Syd Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Was considering selling our gold as I thought that gold must have almost peaked then along came the little side show of the downgrade, think I will hang on for a while longer. Anyone disagree >:-) >:-) :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 I suppose it is the little matter of how much you are talking about. If it is the wife’s wedding ring then you may have just a little trouble getting it off her finger, unless you chop that off as well. Plus, while it is of value (hopefully) to her, it may not raise enough to clear the mortgage. If you have enough to interest a bullion dealer then any chance of a small loan???? I must admit I am slightly amused by the news telling us of people rushing ‘into the safe haven of gold’. Yes, in theory it is but what happens when you have to sell the stuff. All you will get is lots of small pieces of paper called banknotes, which immediately start to lose value with inflation. So, you keep it in gold and next time you walk into the newsagents and ask for a Daily M..l and 20 B& Hedges, you plonk your bar on the counter and ask him to shave off enough to cover the sale. Not really practical is it? I read somewhere that a bar of gold is about ¼ million quids worth, so sorry, a bit out of my league. Of course, you may be talking about these Companies always advertising that they will buy your old gold jewellery etc, and will give you about 20% of its value. Actually if you need advice on buying, or especially selling gold, then chat to Gordon Brown. He knows exactly how to do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 It is not as black and white as that Dave - there are circa ten ways to invest in gold. Somepeople like the real stuff and purchase Soverigns or Kruger rands - have to say the soft feel of that metal is addictive!!! - But if people want "exposure" to gold - then you can get that via your pension fund, or any other investment - even an ISA 1. Gold Bars Gold Bars are measured in metric sizes, and come in a variety of sizes. The price is usually the same as the price on the stock exchange for that day. In addition to the price per ounce, you pay a premium for marketing and manufacture. This price also varies according to the size of the bar, but gets more expensive per gramme the smaller the size. 2. Sovereigns We Brits tend to favour 22 carat gold sovereigns. Coins of all dates are sought after, but the older they are the more expensive. Coins from the Victorian era are therefore the most desirable, but the coins that are more readily available are coins dating from 1887 – 1982. 3. Kruger Rands South African Kruger Rands are another popular option. These also come in various sizes. 4. Exchange-traded funds Technically, ETF’s are not funds because they follow a single security. ETF gold securities are traded on the London Stock Exchange. They track the gold price and can be traded daily – all you pay is a small dealing charge. They are also regulated financial products. Visit www.exchangetradedgold.com or www.etfsecurities.com for more information. 5. Unit trusts and investment trusts When a company invests in gold shares, they often make unit trusts or investment trusts available for purchase through their company. Gold mining equities tend to be more volatile than the gold price though. Ask your IFA for an analysis of where and what your funds are invested in - you will be surprised if you do not already know! 6. Gold accounts Gold bullion banks offer two types of gold account – allocated and unallocated. An allocated account is like keeping gold in a safety deposit box and is the most secure form of investment in physical gold. The gold is stored in a vault owned and managed by a recognised bullion dealer or depository. With an unallocated account, on the other hand, investors do not have specific bars allotted to them. One advantage of unallocated accounts is the absence of storage or insurance charges, as the bank reserves the right to lease the gold out. 7. Gold shares You can buy individual shares of companies that either trade or mine gold. There is a discount between the price of gold and gold shares. 8. Jewellery Jewellery isn’t considered a serious investment. Jewellery should hold its value and rise with inflation, but won’t ever sell at the exact price per ounce as set by the stock exchange because of Jewellers wanting a profit for themselves. 9. Gold certificates Gold certificates offer a way for investors to hold gold without physical delivery which is kept by the bank. 10. Structured products Brokers sell various structured products for investing in gold and other commodities, while supposedly limiting risk. Structured products usually hold a high minimum investment. For this reason, institutional investors dominate the market. Structured products are typically five-year plans that aim to pay you a set return and limit your downside risk. Hope this helps! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted August 13, 2011 Share Posted August 13, 2011 Not being a financial expert, so take no notice of what I say. I think that gold is probably as high as it will go, ok maybe it will go a little higher but I think the gravy...Whoop's, I mean gold train has just left the station. In hindsight Wednesday may have been the best time to sell gold and then with the profit bought shares on Thursday. Our financial expert Lord Thornber (Martyn) who made a bit when the shares were low last time maybe able to give us some pointers :-D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 The serious question is will Gold continue to rise, there are "experts" out there saying that it could go as high as 2500 dollars per oz and "speculators" saying five and six thousand dollars per oz. Really could do with a few more credit ratings being lowered. Can anyone see the Euro/Dollar/GBPound government bonds etc being seen as a safe investment for a while yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 US Bonds are still OK - they have only been downgraded to AA+ from AAA - compare that to the virtual junk bond status of Greece and Ireland for example and it puts Americas position into some sort of perspective. http://www.cnbc.com/id/43906266/Greece_s_Debt_Rating_Spirals_Further_Into_Junk_Status Our position here in the UK is under threat but despite the bleatings of some - the coalitions action to reduce debt is well thought of by the likes of S&P and Moody's. Our rating is still AAA - Greece in marked contrast had its rating reduced yet further end of July from CCC to CC. - And yet this country is part of the Euro!!!! - How can this be? The US does not have States or groups of States so badly run that they are a joke!! A far bigger problem for us is Europe - which if we see the average German "en mass" saying "No" to any more money being paid to the corrupt countries in the south, we could see a break up. Long overdue in my opinion because all European politicians have their fingers in their ears singing La la la la la................... The fixed interest sector (high quality - not so much the high income bonds) will continue to perform well whilst we have low interest rates. But I must emphasise the need for QUALITY!!! The fixed interest sector is a reasonable safe haven - but it is a bit late know if you have not yet set your position. Prices for Quality are high so relative value is low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Sorry! Oooops dept. "Bit late now"! Not "know" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 nowtelse2do - 2011-08-13 7:51 PM Our financial expert Lord Thornber (Martyn) who made a bit when the shares were low last time maybe able to give us some pointers :-D Dave Financial Expert, no pressure then, cheers Dave :D Well last week on Monday & Tuesday I put as much spare as I had into our portfolio. It had fallen from as little as 3% to as much as 12%. I base my investing on some pretty simple guidelines, some borrowed from so-called experts, some from amateurs like myself. My basics are.. I never invest any money I may need short/medium term I never buy funds or shares that I'm not prepared to keep indefinitely I do buy more into a fund or share if it's value/price has fallen considerably. (You need balls for this) I like Warren Buffets line of "the best time to sell a share is never" Elephants, (HSBC/Diageo/BT etc), don't gallop, i.e you won't get rich quick with them, so don't be in a hurry with blue chips Example: Fund A I bought into in May 2011, I paid £3.50 per share, it rose to £3.80 but fell back to £3.10 with the recent turbulence. My thinking is quite simple, if I'm happy to pay £3.50, why wouldn't I pay £3.10 if it's a fund or share I intend to keep long term? Some call this "averaging down" and advise against it - not me though. Lady T holds Standard Life as part of the freebies she got via her pension. They're rock solid (in my view), always knocking around the £2+ mark A decent dividend is paid to boot. She has no intention of selling them until a World cruise/facelift etc beckons. So why not add to them if you're holding them when they fell to summt like £1.60 last week? I've playing around in this game ('cos that's what it is - a game), for about 10 years and the single most important thing I've learned is that no matter what happens in the markets or the worlds events, the 2 don't always match up. Companies/countries/funds can deliver a fantastic set of results and their share price falls. And vice versa. Work that out. As for where to put your dosh, it's not for the faint hearted at the moment but fortune favours the brave. Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 Clive has given a lot of good information on the ways and means of holding gold. However, I would still state that unless you are a serious player it is probably not the most important thing in your life. Big Funds and rich people may have holdings and buy and sell to suit their needs. Unfortunately the average ‘joe’ will probably always be 2 steps behind them and buy and sell at the wrong times. Some may suggest using a Fund Manager to act more effectively but again even here the vast majority of Fund Managers are usually also behind the ball and often merely ‘track’ a market indice, plus of course charging you heavily for the priviledge. Any good Fund manager can often be ‘poached’ by another Company and then that particular Fund sees a downside if you are not careful. As Clive mentions buying coins such as Krugerands is one way to actually hold your own gold. But at around $1800 per ounce or whatever you would need to buy at less than $1000 to actually see a significant profit now, unless again you are in the big league. 100 ounces is valued at $180000, a sum I regret I do not have in my back pocket. Buy 100 ounces at £1000/oz and sell now and you have made $80000, nice work if you can do it. Buy 10 ounces similarly and you have made $8000, again nice work but then take off the buying and selling costs. Maybe not quite so attractive, plus you have to pay someone to store them safely for you, or keep them hidden under the bed and hope. Also did you have $100k to buy when it was cheaper. G Brown sold our gold reserves around 2000 for just over $250 per ounce. If you had bought then and sold now, you would be very healthy. But thta was 11 years ago and I did not foresee what we have today. Gold has also had big falls at times over the years. I am not decrying anyone wanting to do it, but only as part of a diverse portfolio of investments. As Lord Thornber also correctly states never invest money you might need quickly, and always play the long game unless you are a rich professional. I prefer to buy shares in Companies myself that are what I hope are long term stable Companies with good growth plans, and may also give a decent dividend, which is tax free to me. Over a long period (10 years) we have made a reasonable return, certainly better than bank interest rates. What does annoy me is that all too often my ‘good companies’ are bought by some rich b......d somewhere and although I get a hefty premium on the price I paid, it is then lost to me. Over the years we have ‘lost’ Biffa, Cadburys, Hilton, ICI, BOC and others. Of course we have also bought ‘dogs’ such as RBS and HBOS so not immune to failure, so if I met Fred Goodwin in the street.......................Grhhh!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted August 14, 2011 Share Posted August 14, 2011 "........so if I met Fred Goodwin in the street................" You'd congratulate him for the decade of year-on-year massive growth, massive profits and massive dividends that he masterminded for you to receive as a part-owner. You were more than happy to take the dividend return on those profits - much of them generated via very very high leveraged LTV loans in the UK and USA.....with the potential for high returns comes high risk. He got you far more, for far longer, than commons sense would have indicated. You just didn't sell your holding quickly enough when the high-risks of the business you'd (I assume) stayed invested in all through those ridiculously good-return years finally went over the cliff - not because of Goodwin incidentally, but because of the implosion of GOVERNMENT borrowings across the USA and Western Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted August 14, 2011 Author Share Posted August 14, 2011 Would it be ok for me to hijack this thread for a short while and ask what people think the price of Gold is going to do over the next year Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 CliveH - 2011-08-14 8:35 AM Our rating is still AAA - Greece in marked contrast had its rating reduced yet further end of July from CCC to CC. - And yet this country is part of the Euro!!!! - How can this be? Because this country does not have the Euro. As I understand it most of Britains debt is denominated in pounds They won't be worth much, but the Government will never run out of them because they can always print more. I wish I had kept my savings in Greek currency instead of British currency. They would be worth a lot more now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Syd - 2011-08-14 7:58 AM The serious question is will Gold continue to rise, there are "experts" out there saying that it could go as high as 2500 dollars per oz and "speculators" saying five and six thousand dollars per oz. Really could do with a few more credit ratings being lowered. We had 'Experts' advising Gordon Brown to sell at $250 George Soros was advising people to sell at $1,000, but I don't know if he was buying I sold at $1,500, which was still too early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 BGD is partly correct. Yes, RBS did make a lot of profits over the years, and of course paid a large chunk in Corporation Tax, which enabled G Brown to go on a splurge. However, although the Government was indeed involved, it had no say in any decision to buy ABN/AMRO and Mr Goodwin sold a rights issue based on some very dodgy numbers, even although they had been signed off by accountants. That is still subject to a legal challenge. Plus the point made would mean all banks would have failed, but they did not. Fred's greed to beat Barclays at any cost, cost us all dearly in the end. Of course he was supported by a Board who must also share some liability Mind you he still lives in this fair city but is a pariah to all the citizens so like Midas, he can sit at home counting his gold. My main reason in investing in banks way back at the end of the last century was the same as many, looking for a safe haven for my money. As I told my wife way back then 'the banks cannot fail or the country fails'. Just shows how wrong one can be at times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 The failed banks didn't really make big profits. They just over valued their assets to make it look as though they had (to justify the bosses pay) (The valuation they put on ABS Amro was ludicrous, and they never made sufficient provision for bad debts) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Another good day to fill your boots, a nice collective dip in the globals so to speak... Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 Peter James - 2011-08-18 4:02 PM The failed banks didn't really make big profits. They just over valued their assets to make it look as though they had (to justify the bosses pay) (The valuation they put on ABS Amro was ludicrous, and they never made sufficient provision for bad debts) What??? Sorry Peter, that simply is not true. The since-failed banks such as RBS made ENORMOUS profits, year after year after year throughout the boom years. Just go back and look at the trading accounts of RBS. They also DID NOT over-value their assets - in all big Companies it is independent, external Auditors who value a Companies assets. Additionally, the Asset Register is a Balance Sheet items, NOT a Profit-and-Loss Accounts item....if any assets are overvalued by the Auditors, then the effect is increase the Capital Employed in the business with which the trading profits were generated; which thus would act to REDUCE the ROCE (Return on Capital Employed) of the business....and it is invariably ROCE which in the main drives any Director Bonus computations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 BGD - 2011-08-18 6:48 PM Peter James - 2011-08-18 4:02 PM The failed banks didn't really make big profits. They just over valued their assets to make it look as though they had (to justify the bosses pay) (The valuation they put on ABS Amro was ludicrous, and they never made sufficient provision for bad debts) What??? Sorry Peter, that simply is not true. The since-failed banks such as RBS made ENORMOUS profits, year after year after year throughout the boom years. Just go back and look at the trading accounts of RBS. They also DID NOT over-value their assets - in all big Companies it is independent, external Auditors who value a Companies assets. Additionally, the Asset Register is a Balance Sheet items, NOT a Profit-and-Loss Accounts item....if any assets are overvalued by the Auditors, then the effect is increase the Capital Employed in the business with which the trading profits were generated; which thus would act to REDUCE the ROCE (Return on Capital Employed) of the business....and it is invariably ROCE which in the main drives any Director Bonus computations. and who pays these independant auditors and independant ratings agencies who got it so wrong *-) Some of these Banks (and Councils) still had Icelandic Bank debt on the books at face value when it was trading at 1/2p in the pound *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted August 18, 2011 Share Posted August 18, 2011 I've invested in Pouffes:D............. At least it means we can put our feet up when we retire(lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted August 19, 2011 Author Share Posted August 19, 2011 Peter James - 2011-08-18 2:32 PM Syd - 2011-08-14 7:58 AM The serious question is will Gold continue to rise, there are "experts" out there saying that it could go as high as 2500 dollars per oz and "speculators" saying five and six thousand dollars per oz. Really could do with a few more credit ratings being lowered. We had 'Experts' advising Gordon Brown to sell at $250 George Soros was advising people to sell at $1,000, but I don't know if he was buying I sold at $1,500, which was still too early. Hi Peter I'm still holding on to ours but beginning to watch it rather carefully now. What do you think will happen to the price, I personally think it will go higher yet but not too sure by how much or for how much longer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 pelmetman - 2011-08-18 9:11 PMI've invested in Pouffes:D.............At least it means we can put our feet up when we retire(lol)Dave,Rather than gold I am into lead, I stripped the lead flashing off next doors roof, made a tidy profit down at the local scrapyard (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted August 19, 2011 Share Posted August 19, 2011 Syd - 2011-08-19 12:18 AM Hi Peter I'm still holding on to ours but beginning to watch it rather carefully now. What do you think will happen to the price, I personally think it will go higher yet but not too sure by how much or for how much longer Wish I knew. Clearly its hugely over valued in real terms because its intrinsically worth very little - it doesn't produce an income. (apart from a very small amount currently being used in electronics) Bit like the dot com bubble I also missed out on. I could see dot com shares were ludicrously over valued, but I never dreamt they would go so high before they popped. I missed out on the rise because I had none Then when Marconi fell from £14 to 20p I bought in because I felt Marconi was worth more, and I was right. I never envisaged the banks would be allowed to change the rules and evade a shareholder vote to steal the company from them like they did. That has never been allowed to happen before. It was only then I realised the banks are a law unto themselves. Banks claimed Marconi was worthless, and gave we shareholders a derisory 0.5% of the equity, taking 99.5% for themselves, in return for writing off the debts. Blair changed the rules to allow them to do this without a shareholder vote (and, surprise surprise, has since been given a very lucrative job at a Merchant bank). Then, surprise surprise again, Marconi turned out to be worth far more than the banks said it was. But we shareholders had already been shafted. So, no use taking investment advice from me *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted August 20, 2011 Author Share Posted August 20, 2011 Thanks for that Peter We bought our's against all the prevailing advice and are quiet happy with the results. All investing seems to be a gut feeling thing and we think it will go higher so we carefully hang on. Have not done any share transactions yet but we are beginning to look at them Syd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted August 20, 2011 Share Posted August 20, 2011 Syd - 2011-08-20 12:51 AM Have not done any share transactions yet but we are beginning to look at them Syd I would think of that like going to a Casino. The house comprises the commision takers like the LSE, market makers and brokers. Sometimes a punter wins, but the house always wins. Much depends on what the politicians do. House prices and therefore banks are kept afloat because they are throwing our money at them. I lost out on Marconi because Blair moved the goalposts. If you know, or can influence, what the politicians are going to do, then you can predict where prices will go. So the big investors hire politicians like Blair, and Fergie can tout Prince Andrew for £500k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Peter James - 2011-08-18 2:26 PM CliveH - 2011-08-14 8:35 AM Our rating is still AAA - Greece in marked contrast had its rating reduced yet further end of July from CCC to CC. - And yet this country is part of the Euro!!!! - How can this be? Because this country does not have the Euro. As I understand it most of Britain’s debt is denominated in pounds They won't be worth much, but the Government will never run out of them because they can always print more. I wish I had kept my savings in Greek currency instead of British currency. They would be worth a lot more now. Apologies 8-) - my grammar is bad - what I meant to say is:- "Our (i.e. the UK) rating is still AAA - Greece in marked contrast had its rating reduced yet further end of July from CCC to CC. - And yet this country (by which I meant Greece) is part of the Euro!!!! - How can this be?" My point being that how crazy it is that Greece - essentially bankrupt - is locked into a currency used by the likes of Germany. It will not take too many months of poor growth that Germany has just experienced (partly because of the HUGE sums of money it has paid out to Greece) for the German people to say enough is enough - even if Merkal continues to keep her head somewhere warm and dark. It cannot go on. Greece will require another bailout in a few months time. Merkel and Sarkozy's answer? - tax every financial transaction in the EU to raise the money required. That means that as the UK conducts about 70% of all financial activity in the Eurozone then we will end up paying to bail out Greece so it can be propped up in a currency we are not even part of!!! http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/business-news/sarkozymerkel-trading-levy-plan-is-branded-disastrous-for-britain-16037986.html Oh! and in case anyone wondered - Gold price is declining a tad:- http://goldprice.org/gold-price-per-gram.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.