Guest JudgeMental Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Well in Europe prices are more realistic...Get yourselves to a German show and I think you will be surprised even with the poor exchange rate. Our Adria Twin SP (MMM panel van of the year) with all the extras cost us about £38,000 by the time we fitted RHD headlights and had the speedo converted.Still expensive I think when you compare it with coachbuilts, but have never really liked them anyway and as Mike says they leak and can be problematic... ours had lots of damp issues which only came to light when we PX'd It. to my utter surprise the dealer went ahead with the deal but he checked with EuraMobil first that warranty was still live and would cover the work..... 32 deg C here in lake Garda today. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Basil - 2011-08-09 5:02 PM Mel with respect the title of the thread is PVC prices!! not whether someone should buy a particular variant or not, it is a shame that the thread appears to have scewed off in that direction. Now I would totally agree that what suits one may not suit another and each to their own, a PVC would certainly suit us, the original question is surely questioning the value for money. Now whilst I respect the fact that anyone can buy whatever they wish, for example I could if I chose afford any of the offerings whatever the cost, the shear poor value for money is what I agree with the origional poster about. I detest people being ripped off and that is how I see the current offerings and why I am looking down the buy a van and have it converted route, where on the face of it there is a lot to be saved. So my point is if they can do it on basically a one off bespoke top of the range fitted out van, how can the 'big' producers justify their prices with the economies of scale? Answers on a postage stamp......... Bas If a potential purchasers feels they are being ripped off or are not getting value for money they don't buy. Its as simple as that. Those who buy panel vans are clearly prepared to pay the price they pay and market forces determine the going rate. I have noticed at shows that interest in panel van conversions is high and perhaps a trend is developing for people to downsize or at least think about doing so. I agree that you appear to get less real estate for your money but there are benefits which offset this. Another observation from personal experience is that panel vans are in high demand when you come to sell and depreciation is minimal. My last van - a 2002 Duetto - bought in 2002 at 3 months old was sold in 2010 for a loss of only £4000 although I doubt whether such good fortune will be repeated when I come to sell my present PVC but who knows. At least any purchaser will be less likely to have concerns to worry about rotting floors and water leaks and will find it far easier and neighbourly to park their vehicle at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 mel wood - 2011-08-09 1:08 PM 1footinthegrave - 2011-08-09 12:44 PM You all seem to be overlooking a simple free market premise, most goods are priced according to what the market will stand, some mugs will just pay without question, In your opinion they are mugs. Obviously some people want panel van conversions, including small ones for their particular requirements. Why should they be called mugs if that is the choice they make, they can afford the van of their choice and it meets their needs and rquirements? To quote Tracker (without his permission so I hope he doesn't mind): "There are no right or wrong ways - just different". Having said that I repeat my earlier sentiment that £51,000 for an Auto-Sleepers Trident is ridiculous (but it may be that some people will buy them).Yeah........... Mugs. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mel wood Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 It would be a pity if this thread degenerates into something unpleasant. It seems to be going that way! Each to their own way..........and van! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Quite right Mel. I'm thoroughly ashamed of myself. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 My 'Ideal' PVC would have been the Autosleeper Topaz, but no way would i pay £53,000 for one ! OK, the VW T5 is expensive as a base vehicle,but not THAT expensive, I wonder if Autosleeper are trying to quietly 'kill it off' to placate Peugeot ?? (just my conspiricy theory!). Also Hillside (of Mazda Bongo fame) are doing a 'Topaz' copy (the' Thulston' in Aug MMM) for £ 12000 pounds less ! I would have to check over the quality of course, but £12000 is a wide margin of differance, think Autosleeper need to revise their prices a 'Tad'. ;-) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Rayjsj - 2011-08-10 8:49 AM I wonder if Autosleeper are trying to quietly 'kill it off' to placate Peugeot ?? (just my conspiricy theory!). Ray Well Ray, they Autosleeper have got rid of Ford, next Volkswagen ?? and then the customers and they can then all go on a permanent holiday without the stress of business or even attempting to satisfy Customers. Simples !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 There'a a Topaz review on http://www.auto-sleepers.co.uk/uploads/reviews/Topaz_Chris%20Burlace.pdf and the high price-tag is mentioned at the end. £53k is indeed a significant asking-price for a PVC (or for any new motorhome as far as I'm concerned), but a new Ferrari 458 Italia car would probably have an asking-price of around £200k in the UK and there's currently an e-bay advert for a 2ndhand Bugatti Veyron at £929,990 and neither of these vehicles has a kitchen or a toilet. If A-S can get people to pay £53k for a Topaz (does anyone pay the full asking-price for a vehicle nowadays?) then good luck to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peejay Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 What surprises me is for that price they can't even be bothered to colour code the fridge and heating vent covers or the mains input cover. That is unforgiveable on a van of this price. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Whilst not justifying their price I guess you have to factor in to the mix that this vehicle would lend itself to everyday transport thereby saving the capital outlay and costs of running a car as well. But agree with the above post about the lack of colour codind, I mean what would that cost, a tenner for a couple of cans of spray paint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobalobs Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 We bought our first van, a Vw Devon Moonraker, in 1985 from aperson who found it too small for hiswife and two growing children. Said he was going to buy a caravan and when I asked why not a coachbuilt he said he would never risk his children in the back of a coachbuilt in an accident. It maybe that coachbuilts are stronger with better front facing seating on modern models though this may be disputed by some but that comment and seeing coachbuilt vans doing Europe and vibrating themselves apart on Greek backroads a few years later has been one of the main reasons we have stuck with PVCs. Our current van , A 2010 Morello cost £4600 and though better value than a Trident it is still a lot of money but to us it is worth it. And yet last weekend we were with a friend who had just bought a 2002 long wheelbase Renault Master fitted with aircon, Eberspacherheating, slidingwindows with blinds,overheadlockers in a pvc lined roof and a rear hoist and winch. Cost £1500 on Ebay and it was a London ambulance complete with oxygen eqipment!! Bet it will take Greek backroads in its stride and what coachbuilt if any would you get for £1500? Horses for courses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 We started researching vans in 2003, and from the outset it was obvious PVCs were more expensive than coachbuilts, and provided less useful accommodation. The reason, as I learned, is that converting a panel van is a slow process, during which only one person can work inside at a time. The smaller converters are unable to get the bulk discounts on purchase of vans, fridges, heaters, toilets etc, and make a lot of their furniture and furnishings in labour intensive fashion. So the unit costs are higher, so the net price is higher, so the volume is lower, so the turnover is lower, so the unit profit is higher, so the selling price is much increased. Since then the big converters (Hymer, Trigano, Adria etc) have moved into PVCs. Comparatively, their prices are lower because they have rationalised, and streamlined, production, by buying the furniture in bespoke modules from the likes of Technoform, so that it is installed unit by unit, rather than being built up in-situ, use pre fabricated wiring looms, pre-formed gas pipework and water pipework, and gain advantage from their huge group discounts on van bodies, heaters, fridges etc. What they produce is significantly cheaper in general, and often to a higher specification, than the small producers can achieve. However, the ranges of options are more limited, and the layouts are "take it or leave it". Most of these are more expensive in UK than in Europe, because they only have to be priced to compete with the more expensive UK small volume producers. However, when compared to the same groups' small coachbuilts, even their PVCs are expensive. If you want a cheapish PVC, of fair to good quality, you really need to look at the imports, and even better, to look at importing for yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Brian, From your comments I draw the conclusion that Autosleepers is a small concern with low volumes and therefore high prices. Is that correct? mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 mike 202 - 2011-08-10 3:57 PM Brian, From your comments I draw the conclusion that Autosleepers is a small concern with low volumes and therefore high prices. Is that correct? mike Compared to the Likes of Hymer and Trigano, in terms of volumes produced, yes. Most (in fact I think all) UK producers (even Auto Trail, owned by Trigano) produce only for the UK market. Anyone in the UK with real ambition would gear up to export to Europe. Just think, all those other countries that drive on the right, just across the channel. The large European converters produce, by and large, for the whole of Europe. The UK is a side-dish for them, only profitable because we pay higher prices for the same product. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 Just had a quick look and have found 2008 price list for Adria, this has two near identicle models one a PVC other coachbuilt, i.e. Twin and Compact 580 Price for Twin PVC £30947 Price for Compact coachbuilt £33327 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted August 10, 2011 Share Posted August 10, 2011 I still find it hard to reconcile how Hillside manage to produce a 'viable' Topaz 'Clone' for £ 12,000 less than Autosleeper ? ? without coming to the conclusion that Autosleeper are 'Con Artistes' trading on their 'Past' quality performance. And I still think that they are trying to 'get rid' of VW as a base vehicle, as they did with Fords. Less choice again for the Consumer. not everyone wants a Sevel base . Some for very good reasons. Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Oops! *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 http://duemo-duelmen.de/poessl/video.html Here is a video of how the big boys in Europe do it... The likes of Hymer, Adria, Globecar/Possl have economies of scale and can afford to mass produce proper internal panels amd furniture. You get a nicely finished van that looks as good inside as any coachbuilt. Our Adria is very well featured and finished. If you are happy paying more and buying vans that still use cheap grey carpet as a liner then by all means go ahead...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 First off my apologies for not having contributed to this very interesting thread since my initial post but I have been away on business. Seems to me that there are many peeps with the same view as me. Whilst I accept that building a pvc may be time consuming / labour intensive (I'm still not convinced) I still cant understand how anyone can justify the cost when you get more for your pound with a coachbuilt. The argument about easy parking, easy driving blah blah blah doesnt really cut it with me either because there are many caochbuilts which are short wheelbase and not much wider than a pvc and still offer more/better facilities. Our coachbuilt is 6m long and 2.3m wide and its a doddle to drive. Dont get me wrong I think some PVC's look great in fact when we first sold our boat in june 09 and went round the dealers with a big wad of cash to spend we were looking at PVC's because I had this idea that they looked cool and I could go down any country lane etc etc. I soon changed my mind when I looked at a few, (I didnt need to take our cat with me to realise that there was no way I could swing her around in one). I could still have been tempted to "rough it" if the price had been right however I dont mind spending money in fact I quite like it but I want value for money and the minimal spec offered by a PVC just didnt add up on my calculator. If I was still young enough and fit enough to prance around the car park at widemouth bay in me zuma jay wetsuit then I can think of nothing more cool to get changed in or put me surf board on than a £51k VW thingy however theres no way I would spend a weekend away in one now cos I like a bit of comfort and more importantly I like a bit of value for money. ips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 In principle, I'd opt for Rapido's Van V56 as, when we saw one at the NEC exhibition, it was the only PVC that appeared to (roughly) satisfy what we'd want regarding interior layout and facilities, and the asking-price (around £40k) didn't seem too outrageous when one bore in mind that Rapido had completely replaced the Ducato's hideous 'froggy' front panel and clad the vehicle's interior with a hard-wearing polyester 'shell'. Of course we'd never buy one, as I'd rather cut off both my legs with a blunt knife than purchase an Italian-made vehicle. For anyone interested, see: http://www.rapido.fr/sites/gbr/prod.php?ref=v56&serie=van (Can't say I understand Ray's argument that Auto-Sleepers "are trying to 'get rid' of VW as a base vehicle, as they did with Fords". The stated reason for A-S dropping the Ford base was that modifications in the offing for the Transit chassis could impact adversely on then-current A-S Ford-based motorhomes making it difficult to accept orders for those models. As most of the Transit-based A-S models were very closely matched by a Peugeot-based equivalent, it seems sensible with hindsight that A-S should have decided to move away from Ford. However, as the VW-based Trident, Trooper and Topaz models have no obvious equivalents elsewhere in the A-S model ranges, why should A-S choose not to build them as long as there are customers to pay for them? Logically, a business doesn't cease to produce something that's profitable and it's difficult to understand why (as Ray seems to be suggesting) A-S would deliberately price their VW-based designs so high just to ensure that nobody will buy them.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 That's a very good point about the "grey carpet" judge'.. ..When we were looking at PVCs awhile back,the slightly "more affordable" makes that we looked at(Devon,Wildax etc) did,disappointingly have a slight "selfbuild" look to them(carpet wall linning,"conti-board" looking furniture..) :-( ..and I don't really want to be sitting in something and be forever thinking..."..we could've made something similar to this.." :-S (..no offence intened to any Devon,Wildax owners out there.... :$ ) Edit: That Rapido looks very smart.. ;-) (..still pricey for a van with a bit of furniture screwed in it though.. (lol) ..and thinking about it now,although a van conversion would let us do away with the car, unfortunately,all the continental vans seem to have an "off-side" sliding door..(...and we don't travel abroad yet as we're both still working.. ;-) ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted August 11, 2011 Author Share Posted August 11, 2011 Watched a bit of judges vid, untill I got bored after about 3 mins then I fast fwd it. Cant say that it looked a particularily difficult piece of engineering and there was more than one chappy working on it. As someone stated on an earlier post once you have done one then the following builds will be a doddle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hymerwoman Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I am with the judge on this one. Makes my timberland look old and boring. The carpeted walls really look dated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manu Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 Hi Judge....did you enjoy your travels firstly ? Would you change anything in the Adria now you have bedded down in it ? What are the down sides if any and what made you go for the Adria compared to the other PVC's out there ? Your experience on these matters are priceless in the downsizing market ! Did you at any point whilst away miss your coachbuilt ? Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted August 11, 2011 Share Posted August 11, 2011 I hope this does not turn into a coachbuilt versus PVC debate. I can only give my view after downsizing. I hated driving both my previous coachbuilts what with those big sticky out mirrors, and all the conversion rattles that drove me nuts, one a fixed bed had acres of almost unusable space underneath, unless you wanted to go into people smuggling, or booze cruises. When we first went to do the changeover we imagined having to dump stuff that we carried, but to our surprise we found we had space to spare, due to the design of our IH LWB with a one piece rear end ( no doors) but a useful small boot instead. It drives like a car, goes like stink with it's 2.8 jtd, and returns 33 to as much as 37 mpg that we managed on our last trip to france. I would add that we did very briefly have a Trigano PVC that we soon got rid of because of the design layout so you do have to be careful, what may appear ideal on a dealers forecourt can turn into something different in reality. At the end of the day life is about compromise, we find the IH PVC the best compromise for us, oh and we've dumped the car so that was a bonus !. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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