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Long sea crossing to Spain


hymer1942

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Posted
Morning all, can anyone tell me what price they have had for either single or return for a 6.5 mertre van towing a small car [ Matiz ], just thought we might do it for a change. Barrie
Posted

Hi, now that Brittany Ferries have a monopoly (P&O stopped last year) they have increased their prices to the point of being ridiculous and down right greedy. I looked at their price for a return for my 6.3m autosleeper for departure in 2 weeks, it was £850, plus fuel Bilbao to Benecasim.

I have booked P&O Dover/Calais out 4 Oct 0830 and return mid november 1430 total £70 return plus fuel (Aires on the way down and back) and the difference is £500 less for the longer drive even though I live in Portsmouth and am only a few miles from the ferry port.

 

Brittany ferries can go and take a running jump as far as I am concerned. There was a thread discussing the Brittany ferries saga a short while ago.

 

Off to the sun soon - Mike

Posted
Never done that crossing Barrie . we prefer Dover Calais, as it is always the cheapest option, and I enjoy the drive through France even in January,and we have all the time in the world to do it, I hope you are aware of the latest on A frames if you are using one in Spain etc,
Posted

If you did not get stopped in Spain last year then consider yourself lucky. Two friends of ours, one with an American RV and one with a normal 6.5m coachbuilt were stopped and fined, told to de-couple the rig and then the police checked the wifes licence and insurance for the towed car to make sure that the wife

was legal to drive the car before they were sent on their way.

 

The problem is that while an item/situation that is legal in one EU country must be accepted in another country the situation must be on the statute books. In the UK an A frame is not illegal, it is not on the books as being legal, so the Spanish say that in this case as it is not legal then is must be illegal, hence they will fine you.

 

We have met fellow travellers who say that it is worth the risk of 60 to 100 Euro fine IF they are unlucky to get caught and so far they have got away with it. So you pays your money (if caught) and takes your chances.

Posted
mike 202 - 2011-09-25 4:01 PM

 

If you did not get stopped in Spain last year then consider yourself lucky. Two friends of ours, one with an American RV and one with a normal 6.5m coachbuilt were stopped and fined, told to de-couple the rig and then the police checked the wifes licence and insurance for the towed car to make sure that the wife

was legal to drive the car before they were sent on their way.

 

The problem is that while an item/situation that is legal in one EU country must be accepted in another country the situation must be on the statute books. In the UK an A frame is not illegal, it is not on the books as being legal, so the Spanish say that in this case as it is not legal then is must be illegal, hence they will fine you.

 

We have met fellow travellers who say that it is worth the risk of 60 to 100 Euro fine IF they are unlucky to get caught and so far they have got away with it. So you pays your money (if caught) and takes your chances.

So you see Barrie it may well be different this year, I have read threads like this on several Forums lately so I guess f you need a car whilst away you need a trailer or a car and Caravan??
Posted
mike 202 - 2011-09-25 4:01 PM

 

If you did not get stopped in Spain last year then consider yourself lucky. Two friends of ours, one with an American RV and one with a normal 6.5m coachbuilt were stopped and fined, told to de-couple the rig and then the police checked the wifes licence and insurance for the towed car to make sure that the wife

was legal to drive the car before they were sent on their way.

 

The problem is that while an item/situation that is legal in one EU country must be accepted in another country the situation must be on the statute books. In the UK an A frame is not illegal, it is not on the books as being legal, so the Spanish say that in this case as it is not legal then is must be illegal, hence they will fine you.

 

We have met fellow travellers who say that it is worth the risk of 60 to 100 Euro fine IF they are unlucky to get caught and so far they have got away with it. So you pays your money (if caught) and takes your chances.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm afraid that it's not a case in Spain of A-frame car towing being sort of "assumed illegal because there's nothing in Spanish Law that make is legal".

 

It is specifically banned here.

Towing a car using an A-frame is illegal in Spain because the towing of any vehicle by any other vehicle is Spain is specifically prohibited. That prohibition applies nationally, right across the country.

 

There are a couple of "in emergency" exception situations allowed by this law: eg to get a vehicle off a road, or to the nearest village, but NOT when using any highway of motorway at all)

 

If you read Spanish, you can google for the specific law that prohibits it.

It is "Article 9.3 of the General Rules of vehicles" here in Spain.

 

To comply with the law, you must have your car on a proper trailer if towing it behind a MH

Posted

Well BGD has put it in a nutshell. All of the unbelievers who think that the stories of people who have been caught is just part of an urban myth can think again now.

The Adverts in MMM and other Mags promoting the sale and use of A-frames will I am sure continue as thay can be used "legally ??" in the UK and maybee some other European countries and some will I am sure convince themselves that some of us including BGD have got it wrong.

 

However I am sure that I will see lots of "disbelievers" still using A-frames and then probably squeeling that it is not fair when they are fined.

 

Nobody deliberatly puts stories or urban myths on this forum just for the fun of it - we all try to help each other.

Mike

 

 

Posted

I'll try to include below a copy of the definitive Spanish Traffico Directive on the laws applicable to motorhomes that was published in 2008, and which covers all motorhomes " circulating" (travelling) on any Spanish roads.

 

I'll include the whole Directive document for you, but the bit that stresses that motorhomes are specifically prohibited from towing any other vehicle (other than on a proper trailer) on any Spanish roads is in Section 8, near to the bottom of the Directive.

 

I got this (in Spanish) a while ago from a Spanish motorhome forum, who got it from the Guardia Civil Traffico Headquarters. This is the actual Spanish law with regard to motorhomes that Guardia Civil Traffico officers are charged with enforcing.

I've translated it into English:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Instrucción 08/V-74 (In English)

 

INSTRUCTION 08/V-74 FROM THE SPANISH DIRECTOR GENERAL OF TRAFFIC RELATIVE TO MOTORHOMES

 

MINISTRY OF INTERIOR

 

 

 

Instruction 08/V-74

 

The steady growth that has been experienced in recent years in the use of motorhomes in Spain together with the lack of specific regulation of some aspects related to this activity, has led to the adoption at the plenary session of the Senate for a motion urging the Government to take the necessary measures to support the development of this practice and regulate the use of motorhomes.

 

For this reason, the Director General of Traffic has recognised the need to collect and interpret in a single document, all regulatory aspects that relate to motorhomes, and to include in traffic and motor vehicle legislation.

 

1. - CONCEPT

 

Annex II of the General Rules of Vehicles, approved by Royal Decree 2822/1998, of December 23, defines a motor home as "a special purpose vehicle built, including living accommodation, and containing at least the following equipment: seats and table, beds and bunk beds that can be converted into seats, kitchen and wardrobes or the like. This equipment will be permanently fixed or attached to the living compartment. The seats and the table can be designed to be easily disassembled. "

 

This and other definitions of “vehicles” are the result of the disappearance of any existing guidelines on the matter. Specifically the Commission Directive 2001/116/EC of 20 December 2001 by which technical progress is adapted to Ruling 70/156/EEC on the approximation of laws of Member States concerning the approval of motor vehicles and trailers, paragraph 5.1 of section A of Annex II refers to a motorhome as "any special category M vehicle manufactured to include accommodation with the following minimum equipment: seats and table, beds that may be converted from the seats, kitchen and wardrobes. This equipment will be firmly fixed or attached to the habitable zone, although the table may be designed to be easily removable."

 

Category M vehicles are "motor vehicles with at least four wheels, designed and manufactured for the transportation of passengers" and although the Ruling (116/2001/CEE) does not say so explicitly, it can be inferred that if having a maximum capacity for eight seats (excluding the driver), we are referring to M1 vehicles. However, section 1 of section C of Annex II Instruction 2001/116/EC, referring to the types of bodywork of passenger cars (M1), mentions the following: AA saloon, AB saloon with a rear hatch, AC shooting break, AD coupé, AE Convertible and AF Multi Use, not referring to Motorhomes in the said paragraph 1, but does so in paragraph 5, within another category of vehicles called "special vehicles" (1).

 

Therefore, allowing that it deals with vehicles of category M1, the body/coachwork is not included in the category for passenger cars but in the category of so-called "special vehicles", which is not surprising since they are built on the chassis of commercial vehicles used commonly for the manufacture of vans and light trucks, where the length typically ranges between 5.50m. and 8m, the average height is around 3m. and the maximum permissible weight is very frequently 3,500 kg, and in some cases even more, characteristics that have nothing to do with the usual passenger car, and which affects manoeuvrability, braking distance, behaviour, turning, etc.

 

Therefore, notwithstanding the existence of a series of vans, where the interior has been conditioned with accommodation, commonly known as "Camper", it can be concluded that motorhomes are normally "special purpose vehicles of category M1", whose existence is referred to, among others, in Article 2.2 of the Instruction 2001/116/EC of the commission, thus are different to passenger cars and therefore worthy of specific regulation in some precise areas such as in determining the maximum speed limits on roads outside of town. However, in other aspects such as circulation, stopping and parking, motorhomes are governed by the rules applicable in general to all motor vehicles.

 

2. - MAXIMUM SPEED

 

Article 48.1 a) General Rules of Circulation, approved by Royal Decree 1428/2003, of November 21 establishes the speed limits for motor vehicles on main roads out of towns under the following terms:

 

A) Motor Vehicles

 

1.On motorways and freeways (autovias): passenger cars and motorcycles 120km/h; buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 100km/h; lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers of up to 750 kg., 90 Km/h; remaining passenger cars with trailer: 80 km/h.

 

2.On conventional roads marked as freeways (autovias) and on the rest of conventional roads as long as these have a hard shoulder of 1.50m. or more in width, or more than one lane for one of the directions of traffic: passenger cars and motorcycles, 100 Km/h; buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 90 Km/h; lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers 80km/h.

 

3.On the rest of roads out of town: passenger cars and motorcycles 90 Km/h: buses, vehicles derived from passenger cars and adapted hybrid vehicles, 80km/h, lorries, articulated vehicles, tractor lorries, vans and passenger cars with trailers 70km/h.

 

4.On any kind of road where circulation of such vehecles is permitted: three wheel vehicles and quads, 70 km/h.

 

As motorhomes are “special category M1 vehicles" and different to passenger cars, it is considered justified not to apply the same speed limits, outside of town, as passenger cars, but to apply the speed limits for other vehicles of category M (destined for the transport of passengers), which results in the following speed limits:

 

- On motorways and freeways .................................................. ............. 100 Km/h

 

- On conventional roads marked as roads for motor vehicles and roads with a hard shoulder of at least 1,50m. width or with more than one lane for one of the directions of traffic .................................................. .................................................. ..... 90 Km/h

 

- On the rest of roads, out of town .................................................. .......... 80 Km/h

 

The above speed limits apply to motorhomes which are driven without trailers, classified on their ITV card with the following codes:

- 3148 (mixed vehicle/accommodation)

- 3200 (unspecified motorhome with MMA less than or equal to 3,500 kg.)

- 3248 (motorhome with accommodation with MMA less than or equal to 3,500 kg.)

 

Motorhomes classified with codes:

- 3300 (unspecified motorhome with MMA over 3,500 Kg.)

- 3348 (motorhome with accommodation with MMA over 3,500 Kg.)

- 2448 (Van with accommodation)

will be governed by the same speed limits as for lorries (on account of their higher maximum permissible weight ( MMA) and other vans; thus their speed limits are 90 Km/h on motorways and freeways, and 80 km/h on conventional roads.

 

On urban roadways, regardless of the classification code, motorhomes will be subject to the general speed limit for all vehicles of 50km/h, as stipulated in Article 50 of the General Traffic Regulations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

3. - STOPPING AND PARKING

 

Under the heading "Stopping and parking," the General Traffic Regulations regulate in Chapter VIII (Articles 90 to 94), the rules applicable to these manoeuvres, regarding places where these manoeuvres can be made, method and form of execution, position of vehicle, Municipal Ordinance and prohibited places, which must be observed by all vehicles in general.

 

3.1 urban roadways

 

Regarding places where stopping and parking in urban streets should be carried out, Article 90.2 of the General Traffic Regulations indicate in the second paragraph what should be observed in effect of the provisions of the ordinances decreed by the Municipal Authorities, in connection with which Article 93 states:

 

1. The regime of stopping and parking in urban streets will be regulated by municipal ordinance, and the necessary measures may be taken to prevent the obstruction of traffic, including time limits for the duration of parking or stopping, as well as the precise corrective measures, including the clamping or towing of the vehicle when a valid parking ticket is not displayed which authorises parking in zones limited by time or exceed the time limit granted and until the identity of the driver can be ascertained.

 

2. In no event may the municipal ordinance oppose, alter, distort, or cause confusion with the precepts of this regulation.

 

One of the most frequent complaints made before the Traffic Department by users of motorhomes is the prohibition to park which is applied to these vehicles, in part or in entirety, on the urban streets and which some municipalities incorporate into their ordinances.

 

These regulations are made under Article 7 of the articles of the Law on Traffic, Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety, approved by Royal Decree 339/1990 of March 2, which give municipalities a series of competencies, within that law, including:

 

 

b) The regulation by Municipal Traffic Ordinance on the use of urban roads, making compatible the fair distribution of parking among all users, with the necessary flow of traffic, as well as the establishment of limited parking, to ensure the rotation of parking, ..”

 

Therefore, in the opinion of the General Director of Traffic it is indisputable that the exclusion of certain users must be necessarily motivated and based on reasonable objections such as the external dimensions of the vehicle or the maximum permissible weight (MMA) of the vehicle but not by use of subjective reasons such as: possible uncivilised behaviour by some users such as noise at night, dumping of garbage or waste water onto the public road, monopolization of public space by erecting structures and furnishings or other situations of abuse against which local authorities have effective legal tools to be used in a non-discriminatory manner against all violators, whether users of motorhomes or any other type of vehicle.

 

Motorhome users are permitted to carry out manoeuvres of stopping and parking in the same conditions and with the same limitations as any other vehicle.

 

With regard to the mode and manner of implementation of stopping and parking, Article 91 of the General Traffic Regulations states that these exercises "should be made so that the vehicle does not hamper the circulation of traffic nor is a risk to other users the road, especially observing the positioning of the vehicle and avoiding that the vehicle is able to move in the absence of the driver.

 

As to the positioning of the vehicle, the cited Article 92 of the General Traffic Regulations state:

 

"1. Stopping and parking will be conducted by placing the vehicle in parallel to the kerb of the street or roadway. As an exception, an alternative positioning will be permitted when the characteristics of the street or roadway or other circumstances so warrant.

 

2. Any driver who stops or parks the vehicle must do so in a way that allows a maximum use of the remaining space available.

 

3. In the case of a motor vehicle or motorcycle, when the driver has to abandon the vehicle, the following rules should be observed, where applicable:

a) Stop the engine and disconnect the ignition and, if leaving the vehicle, take the necessary precautions to prevent its unauthorized use.

b) Engage the hand-brake.

c) In a vehicle equipped with gearbox, leave the first gear engaged if parked on an upward slope, and the reverse gear engaged if parked on downward slope, or, in the parking position if automatic

d) When the vehicle is superior to 3,500 kilograms of maximum permissible weight (MMA), a bus or coach or a combination of vehicles, and when stopping or parking is conducted in a place with a marked slope, the driver must also use proper wheel blocks; stones, bricks or other items not specifically intended for this use cannot be used, nor by resting one of the wheels on the kerb of the pavement, nor by inclining the wheels towards the centre of the road on upward slopes nor outwards on downward slopes. The wheel blocks must be removed from the road after use and prior to driving away.

 

 

The General Traffic Regulations do not establish any other conditions for stopping or parking a vehicle, so, therefore the General Directorate of Traffic believes that while any vehicle is parked properly, without exceeding markings on the delimitation of the parking space, nor exceeds the time permitted (if any), it is irrelevant whether the occupants are inside the vehicle or not, and thus motorhomes are no exception, so long as any activity or occupancy in the interior does not extand to the exterior by the setting up of elements which surpass the perimeter of the vehicle such as stalls, awnings, levelling devices, stabilizing devices, etc.

 

3.2 intercity routes (Highways)

 

Article 90.1 of the General Traffic Regulations defines the places where stopping and parking should be carried out on intercity routes noting that this should be done as far away from the roadway, on the right hand side, leaving part of the hard shoulder free for transit.

 

In general, on motorways and highways it is forbidden to carry out manoeuvres of stopping and parking for all vehicles, except in areas specially assigned for these manoeuvres.

 

The General Traffic Regulations, Article 91, on stopping and parking on intercity routes concerning the method and manner of implementation are already covered in the previous point, as well as the considerations in relation to parking in urban streets and the presence of people inside a vehicle correctly parked, without prejudice to the possibility of parking in areas of service stations or on private land where other conditions can be agreed with the owners.

 

Other concepts in some way associated with the parking of motorhomes, such as camping and overnight stays are not included in the rule on circulation of motor vehicles and road safety, therefore, this agency cannot pronounce on the definition or on the implications.

 

 

 

4. - SEAT-BELT USE AND RESTRAINT DEVICES

 

Seat belts or other approved restraint systems, properly fastened by the driver and passengers of motor homes in both urban and intercity routes must be used.

 

Failure to meet this obligation by certain people depending on their size and age to match the following requirements:

 

1. - Front seats: It is forbidden to circulate with minors under twelve years of age in the front seats unless they use devices approved for that purpose. Exceptionally, when the height of the minor is equal to, or in excess of, 135 cm, children of twelve years may use as such a device the same seat belt for adults that are equipped in the front seats.

 

2 .- Other seats: People whose height reaches 135 cm and does not exceed 150 cm may use either an approved restraint system adapted to their height and weight or seat belts for adults that are equipped in the these seats.

 

3 .- In motorhomes that are not equipped with approved safety devices specially adapted to the size and weight of the users, children under three years of age will not be permitted to travel and those older than three years that have failed to reach the 135-centimeter, can not take a front seat.

 

The rules as set out completely exclude the possibility of occupying the beds or bunks of a motorhome whilst in circulation, due to the obvious risk to the occupants in the event of sudden braking, collision or rollover, but you can occupy seats equipped with approved retention systems, provided that the number of people travelling in the vehicle, either in the cockpit or in the living area, does not exceed the legally permitted places that are recorded in the documentation of the vehicle.

 

5. - EQUIPMENT

 

The minimum equipment which a motorhome should carry, will be in accordance with Annex XII of the General Rules of Vehicle, as follows: One set of replacement light bulbs, in prime condition and the necessary tools to change the light bulbs; two portable, red, triangle devices to forewarn of danger; a spare wheel or a temporary wheel with the necessary tools required to change the wheel or an alternative system, which offers sufficient guarantee for the mobility of the vehicle.

 

Likewise, when drivers and/or passengers leave the vehicle and occupy the road or the hard shoulder on intercity routes a high-visibility reflective vest, certified according to the Royal Decree 1407/1992, of November 20, must be used.

 

6. - TECHNICAL INSPECTION (ITV Testing)

 

According to Royal Decree 711/2006, of June 9, in which certain royal decrees relating to the ITV inspection of vehicles and vehicle spares and parts and the approval of vehicles, has been modified, therefore the General Vehicle Regulations, approved by royal decree 2822/1998 of December 23, the following frequency of inspection applies to motorhomes:

Age of vehicle:

- Up to four years: exempt.

- More than four years: every two years.

- More than ten years: annual

 

 

7. – SERVICE AREAS OR REST AREAS

 

These are facilities designed specifically to service or host motorhomes providing a range of necessary services for these vehicles, primarily: parking, drinking water supply and place to empty deposits.

 

Unlike Camp Sites, service or host areas provide the physical space strictly necessary to park the vehicle and can be publicly or privately owned.

 

There are about 60 such facilities in Spain, for which, through the motion by the full Senate on May 9, 2006, the Government was urged to create a traffic road sign within the road signal service area.

 

The General Directorate of Traffic believes that, without prejudice to the future design and inclusion in the official catalogue of traffic road signs of a specific design indicating the location of a service or host area for motor homes, the current signal S-122 "other services” in the official catalogue of traffic signs added to Annex I of the General Rules of Circulation allows this need to be satisfied by including a simple pictogram.

 

 

 

 

8. - AUXILIARY TRANSPORT VEHICLES

 

It is very common for motorhomes to transport auxiliary vehicles, usually bicycles or a motorcycle or a moped of small cylinder capacity. This practice is authorised provided an approved cycle carrier or platform for this purpose is used and when this overhangs the perimeter of the motorhome, the following conditions are met in accordance with the provisions of Articles 15 of the General Rules of Circulation:

 

a. If it protrudes from the projection in plant of the motorhome, at the rear, up to 10% of its length and if only one vehicle (indivisible load), 15%.

 

b. All appropriate precautions should be taken to prevent damage or hazard to other road users, and the protruding element should be protected to minimize damage by possible rubbing against it or collision.

 

c. If a carrier, it should be marked by the signal V-20 referred to in Article 173 and whose features are set out in Annex XI of the General Rules of vehicles. This signal is placed at the rear of the cargo so as to constantly be perpendicular to the axis of the vehicle.

 

Consultations have also been made on the possibility of a motorhome being allowed to tow a car; but that possibility is prohibited by Article 9.3 of the General Rules of vehicles that prohibits the circulation of a motor vehicle dragging another, except when it is damaged or broken down and cannot be towed by another vehicle specifically intended for that purpose, in which case it is allowed only to tow to the nearest town or village where it can be detained without hindering the traffic, and always provided they are not travelling on a motorway or highway.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, the circulation of a combination composed of a motor vehicle and a trailer or semi trailer on which another vehicle is transported, is allowed if the combination meets the conditions for driving on public roads and is approved according to Directives 70/156/EEC and 94/20/EC and also does not exceed the maximum permitted length for these combinations which is that of 18.75 meters for trailers and 16.50 meters for semi trailers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

To be made public for general knowledge.

 

Madrid, Jan. 28, 2008

 

THE DIRECTOR GENERAL

 

Pere Navarro Olivella

 

TO BE DISTRIBUTED TO ALL UNITS OF THE AGENCY

__________________

 

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