Best regards, David I guess my question of the Fiat guy would have been if he's correct and the beam is flat, why do Fiat sell covers/protectors for the X2/50 - of the type you've got - with associated masks for blocking the beam? For me this is nothing to do with avoiding fines, and everything to do with having the courtesy not to dazzle the locals of the countries I'm visiting. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camperdude Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Whilst I wouldn't suggest anyone ignore the law regarding beam deflectors, I wonder how much dazzle is really caused by a RHD vehicle driving on the opposite carriageway as in Europe with the usual dip to the left. If this was really dazzling, then every pedestrian facing oncoming traffic in the UK would be dazzled, and UK traffic overtaking on a dual carriageway or lanes 2 and 3 on a motorway would dazzle every driver who observed them in their rear view mirror. I can't say I've noticed pedestrians covering their eyes as a drive towards them, and I've never been dazzled in my mirrors when being overtaken in the UK except by drivers forgetting to switch between main and dipped beam. As the beam is meant to dip to the left to give improved illumination to the pavement/verge it's unlikely anyone is going to be dazzled by it. Modern super-bright headlamps and idiots who think putting their front fog lights on in broad daylight makes their car look sporty are a different matter though! *-) John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-07-28 9:14 AM lennyhb - 2011-07-27 11:26 AM ...As for the comments that the X250 does not need beam deflectors I can see this being the case with LHD vans as LHD vehicles normally have straight dip beam but RHD UK vehicles have an asymmetrical beam pattern defecting the beam to the left so deflectors would still be required on UK spec. RHD vans. I'm interested in your generalisation regarding LHD vehicles. As far as I'm aware the headlamp dipped-beam pattern of LHD vehicles will be a 'mirror image' of the pattern of RHD equivalents. Certainly RHD Transit headlamps have an asymmetric left-dipping pattern, while LHD Transits have an asymmetric right-dipping pattern. As it's common sense to have an asymmetric headlamp dipped-beam pattern to minimise dazzle for oncoming vehicles, it would be an odd situation for LHD vehicles patterns to be conceptually different from RHD patterns. I stand corrected Derek my info was a bit old, the UK changed to asymmetric dipping before the rest of Europe. Nowadays all countries comply with ECE regulations apart from USA & Canada who use their SAE Regulations.own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 On-line comments suggest the possibility that headlamp protectors/beam-deflectors for RHD Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot X/250 vehicles are nowadays only available from 3rd-parties and not from Citroen, Fiat or Peugeot themselves. If that's so, then simply asking Fiat representatives whether beam-deflectors are available for RHD X/250 headlamps may well result in a negative reply. Similarly, if the deflectors are not on the Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot parts list, it may be assumed that no action is needed regarding RHD X/250 headlamps when the vehicle is to be driven in 'right-hand traffic' countries. Having said that, I came across the following on the Citroen Picasso Owners' Club website: "According to Citroen, beam-benders etc are not required for driving C4 Picassos in France. This is their response to my question: Thank you for your e-mail dated 5 July 2009. I can confirm that there is no legal requirement to mask your headlamps for use on the continent. This is due to the 'Z' pattern beam that is created by the new Citroen headlights, fitted as standard across the Citroen C4 Picasso range, rather than a standard flat beam on conventional headlights. The only stipulation is that the headlamps do not dazzle oncoming drivers and this applies equally to driving here in the UK as to abroad. Drivers should have the headlamp adjustment checked before travelling. If still concerned, they could at this time have the height of the headlamp beam set to a lower position. This would reduce the possibility of dazzling even further. It must not be forgotten that any such adjustment would impair the visibility provided by the headlamps at night. Just as with masked headlamps, modifying the headlamp adjustment will reduce the effectiveness and, therefore, driving speeds must always be adapted to take this into account. Yours sincerely CITROEN UK LIMITED" I used to use Cibié 'Z-beam' headlamp units in my Golf GTi cars back in the 1980s. The dipped-beam pattern had two flat steps, rather than (for a RHD vehicle) the usual left part of the beam-pattern being angled upwards. But the Z-beam's left step was still higher than the right and the pattern was still asymmetric. The AA's website carries information on driving in Europe, including advice on headlights: http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/general_advice.html http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/compulsory_equipment.html http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/touring_tips/compulsory_equipment.pdf The AA's basic advice is as follows: "The legal requirement is to ‘not dazzle oncoming drivers’ rather than specifically to adjust/convert the headlamp beam pattern. Without adjustment the dipped beam will dazzle oncoming drivers and this could result in a fine. Headlamp beam converter kits are widely available but may not be suitable for all types of headlights..... In some countries it is compulsory to use dipped headlights at all times when driving during the day. Note: this adjustment is not required for two wheeled vehicles as the beam pattern is more symmetrical but check that any extra loading has not affected the beam height. On some cars it is inadvisable or impossible for anyone other than a qualified technician to change a headlamp bulb unit e.g. high intensity discharge (HID) headlamps and carrying spares is not an option. However, it is recommended that spare bulbs are carried for any lights that may be easily and/or safely replaced by the owner/driver. Spare bulbs are compulsory for Croatia." As has been said before on this motorhome forum (and on many others) it should normally be possible to meet the 'not dazzle oncoming drivers' stipulation merely by deflecting the dipped-beam well downwards using the dashboard adjuster now fitted to most light-commercial vehicles. But it's anybody's guess how much downwards deflection would be needed to simultaneously produce acceptable 'non dazzling' and adequate night-time forward vision. I would suggest that, if you have your RHD motorhome's headlamps set so that (while driving in the UK) their dipped-beam maximises night-time forward vision without dazzling oncoming drivers, it would be surprising ('Z-beam' lights or otherwise) if oncoming drivers 'on the Continent' were not dazzled unless you did something positive to prevent this (eg.fitted deflectors/masks or adjusted the headlamps' dipped-beam downwards). As headlamp protectors/beam-deflectors for X/250 vehicles are apparently readily available http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250678490681#ht_500wt_703 as are the cheap-as-chips 'Eurolites'-type stick-on translucent beam-benders, there seems to be no problem 'deflecting' the headlamps of RHD X/250 motorhomes for Continental European touring if the vehicle owner so wishes. Conversely, if the motorhome owner doesn't so wish, either because he/she considers it a waste of money or has been convinced by a credible authority that it's unnecessary, then why bother to argue about it? It's a waste of time trying to rationalise the use/non-use of X/250 deflectors/masks - you either choose to fit them or you don't. A couple of other links that might be useful and/or entertain... http://www.deepredmotorhome.com/headlampdeflectors.html http://www.forum-auto.com/automobile-pratique/securite/sujet377622.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 I have been following this thread with some dismay. Such basic information should not be hard to come by, it should be in the driver's handbook and the sort of thing that any dealer should be able to quote at the drop of a hat. Why is it so difficult for FIAT (and their clones) to supply such information? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Hi All, Could anybody tell me what the possible consequences would be of fitting deflectors on a "they will do no harm " basis. I can see it would be a visual for the police but could they have a dangerous effect on the road. I see companies sell deflectors for the Fiat but wonder if different models/different years mean different needs. I intend contacting both Fiat again and the R.A.C. I will keep you posted. cheers derek David, Thanks for your response Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbotham Posted July 29, 2011 Share Posted July 29, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-07-29 9:15 AM On-line comments suggest the possibility that headlamp protectors/beam-deflectors for RHD Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot X/250 vehicles are nowadays only available from 3rd-parties and not from Citroen, Fiat or Peugeot themselves. Can't comment on that Derek as mine came from a 3rd party, but they came in a Fiat box & bear a Fiat logo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Rosbotham - 2011-07-29 9:37 PM Derek Uzzell - 2011-07-29 9:15 AM On-line comments suggest the possibility that headlamp protectors/beam-deflectors for RHD Citroen/Fiat/Peugeot X/250 vehicles are nowadays only available from 3rd-parties and not from Citroen, Fiat or Peugeot themselves. Can't comment on that Derek as mine came from a 3rd party, but they came in a Fiat box & bear a Fiat logo. I've never read/heard anything to suggest that the design of X/250 headlights is other than 'universal' across the X/250 model ranges or that the design has been altered since the X/250 was released in mid-1996. If there haven't been changes to the headlight design and assuming that the protectors/deflectors you bought are genuine Fiat parts (and there's every reason to think they are from what you say), then it has to be asked why Fiat marketed these things including beam-masks if there's no need for the deflectors/masks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 spospe - 2011-07-29 9:33 AM I have been following this thread with some dismay. Such basic information should not be hard to come by, it should be in the driver's handbook and the sort of thing that any dealer should be able to quote at the drop of a hat. Why is it so difficult for FIAT (and their clones) to supply such information? It isn't difficult for Fiat to supply the info AND THEY DO, it's in my handbook edition8 published oct 2010 It quite clearly states that the headlamps are specific to the country in which they are designed to be used (checking the lamps themselves they are also clearly marked in my case as RHD) and the handbook clearly states that for use in countries driving on opposite side of road masks should be applied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted July 30, 2011 Share Posted July 30, 2011 Fiat Headlamp Deflectors are available from main agents, I have a set and they are marked with the position of the masking area. They are very easy to fit and remove and sometimes I just leave them on all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Hi, Fullest apologies and thanks to forum members.After being told no deflectors needed by 2 sources[see previous posting] I took to scouring the handbook, thanks Colin, and there it is. IT says to use plastic flims if driving abroad. Must say I had to look for this info,thought it would have been with lights operation but there you go. Off to buy some deflectors now,any recommendations for plastic flimsies? Thanks again forum cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 derek pringle - 2011-08-02 9:21 AM Hi, Fullest apologies and thanks to forum members.After being told no deflectors needed by 2 sources[see previous posting] I took to scouring the handbook, thanks Colin, and there it is. IT says to use plastic flims if driving abroad. Must say I had to look for this info,thought it would have been with lights operation but there you go. Off to buy some deflectors now,any recommendations for plastic flimsies? Thanks again forum cheers derek I understand that Ann Summers shops do a nice line in "plastic flimsies" but, for headlight beam deflectors, I suggest you use the Eurolites-branded product that's widely available (Halfords, ferries, on-line) http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_172996_langId_-1_categoryId_165458 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-08-02 9:44 AM http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_172996_langId_-1_categoryId_165458 Crikey some people have money to throw away, have a look here: Lenny's price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david lloyd Posted August 2, 2011 Share Posted August 2, 2011 derek pringle - 2011-08-02 9:21 AM Hi, Fullest apologies and thanks to forum members.After being told no deflectors needed by 2 sources[see previous posting] I took to scouring the handbook, thanks Colin, and there it is. IT says to use plastic flims if driving abroad. Must say I had to look for this info,thought it would have been with lights operation but there you go. Off to buy some deflectors now,any recommendations for plastic flimsies? Thanks again forum cheers derek Hi Derek If you are still interested in going down the route of headlight protectors (with masking area) I bought mine form Steve Beevers at Van Comfort - www.vancomfort.co.uk - email address is sales@vancomfort.co.uk and the telephone number (Retford area) is 01777 701804. I only know him through purchasing the protectors. I ordered them from him and collected them at one of the shows he attends but he also sent me replacement set of clips when I inadvertently dropped one in the engine bay - never to be found again! These are marked as genuine FIAT products and are very good quality. Regards, David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 Thanks for the help guys. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 3, 2011 Share Posted August 3, 2011 I have read several posts over the past few years saying that the x2/50 and 'all' new vans have flat dipping beams, well I hope this photo taken tonight puts this to bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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