Towing a small car - advice sought!

[caradoc]

Well, we survived our first ever motorhome experience in our Ravenna and were completely smitten.....travelled nearly 700 miles from the Midlands to Cornwall and loved the motorhome - effortless on the motorways, managed the Cornish narrow windy roads well, but sadly could not do battle against the hostile-to-motorhome towns. My partner has a blue badge due to mobility issues, so we were able to use a yellow line here and there, but were astonished at the hostility of the town councils to motorhomes, especially in counties dependant on tourists for their survival! Found a friendly pub car park in Perranporth for £3 a day parking fee (The Green Parrot for those setting out to that side of Cornwall), and a helpful attendant who helped site us. The Ravenna doesn't take up much more space than my Range Rover, actually, it's the height that makes it seem so much bigger!!! So, we decided it would be sensible to tow a small car with us to most places where we were going to spend more than just a weekend. I'm happy to tow trailers, have done so for many years, and have a B plus E entitlement on my licence as it was sadly not properly converted when we exchanged our South African licences for British ones years ago which should have given the same C entitlement as all other pre-1997 licences do, but the DVLA is unlikely to revisit its mistake after so long and we didn't realise at the time. Still, other than limiting us to the size of motorhome outfit we chooose, I don't believe it to be necessary to obtain a further licence. Now - the legislation seems very unclear and woolly - no-one wants to say much about what seems to be a dark secret, and I am rather confused at which cars would be suitable. Seems a Smart car with purpose built trailer is suitable, but before we take the plunge, I was wondering what else may be adequate, pleasant to drive and possibly less expensive than a smart car....... I gather that A frames are dubious and not strictly legal, particularly not in Europe, so am happy not to even consider one. A trailer it is then. The van is a 3500kg gross mass, and I gather the maximum allowed mass when towing is around the 5000kg -5500kg (will check VIN plate tomorrow)mark, so that appears to leave 1500 or 2000kg for the car/trailer combination. Please advise - anxious to get a car sorted before our long trip in July.

[Yorkshire Tyke]

Hi Caradoc Glad you liked your first trip out and wish you many more The subject of "A" frames is too complex to go into here (for a more detailed discussion - with a sensible outcome - go to www.motorhometoday.co.uk you have to join but it is free) Basicly it is illegal: but no one has taken it to court in this country to set a precedent "A" frames are only legal as recovery tools Abroad is different It IS ilegal in Spain at least; There they wil; stop you and fine you €100 (£65ish) on the spot; you dont move until you have paid up AND unhitched. You would require a braked trailer (unless you could find a car = trailer combination which weighed under 750KG) Dont know you r age or licence details but check both license and insurance ti see that you are covered,, if over 70 you would require to take the medical to tow a trailer

[bjphillips]

I intend to buy a small car soon for the same reason,having looked at quite a few.I did email the Express for their opinion on the motoring section to which they replied last week.Their reply confirmed my own thoughts,the Peugeot 106 & 107 seemed to the best quality & the fastest,also a bit more expensive than others.The Fiat panda & the Kia picanto were the cheaper & less expensive to run.I believe the Citroen is the one with a deisel engine.Susuki looked a nice little car but a bit sparse on the interior trim.I've yet to look at a Seat.The weight of all including a suitable trailer would come within the MTW of our vehicles as mine is the same as yours.The advantage over the Smart car is that there's 4 seats and they are all available in 4 door,I find it a bit of a pain having to get out to let someone in or outof the back. *-) The Vauxhall Agila does have a bit more headroom if you're a bit on the tall side.

[david lloyd]

Hi caradoc The place to look to check your licence entitlement (re: trailers) is www.dvla.gov.uk As far as I know pre-1st jan 1997 licence holders were not given C entitlement - this is vehicles over 3500kg and includes (rigid) large goods vehicles - but were given C1 which is entitlement to drive vehicles with a MAM between 3500kg and 7500kg. I don't entirely agree with YT's comments re A-frames. I do happen to use one and believe that, at this time, my particular unit (and they are not all the same) complies with all the legislation pertaining to trailer construction and use, my licence entitlement and my insurance. Once satisfied, I chose to do so instead of a trailer and car combination because of the simplicity and convenience it offered. Under EU law any vehicle that is temporarily imported into another EU country is legal providing it complies with the construction and use laws in the country in which it is registered. I have many friends who have towed cars on A-frames across europe, including Spain, and have not been stopped, some who have been stopped and, after examining their documents, allowed to continue. None who have had to unhitch before driving on. I also have copies of correspondence regarding a case in Spain that did receive a fixed penalty but which was then rescinded on appeal when the man concerned returned to the UK. With regard to towing a car you need to make up your own mind as to whether you think it is legal or not after researching all the available information on towing with A-frames. If choosing the car/trailer option you will not only need to ensure that the combination you choose is within your licence entitlement (that the MAM does not exceed what you are entitled to drive) but also watch the noseweight of the combination (the downforce exerted on the towball) and also that the weight does not take you over your rear axle loading weight. Either way, you will find undoubted benefits from having a small car with you (although we don't always take ours) and good luck with the hunt. Regards, david

[Clive]

Hi Laurie, Interesting topic I agree. Likewise I have a blue badge so find parking not so much of a problem. The badge is worth its weight in gold! A frames. As you can see several schools of thought. Its almost certain that the overall weight of the A frame and car will be over 750kg so brakes are required. I have listened to the various manufacturers arguements about the amount of braking required on the towed vehicle but remain unconvinced. Unless you have a car that does NOT have servo brakes then the amount of braking effort a bowden cable attached between the brake pedal and the overrun mechanism must be minimal. Also forget Smart cars and A frames as they rely on the engine running to maintain adequate lubrication of the drive train that will be moving when the vehicle is towed. Having said all of this my personal preferance from an engineering and convienience viewpoint is the A frame. If you tow a car carried on a braked trailer then no question about braking levels or the law. Just check your vehicle MAM and your driving license. But when you arrive at wherever you are going you have a trailer to loose somewhere as well as a car. For us the compromise and it is a very enjoyable one is not a car but two light weight monkey bikes. Mine is a bit bigger than that for the Mrs as I am also a bigger person. Originally we carried these on a rack on the back of the motorhome, that is until Mel Eastburn's article on "It aint heavy its my motorhome" was published, my wife read it and insisted we weigh the beast. Now we have a small home made trailer!! This nearly doubles the ferry cost. Many people carry a scooter that will carry two people for auxilliary transport but my wife has learnt its safer not to ride behind me on the pillion plus she enjoys the independance of her own wheels. So there you are. If we had to go to a car it would be an A frame until someone gets prosecuted in court then I would reconsider it. What car? Hopefully the wife,s little Agila if the time comes. A frames have already been fitted to these by one of the main A frame makers. Enjoy C.

[caradoc]

Many thanks for the thoughts and advice - I remain rather confused as to the licence entitlement, despite having checked the DVLA website, I am no further enlightened! I'm under 70 for a while (a good few years!) yet, despite having obtained licence many moons ago, I have B plus E entitlement instead of C1. (Mixup with conversion at DVLA and too late to complain to them about it!) Would a vehicle such as the Peugeot 106 or Kia Picanto on a braked trailer be fully legal for me to tow on B plus E entitlement given that the combined weights fall within the towing limits of the Ravenna on its Transit chassis? I have decided not to go with the A frame although it seems simple and appealing, so a trailer it is. Motor cycles or mopeds are out as partner will not cope with either, so it needs to be a little car. Its just the licence entitlement that leaves me puzzled. Regards

[caradoc]

I think I have finally found sufficient info on the DVLA website to reassure me - category B plus E licence entitlement allows a trailer / vehicle combo that does not fall within the B category and its weight ratio limits, and there is no weight ratio limit, so it seems as if I just need to stay within the towing weight capacity of the Transit which is around 1500 - 2000kg. That doesn't seem a lot for a car and trailer though - are there several small cars in that category which would make the 1500- 2000kg limit together with the trailer?

[Yorkshire Tyke]

To David LLoyd I know what you are saying "You dont know of any one being stopped in Spain" Oue neighbour has towed a car on an "A" frame for years then he WAS stopped and; as I said made to unhitch and pay up - luckily his wife has a license and could take the car - other people have reported the same; ALL in the area between Barcelona and Bennidorm You assess the risk and takes your chance

[david lloyd]

Hi yorkshire tyke Sorry - I was saying that I DO know people who have been stopped BUT, fortunately, they have not been made to unhitch and have been allowed to continue on their way after their documents/vehicle have been checked - I'm pretty sure there is a different attitude amongst law enforcement officers across each country (including Britain) to applying the 'law' as they see it and the area around Barcelona/Benidorm seems to stand out for a variety of reasons - it seems, for instance, it is an area with a higher crime rate against tourists and one assumes that leads to a heavier police presence too. I haven't found the need to take our car over to Europe yet but I do carry copies of a letter translated into French/Spanish/Potugese and German explaining that the car is deemed to be a trailer due to the attached drawbar and referring specifically to the EU directive applicable to the temporary importation of a vehicle still being legal in that country. As I say, I have not had the need to test them out myself but some of my friends have used such letters when they were stopped and they proved adequate in convincing the police office of the 'legality' of the A-frame. No, you are absolutely right though in saying that everyone has to assess the risk and decide for themselves if they are comfortable with it. I too would urge caution to anyone considering the use of an A-frame and to make sure, before committing themselves, that the type they choose and its operating system complies with the relevant legislation. There are plenty of so-called A-frames out there that DO NOT comply and are definitely illegal for use other than for recovery purposes. Bets regards, david

[Rowan Lee]

I have a copy of a letter from a Mr. Alan Mendelson at the Department of Transport. I downloaded this from a link on another site, but unfortunately I cannot remember where. It seems to be genuine and comprehensive, running into two pages, but I quote what seems to be relevant: "When an A Frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome), we believe the A frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A frame are required to meet the technical requires for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. " etc. etc. "Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750 kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch." etc. etc. More paragraphs .... etc. etc. "From the above, I hope it is clear that we believe the use of A Frames to tow cars behind other vehicles is legal provided the braking and lighting requirements are met. However, while this is our understanding of the meaning of the Regulations, it is only the Courts which can reach a definitive interpretation of the law". For me personally, this is enough. We use an A frame to tow our Honda Jazz and it is absolutely ideal. We couldn't physically manage a trailer. Our insurer is also prepared to cover it. If we end up being the test case, well so be it. Good luck. PS If anyone wants the whole text with all the references, I will type it up when I have more time.

[bjphillips]

Further to my info on suitable cars to tow on a trailer I think you'll find that all of the ones I mentioned are between 875kg & 1100kg.I gather from one of the trailer manufacturers that a suitable trailer for the heaviest of these cars would weigh about 350kg. ;-)

[Stuart]

Re thread from Rowan Lee, I would be very interested to see full transcript of the letter he received. I have towed thousands of UK & Irish miles on an A frame and have spoken to several people in Spain who have taken cars out there on A frames without any problems, police or otherwise. Stuart

[Rowan Lee]

Ha, I've found it again. http://www.ukmotorhomes.net/a-frames.shtml This will give you the full text.

[Top Hat]

We have a Burstner 681 Mh and now tow a Daewoo Matiz on an A frame supplied by Towtal of Stoke. We have invested in the Brake Buddy system instaed of an overrun bowden cable to operate the brakes and find it A1! The Matiz is a smashing car - only 750kg but 800cc with 4 doors and very nippy but lightweight for towing. :-D

[caradoc]

I found a nice second user Carcaddy trailer specially built for a Smart car, so went ahead with it, although the Daewoo Matiz was very appealing. The smallest trailer possible - (it's only 8.5ft long) shouldn't be too much of a problem on campsites, and with some worries about A frames in Europe, it seemed a good option as I've never minded towing a trailer anyway. Plus the Smart car is semi-auto which is important for my partner. So now, we're looking for an appealing Smart car for its trailer...nearly organised, I can hardly believe it.......

[Mel E]

Oh Dear! The A-Frame Car towing question again!! I think my articles in MMM just over a year ago ('It Ain't Heavy - it's my motorhome') gave a reasonable unbiased view of the situation. In summary: 1. Basically the law that applies is the same throughout the EU. So why do we think A-frame towing is legal here and not in most other EU countries? The answer lies in the fundamentally different inerpretations of the law: - in English law you can basically do what you want unless the law spoeciafically says you cannot. The law does not specifically say you cannot tow a car on an A-frame, so it's OK to do it until a Court case says it is not. - in the Napoleonic Code on which the law in much of the rest of Europe is based (France, Spain, Germany, Italy, etc), it is illegal to do something unless the law expressly permits it. It does not expressly permit towing on an A-frame, so . . . Now it's made more complex by the EU provision that, if your vehicle is legal in your own country, it can legally be imported into any other EU country for up to 6 months. So, if it's legal in the UK, the Spanish are wrong to fine you (and at least 2 people have managed to reclaim the fines, though at great cost of time and effort. So is it legal in the UK. The argument is that: 1. The A-frame turns the car into a trailer and tghus trailer law applies to it. 2. However, most A-frames have an overrun braking system that makes it very difficult to reverse under control and with the car going where you want. One of the legal provisions is that such reversing should be possible. I know one supplier of A-frames has demonstrated an ability to reverse satisfactorily to the DforT, but I doubt if most drivers would be able to do so. 3. So compliance with the law is ambiguous. My personal view was stated in the articles. Having towed a Daewoo Matiz for over 4 years on an A-frame fitted by the leading UK supplier, I was not stopped in Spain, France, Germany, Denmark or the Low Countries. However the towing system stopped me far too often, first because it was wrongly fitted, and then because the overheating of the brakes caused by the incorrect fitting led to front wheel bearing failure. And also because the system did not prove reliable in use. So I stopped, downsized and am now a happy and relaxed non-tower. If you must have a car with you, put it on a trailer. By the way, unless the situation has changed in the last 6 months, the Brake Buddy system, though approved for use in many (but not all) states of the USA, is not EU approved. At the very least, be very sure that your insurers know you are using it and give written approval.