refillable gas bottles

[john y]

Are there allternatives to gaslow for refillable gas bottles, they do seem expensive. Also how do they differ from calor cylinders, i understand that calor can,t be refilled ,but can someone tell me why?

[lennyhb]

Stako are probably the best known alternative to Gaslow they are made in Poland and sold widely in mainland Europe not quite so common in the UK. They have the advantage of having accurate float level gauges which work over the full capacity of the cylinder, I have been very pleased with mine. There are also the aluminium ones marketed as Alugas I'm not sure who makes them.

 

Two reasons you can not refill Calor bottles firstly they are not yours you only lease them from Calor & it is against the agreement. Secondly it is dangerous as there is no 80% cut off valve in them, cylinders must only be filled to a max of 80% to allow for expansion.

[pepe63xnotuse]

John..

...slightly off your main point but if you've the room and depending on your usage(..assuming that you use the usual 6kg cylinders now),it may be worth just looking switching to a 13kg "Calor" bottle,as they work out a about half the price...

 

..and I think when I last exchanged our's,it was only a few quid dearer than if we had've been filling refillable bottle... ;-)

[lennyhb]

It's not about cost it's convenience & saving the old back. Price wise it is about 60% cheaper than a 6kg refill & 35% cheaper than a 13kg refill.

 

Once you have had a re-fillable system you will never go back to exchange bottles.

 

Also if you have re-fillable bottles as opposed to a tank you can transfer them to your next van they have a life of 15 years before they need refurbishing.

 

Do a search there are loads of threads with info on the pros & cons of refillable's on the forum.

[rupert123]

john y - 2011-08-31 11:05 PM

 

Are there allternatives to gaslow for refillable gas bottles, they do seem expensive. Also how do they differ from calor cylinders, i understand that calor can,t be refilled ,but can someone tell me why?

 

Their are alternatives but no price savings with them, you can save a little weight if this is a concern. Gaslow are as good as any and the arguments about contents gauges do not matter much if you have two bottles, when one runs out just get a refill. Get them, you will never regret it, we have had our current set moved between three vans now, the dealer we purchase van from has always done it FOC as part of the deal.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Oh yeah,I agree that it's not all about cost Lenny..but surely usage must come into it...

 

Our 15kg will last us well over a year(..and probably,a fair chunk of next,as well..),however if we were one of those who were in a position to tour europe for months at a time,then we'd be looking at a refillable system..

[Derek Uzzell]

Alternative (to Gaslow and STAKO bottles) user-refillable LPG containers available in the UK are the "Alugas" and "Safefill" type. Some related links are:

 

http://www.autogas.co.uk/alugas-cylinders.htm

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/cubecart/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=2

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/

 

With a suitable adapter, it's perfectly possible to user-refill a Calor propane canister (or any other bottle that uses the traditional UK-standard propane outlet) with autogas, but this practice is prohibited by the terms and conditions of Calor's bottle-hire contract (and by other bottle-hire suppliers' contracts), and (probably) by all autogas suppliers too. Basically, you CAN refill a Calor propane bottle, but you SHOULD NOT.

 

The primary difference between a gas container that is designed to be user-refillable and one that is not, is that the former has a cut-off valve that prevents over-filling.

 

[starvin marvin]

john y - 2011-08-31 11:05 PM

 

Are there allternatives to gaslow for refillable gas bottles, they do seem expensive. Also how do they differ from calor cylinders, i understand that calor can,t be refilled ,but can someone tell me why?

 

The advice given so far may not fit your style of camping. If you travel away to say Spain for long periods, relying on finding refilling stations can be a problem. If you travel to Portugal or eastern europe you can get calor or any other cylinders refilled.

 

My decision was based on not putting all my eggs in one basket, I have a gaslow and a spanish exchange bottle, works a treat.

[lennyhb]

pepe63 - 2011-09-01 10:12 AM

 

Oh yeah,I agree that it's not all about cost Lenny..but surely usage must come into it...

 

Our 15kg will last us well over a year(..and probably,a fair chunk of next,as well..),however if we were one of those who were in a position to tour europe for months at a time,then we'd be looking at a refillable system..

 

You don't use much gas then or don't use the van much.:-D

 

We only do 50- 60 nights a year in the van at the moment and probably use around 90 Litres (approx 50kg) of gas a year. 20 Litres (approx 11kg) lasts us about 20 days in the summer only 4-5 days in the winter.

[Tony Jones]

It's a big outlay, and I'm not sure we'd have bought the system as "aftermarket" (we specified it on our van from new). But I'm really glad we did. The gas itself is much cheaper than any exchange system, and (as has been said) much less work since there's no humping about of bottles.

Also, in a van with only room for one bottle (although we do squeeze in a tiny Campingaz 901 as emergency backup!), we don't have to waste gas by exchanging when there's still some left!

I've only used the 901 once in over 3 years, as the bottle lasts us for over a week of full-time living (cooking every day, both showering every day), and we've very rarely had trouble finding refill stations around Europe.

[bolero boy]

lennyhb - 2011-09-01 11:29 AM

pepe63 - 2011-09-01 10:12 AM Oh yeah,I agree that it's not all about cost Lenny..but surely usage must come into it... Our 15kg will last us well over a year(..and probably,a fair chunk of next,as well..),however if we were one of those who were in a position to tour europe for months at a time,then we'd be looking at a refillable system..

You don't use much gas then or don't use the van much.:-D We only do 50- 60 nights a year in the van at the moment and probably use around 90 Litres (approx 50kg) of gas a year. 20 Litres (approx 11kg) lasts us about 20 days in the summer only 4-5 days in the winter.

But Lenny, you tend to rely on your own power, don't you, as you're not a 'hook-up' guy..............??

For someone who uses EHU for heating and/or some cooking usage of their own gas will be much lower than yours. We don't use an enormous amount of gas and, as yet, have not switched to refillable. This will come, I'm sure. We will be sounding out Spain for a couple of months in the New Year and will try to get a Repsol bottle to exchange as LPG stations are fewer than in France. I agree with an above post that a single refillable alongside a Spanish exchange bottle may well be the best solution to Europe wide touring.  

[pepe63xnotuse]

Well,we do use the van a fair bit.. :-S

Last year we had around 25, "2 night" weekends,4-5 long weekends,off ehu and a couple of full weeks off ehu (at festivals).

Admittedly,the "ordinary" weekends were on sites(ehu,shower block etc)..and we do tend to bbq/cook outside when ever possible...

 

An underslung refillable tank,would certainly free up some locker space though(..but having said that,for us(..at the moment)it'd be an expensive way of just making room for more tat,I don't need to lug about anyway..!? :D )

[lennyhb]

bolero boy - 2011-09-01 6:14 PM

 

But Lenny, you tend to rely on your own power, don't you, as you're not a 'hook-up' guy..............??

 

Yep sure do, can't see the point of paying for something I don't need & LPG works out cheaper than a hook up.

[bolero boy]

Apart from some CS/CL sites which we have stayed on (many of them lovely, incidently) almost all of the rest have included EHU as part of the pitch price. To use gas in this case would not be sensible for us.

I take your point about cost of gas and if Spain weren't on the holiday horizon i would probably have Gaslow installed by now as we love France where LPG is prevalent. Have you visited Spain and, if so, have you had any difficulty with finding pumped LPG?

Similarly, how have you found access to LPG in the UK? I can't say that I've fallen over the LPG pump at most service stations we've visited in the 8,000 miles we've done since we got the van last May.

Does your van have electric heating and hot water? Many Continental vans don't include this as standard (even when for sale in the UK) and I wondered if this influenced your use of gas?

In trying to weigh up the 'convenience' benefit of Gaslow (I have no problem lifting/fitting our current bottles) I feel that some of this is lost if you can't pull up to any old service station and fill LPG and diesel on the same visit.

I realise that France is fine in this respect but I am still to be convinced about spain and, for that matter, the UK.

[lennyhb]

Your are right I only have gas only water heating & heating I did consider the electric option but at 600€ not economic even if I was to stay on a site with EHU, I don't do much camping this side of the channel over there EHU is always an option your choice, but then over there I rarely use sites . In this country some CL's are getting silly charging £15 & no reduction for no electric, defeats the idea of a CL, I'll stick to £4-£5 a night field with a water tap thanks.

 

Never had a problem finding LPG in the UK at least 4 filling stations within 25 miles of home have it most of the larger BP & Shell stations have it. Nearly all motorway service stations have it even found one on the M6 where it was 5p a litre cheaper than elsewhere.

I always fill up in the UK even though it's a bit dearer, because it's 100% propane all year round, I shall top up tomorrow at the BP station at Dover before getting on the ferry.

[bolero boy]

Thanks Lenny, have you been to Spain and, if so, what were your experiences re finding LPG there?

[lennyhb]

Hi Chris, not done Spain since we have had the Motorhome but from other threads it's been said Repsol are expanding their network of LPG filling points, do a search you should come up with some info.

 

[bolero boy]

Thanks again, Lenny. Had a look on Repsol's site and there about 40 outlets in Spain with about 12 on the coast, not a lot yet in such a large country. I guess it really needs to pick up a supermarket/fuel stations like Le Clerc or Intermarche in France. Our 'recce' early next year will give us some practical insight for a possible full 'winter' the year after.

[Rio]

I,ve recently changed from calor butane, to a gaslow system, it was a costly change, but after struggling with very heavy gas cylinders for years, in tight gas lockers,(and not getting any younger), it was a joy just to plug it in at the filling station and hey presto it was full again, and was well less than half the price of changing an empty bottle for a full one.Its not always down to cost,

After using this system I will never go back to struggling with heavy cylinders again.

[Brian Kirby]

bolero boy - 2011-09-02 9:33 AM

Apart from some CS/CL sites which we have stayed on (many of them lovely, incidently) almost all of the rest have included EHU as part of the pitch price. To use gas in this case would not be sensible for us.

I take your point about cost of gas and if Spain weren't on the holiday horizon i would probably have Gaslow installed by now as we love France where LPG is prevalent. Have you visited Spain and, if so, have you had any difficulty with finding pumped LPG?

Similarly, how have you found access to LPG in the UK? I can't say that I've fallen over the LPG pump at most service stations we've visited in the 8,000 miles we've done since we got the van last May.

Does your van have electric heating and hot water? Many Continental vans don't include this as standard (even when for sale in the UK) and I wondered if this influenced your use of gas?

In trying to weigh up the 'convenience' benefit of Gaslow (I have no problem lifting/fitting our current bottles) I feel that some of this is lost if you can't pull up to any old service station and fill LPG and diesel on the same visit.

I realise that France is fine in this respect but I am still to be convinced about spain and, for that matter, the UK.

ChrisI think you will have to plan this trip very carefully. If your van is as the current spec, the ex-works payload is only 415kg, and the gas locker takes only two 7Kg Calor type cylinders. You are proposing to travel in winter, when it is cold, and daylight short, and will be likely to need the heating at least evenings and mornings. You will find many continental sites restrict electricity supply to 5A (say 1200W) - some less - so, I would suggest you will struggle to run fridge, lights, heating, and cook, within that allowance. This will inevitably increase your gas consumption.Your next problem will be that, so far as I am aware, no-one else in Europe makes/uses 7kg cylinders. Being winter, you will be better off with propane than with butane, which may fail to gas-off if cold. What is available in France is generally either 13kg, which are too big for your locker and are much heavier (payload!), or 5kg butane/6kg propane. All of these are larger in width than the Calor (256mm dia x 495mm tall) cylinders. Nearest is the Butagaz Le Cube at 282 mm wide x 502mm tall (widely available at supermarkets), one of which may fit alongside a 7kg Calor, and possibly, if the locker is generously sized, two could be installed together. They are, however, lighter than the Calor cylinders. However, you are now down to 12kg gas in lieu of 14kg. I truth, I don't think either would prove reliably adequate for two months in winter. Repsol do a 6kg propane cylinder, but I can't find any dimensions for it. However, superficially, it appears "fat", so may limit you to just one cylinder at a time.Even if you were to install the Gaslow refillables, you will still be limited to 12kg gas (2 x 6kg refillables). This will still require you to go on periodic, and if cold possibly frequent, "autogas hunts". I think I would be inclined, at this point, to investigate having a bulk tank fitted instead of refillable cylinders. This is the only way, IMO, that you can increase your gas reserves to a level realistic for winter use - even in southern Europe. My main reason for saying this is that winters, even in southern Europe, can be very cold from time to time, and your route to southern Europe will be very likely to be cold because it will start in northern Europe - where it will almost certainly be cold! So, traipsing around looking for gas at frequent intervals, and trying to find cylinders that will fit your locker, may be enough of a pain to take the gilt off your holiday gingerbread! :-)Your main alternative would be to travel with a spare cylinder or two, but that will just eat payload. You'd probably never get back the initial capital cost of bulk or refillable from the cost difference between autogas and exchange cylinder gas - even more true for a bulk tank than for refillables. However, if you are happy to dispense with using campsites, and to use the generally cheaper aires and their equivalent, using your on-board facilities to the full and adopting an all-gas approach to space and water heating, cooking and for the fridge, you will approach break-even a lot faster. In the end, it is down to capital cost versus convenience, and only you can judge where the border lies. Good luck.

[Guest pelmetman]

lennyhb - 2011-09-01 8:08 PM Yep sure do, can't see the point of paying for something I don't need & LPG works out cheaper than a hook up.

You have set of my thrift detector Lenny:D.............and got my brain cell working overtime8-).......has anyone done the maffs re pay back time if you install solar power?

[aultymer]

Solar is good for keeping the lights on but I have yet to see a solar powered system that can supply heat or cooking power.

[bolero boy]

Brian Kirby - 2011-09-03 4:10 PM

Chris I think you will have to plan this trip very carefully. If your van is as the current spec, the ex-works payload is only 415kg, and the gas locker takes only two 7Kg Calor type cylinders. You are proposing to travel in winter, when it is cold, and daylight short, and will be likely to need the heating at least evenings and mornings. You will find many continental sites restrict electricity supply to 5A (say 1200W) - some less - so, I would suggest you will struggle to run fridge, lights, heating, and cook, within that allowance. This will inevitably increase your gas consumption. Your next problem will be that, so far as I am aware, no-one else in Europe makes/uses 7kg cylinders. Being winter, you will be better off with propane than with butane, which may fail to gas-off if cold. What is available in France is generally either 13kg, which are too big for your locker and are much heavier (payload!), or 5kg butane/6kg propane. All of these are larger in width than the Calor (256mm dia x 495mm tall) cylinders. Nearest is the Butagaz Le Cube at 282 mm wide x 502mm tall (widely available at supermarkets), one of which may fit alongside a 7kg Calor, and possibly, if the locker is generously sized, two could be installed together. They are, however, lighter than the Calor cylinders. However, you are now down to 12kg gas in lieu of 14kg. I truth, I don't think either would prove reliably adequate for two months in winter. Repsol do a 6kg propane cylinder, but I can't find any dimensions for it. However, superficially, it appears "fat", so may limit you to just one cylinder at a time. Even if you were to install the Gaslow refillables, you will still be limited to 12kg gas (2 x 6kg refillables). This will still require you to go on periodic, and if cold possibly frequent, "autogas hunts". I think I would be inclined, at this point, to investigate having a bulk tank fitted instead of refillable cylinders. This is the only way, IMO, that you can increase your gas reserves to a level realistic for winter use - even in southern Europe. My main reason for saying this is that winters, even in southern Europe, can be very cold from time to time, and your route to southern Europe will be very likely to be cold because it will start in northern Europe - where it will almost certainly be cold! So, traipsing around looking for gas at frequent intervals, and trying to find cylinders that will fit your locker, may be enough of a pain to take the gilt off your holiday gingerbread! :-) Your main alternative would be to travel with a spare cylinder or two, but that will just eat payload. You'd probably never get back the initial capital cost of bulk or refillable from the cost difference between autogas and exchange cylinder gas - even more true for a bulk tank than for refillables. However, if you are happy to dispense with using campsites, and to use the generally cheaper aires and their equivalent, using your on-board facilities to the full and adopting an all-gas approach to space and water heating, cooking and for the fridge, you will approach break-even a lot faster. In the end, it is down to capital cost versus convenience, and only you can judge where the border lies. Good luck.

Brian, thanks very much for your considered response. It's always useful to gain from the experience of others on this forum.

I was (rightly) concerned about our ability to carry sufficient gas having realised that I may not be able to rely on enough 'amps' at campsites to run heating etc on electricity. This was why I was posing the questions specifically about Spain. I was confident of being able to manage with refillables in France but with the hope of trying a break in Spain I needed to know if gas fill points were widely available.

From my own cursory look at the Repsol site, and your response, I feel that topping up might be a struggle hence my thinking about a Spanish exchange bottle which seems to have been used successfully by some posters. If I did install a refillable system this would need a good local(ish) supply of LPG points or sufficient bulk to make refills less often. Any change to the van would be for convenience rather than cost as Spain, particularly, seems to be a different animal re gas.

With better days, but colder nights, Spain is the default choice in avoiding British winters, yet poor supply of 'mains' gas is definitely an issue.

Incidently, we have weighed the van in full running trim (driver, passenger, water, fuel, gas, incl bikes etc) and we had a good reserve.

Thanks again for your input, most appreciated.

Right then, Guys......................how do all you motorhomers manage to 'Winter in Spain' with poor availability of LPG pumps and the certainty of quickly using all the gas you can carry??

As i said earlier, my thought was 'when in Rome (Malaga?) do as the Romans do' and go for a locally swappable bottle and one refillable for everywhere else.  

[Derek Uzzell]

bolero boy - 2011-09-03 10:17 PMRight then, Guys......................how do all you motorhomers manage to 'Winter in Spain' with poor availability of LPG pumps and the certainty of quickly using all the gas you can carry??

As i said earlier, my thought was 'when in Rome (Malaga?) do as the Romans do' and go for a locally swappable bottle and one refillable for everywhere else.  

It's surely a question of what you plan to do?I met one UK couple who had spent the winter in Spain in a tiny rising-roof camper from which the air-heater had been removed to save storage space. And another UK couple, in a large motorhome, had relied on Campingaz bottles (which, admittedly, was when Campingaz refills were very cheaply bought in Spain).If you stayed on a single campsite throughout the winter and (as it might be reasonable to expect for an open-all-year campsite) there was a healthy mains electricity supply, gas usage would be minimal. And, even if you envisaged a need to use a fair amount of gas on the campsite, you wouldn't necessarily have to carry it with you, as it's simple enough to plumb into the motorhome's gas system the facility to use an external, locally-sourced bottle.Obviously, as Brian says, if you want to maximise your options gas-wise, then fit a massive external LPG tank (or tanks) that would rarely (never?) need topping-up during your winter trip.

[Brian Kirby]

bolero boy - 2011-09-03 10:17 PM..................................From my own cursory look at the Repsol site, and your response, I feel that topping up might be a struggle hence my thinking about a Spanish exchange bottle which seems to have been used successfully by some posters. .............................

 

Given good weather, and using a good electrical supply you may, as Derek implies, get by. As he also says, so much depends on what you do, and where you go. Given a cold winter, you may find things less agreeable. It all depends on your attitude to risk, and to the consequences (mainly nuisance), if it

is cold, of having guessed wrong!

 

My guess, and it is no more than that, is that those who get/have Spanish cylinders, have the larger Repsol cylinders (around 11kg if I remember) that will not fit your gas locker. It is just unfortunate that Swift install mickey-mouse gas lockers aimed at a cylinder size unobtainable outside the UK.

 

An alternative might be to sniff out the locations of the various illicit re-fillers some claim to have used. Not sure about Spain, where the gas regs are fairly strict, but I believe there are a number in Portugal, around the Algarve.

 

Maybe research sites with higher amperages available in winter?