A Frame fines

[Hilux]

From a different perspective, if the driver of a vehicle towing an A frame has a road traffic accident in Spain then the insurance company might well ask for a report from the police. This report would state that the vehicle was not compliant with Spanish road traffic law and hence on the road unlawfully. The driver's insurance could well refuse to pay out.

 

You have to ask is: it worth the risk? It's not the value of the fine but the value of the asset which is at risk. The driver could possibly face severe financial penalties, including local imprisonment, if the vehicle is seen to be non compliant under the circumstances of an RTA.

 

Hilux

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

francisgraham - 2011-10-13 1:15 PM

 

...I believe that a responsible organisation such as the Caravan Club, which I presume has a legal department, should pursue the Department of Transport and ask it to clarify the law vis a vis trailers and A-frames and enshrine its decision in a statute so that there is no longer any doubt about the legality or otherwise of towing an A-frame...

 

I'm not sure how easy it would be to convince a main player like the Caravan Club that it should pursue this issue with the DfT as it's clearly a nest of worms. It might be possible to get the CC to take the matter up if a large percentage of its motorcaravanning members were A-frame towing, but that's clearly not the case. As I understand it, no motorcaravanner has ever been prosecuted for A-frame towing within the UK, so there's no real pressure on the CC (or other influential lesisure-vehicle-related organisations) or on UK governmental bodies to change the status quo.

 

The CC's advice on A-frame towing in Continental Europe is on:

 

http://www.caravanclub.co.uk/planning-your-trip/overseas-trips/overseas-advice-leaflets/general-legal-requirements/

[Tony Jones]

Trouble is, no Government dept can ever reliably "clarify the law" in this country.

 

"The Law" is just whatever words Parliament has approved, and the only people who can "clarify" (ie interpret) that wording are the judges - once a "test case" has been brought.

 

The only thing the Govt could do would be to introduce a new, more explicit, Act of Parliament. They don't have any legal authority to "clarify" what's already been passed.

[francisgraham]

Tony Jones - 2011-10-13 10:19 PMTrouble is, no Government dept can ever reliably "clarify the law" in this country."The Law" is just whatever words Parliament has approved, and the only people who can "clarify" (ie interpret) that wording are the judges - once a "test case" has been brought.The only thing the Govt could do would be to introduce a new, more explicit, Act of Parliament. They don't have any legal authority to "clarify" what's already been passed.

Parliament enacts the law of the land and it must be obeyed. Judges only become involved if someone challenges the law. 99% of legislation is never challenged and we only ever read about the more contentious issues.

Are you suggesting for instance that, if parliament votes to raise the motorway speed limit to 80 mph, that it will not become law until it's been approved by the judiciary?

Judges cannot abrogate a law. They can interpret it if its definition is not simplistic, but that's all. In the case of A-frame towing for instance the law needs clarifying and this can easily be done by parliament specifying that a trailer fitting the description of an A-frame can legally be towed in the UK.

If this was on the statute books it would be law and would remain so until challenged. But this would be one of the examples that probably wouldn't, so it would never come before a judge.

Judges only have a say when an act of parliament is challenged and this happens infrequently. And if a judge does rule against the government over the definition of a particular act the government can simply rewrite the law so as to close whichever loophole has been highlighted in the case, and this also happens frequently.

Parliament is ultimately sovereign, not judges. Excepting of course where EU law overrules UK law, but the same principle applies to that anyway.

[aultymer]

Thanks' fg' for a legal perspective on this issue.

 

I am happy to tow my wee car, because: - I can, no one has said I can't and I really find the wee car usefull

.

What I find hard to understand are posts from people who swear they don't see the point or would never do it - why do they feel the need to get involved in the discussion? It is a bit like me commenting on English devolution - why would I bother?

[Guest JudgeMental]

Because it is a forum of opinion......Not for you to decide who can contribute. *-)

[aultymer]

JudgeMental - 2011-10-14 8:34 AM

 

Because it is a forum of opinion......Not for you to decide who can contribute. *-)

 

Hey man, take a chill pill !!! The MENTAL bit in your name is taking over.

 

I did not say anything about who could or could not contribute.

 

I commented only on my own lack of understanding of the situation.

[Derek Uzzell]

aultymer - 2011-10-14 12:12 AM

 

..What I find hard to understand are posts from people who swear they don't see the point or would never do it - why do they feel the need to get involved in the discussion?...

 

I tend to agree. Although I have no intention of towing anything with a motorhome (irrespective of the method involved) I can appreciate the attraction of using a motorhome to tow a small car and I can understand why people might choose to do this with an A-frame.

 

Although nobody has actually told you that you must not tow your car on an A-frame, I'm sure you'd agree that it would be preferable if it were absolutely certain that you could do this in and outside the UK with no likelihood of being penalised. That's why francisgraham would like the practice to be legally formalised in the UK.

 

Personally, I think formalisation is a vain hope. In any case, if there is to be pressure applied to gain clarification and regulation amendment, it should surely come from the A-framers themselves and from the companies marketing the towing products.

 

However, as I understand it, the companies marketing the products claim that the usage of those products is already legal and many of the UK A-framers (like yourself) are plainly unconcerned about the legality issue. That leaves those A-framers who do have legality reservations, but I'd guess their numbers are quite small. Nevertheless, if the latter motorcaravanners aren't prepared to get off their backsides and put some serious research and effort into gaining A-frame usage formalisation, nobody else is likely to do it for them.

[crinklystarfish]

aultymer - 2011-10-14 12:12 AM  ...What I find hard to understand are posts from people who swear they don't see the point or would never do it - why do they feel the need to get involved in the discussion? ...

To give the subject some context and maybe inspire some critical thinking. In many aspects of life people get fixated on a 'solution' without correctly identifying the problem and end up just dealing with symptoms rather than curing the cause.

Most people fixated on towing with an A-frame would be far better served if they a) bought a suitably sized motorhome in the first place, b) bought a demountable on a pick-up, c) Used some other means of getting about when at a destination, or d) forgot about motorhomes and bought a suitable car / caravan 'outfit'.

Those not directly involved often have a more balanced and objective perspective and can see the absurdity. 

Motorhomes are, well, motorised homes, ideally suited for moving from place to place; not terribly suited to being driven to a fixed destination and parked up for two weeks: that's what caravans are good at.

Once that simple notion is grasped, the 'problem' of contravening foreign law, or whinging about who in the UK should do what about legalising something that isn't illegal vanishes.

That's why.

[aultymer]

Well done crinklystarfish. Did you write all that yourself?

 

The 'A' frame towers are not the ones with a 'fixation'.

They are the ones with a solution.

 

They solve the problem of limited mobility - not everyone can 'get on their bikes'.

They solve a problem af accessibility - some towns and villages could be inconvienenced by some vans entering them.

They solve the problem of where to put a trailer so that it does not incur extra fees on campsites and so that it does not get stolen.

They solve the problem of towing a trailer where the centre of gravity is higher than it needs to be (never a good thing).

They solve the problem of having to own a large towcar - small toad makes a more economical day to day car.

They solve the problem of caravans overturning the towcar - it happens.

 

Could think of more but I do have a ;life to get on with.

[aultymer]

Well done crinklystarfish. Did you write all that yourself?

 

The 'A' frame towers are not the ones with a 'fixation'.

They are the ones with a solution.

 

They solve the problem of limited mobility - not everyone can 'get on their bikes'.

They solve a problem af accessibility - some towns and villages could be inconvienenced by some vans entering them.

They solve the problem of where to put a trailer so that it does not incur extra fees on campsites and so that it does not get stolen.

They solve the problem of towing a trailer where the centre of gravity is higher than it needs to be (never a good thing).

They solve the problem of having to own a large towcar - small toad makes a more economical day to day car.

They solve the problem of caravans overturning the towcar - it happens.

 

Could think of more but I do have a life to get on with.

[francisgraham]

aultymer - 2011-10-14 12:12 AMThanks' fg' for a legal perspective on this issue.I am happy to tow my wee car, because: - I can, no one has said I can't and I really find the wee car usefull.What I find hard to understand are posts from people who swear they don't see the point or would never do it - why do they feel the need to get involved in the discussion? It is a bit like me commenting on English devolution - why would I bother?

An acquaintance of mine, who I can assure you has an intellect as good, if not superior, to anyone that I've come across on this forum, tows a small car behind his motorhome.

When he has his summer trip, which may be to anywhere in Europe, he doesn't tow his car, as he is touring and exploring and doesn't spend long periods in one place. He does though take a folding bicycle for short journeys to the local shop or whatever.

However, being retired, he now spends a couple of months in southern Spain each winter and books a long-term stay on one site. On this occasion he tows his car behind his motorhome as he finds it much more convenient for exploring and shopping.

If what he is doing is idiotic, as at least one contributor appears to be suggesting, what is his alternative? He doesn't drive a large car at home and his motorhome isn't enormous by any means, so perhaps he should invest in a larger car and a caravan for his trip to Spain?

So he'd then have a motorhome, a large car and a caravan, which to my mind doesn't seem too efficient.

I can never see myself towing a car but my holiday pattern is very different from his but I can understand why he does what he does.

So are all these people who tow small cars congenital idiots? I don't think so and I will defend their right to do it, as long as it's legal!

The only thing worse than being an idiot is being the kind of person who condemns anyone whose lifestyle and choices differ from his.

So in this case I'm with Aultymer. If someone asks about sat-nav devices, it is most irritating when some clever sod pops up and tells you that you don't need these things and suggests that there's nothing better than a good map.

How would anyone feel if they asked for advice on buying a Uni-mog, because that's what they've decided suits their lifestyle, and the thread is filled with moaners asking why anyone would want to own a gas-guzzling, emissions-belching monster that does eight miles to the gallon? 

I shall defend anyone's right to have a Uni-thingy, just as I'll defend anyone's right to tow a small car! 

[eric hobson]

As one of the cretins/idiots who tows a car behind his motorhome I would like to pose a related question. What do motorhomers do for transport whilst at home? Do they use their motorhome,public transport or a car? If the latter what do they do with the car when they travel abroad? I only ask because I was told some time ago by a major insurance company that if I travelled abroad and left my car behind, even in a locked garage, my insurance would be null and void. Have I been misinformed or doesn,t anyone ask the question?

With regard to towing a car behind a motorhome I do so because it is convenient for me to do so and is my choice. I do not tell others how to conduct their lives and don,t expect anyone to tell me either.

I worked hard to earn money to make choices and if that doesn,t meet everyones approval then tough.

I also have a tag-axle motorhome so I really do fall into the perverse category.

[Mel B]

eric hobson - 2011-10-14 2:35 PM

 

As one of the cretins/idiots who tows a car behind his motorhome I would like to pose a related question. What do motorhomers do for transport whilst at home? Do they use their motorhome,public transport or a car? If the latter what do they do with the car when they travel abroad? I only ask because I was told some time ago by a major insurance company that if I travelled abroad and left my car behind, even in a locked garage, my insurance would be null and void. Have I been misinformed or doesn,t anyone ask the question?.

 

Interesting ... I've never heard that one before ... was it due to the length of time you were planning on being away similar to house insurance which is only 'valid' for a set number of days being left empty?

[Mel B]

francisgraham - 2011-10-14 11:10 AM

... So in this case I'm with Aultymer. If someone asks about sat-nav devices, it is most irritating when some clever sod pops up and tells you that you don't need these things and suggests that there's nothing better than a good map.

 

How would anyone feel if they asked for advice on buying a Uni-mog, because that's what they've decided suits their lifestyle, and the thread is filled with moaners asking why anyone would want to own a gas-guzzling, emissions-belching monster that does eight miles to the gallon?  Ishall defend anyone's right to have a Uni-thingy, just as I'll defend anyone's right to tow a small car! 

 

Whilst I agree with you to a certain extent, you have to remember that this is a forum which, after all, is basically a 'written' conversation with, hopefully, friends. It works in the same way that face to face conversations go off on a tangent occasionally, or a friend may make a silly (funny) remark, so posts do the same. It's like the ebb and flow of the sea - you may only be interested in watching the waves crashing on the beach, but a crab or starfish may wander in to 'disrupt' that scene, or a seagull may pounce and nick your chips, or kids may laugh at your swimsuit :$ , but you soon get back to what you were doing originally ... watching the sea and stuffing yourself with chips.

 

As for the 'unhelpful' comments themselves, it may not be that unhelpful if the prospective owner of Unimog hadn't considered the running costs!!! 8-)

 

You can decide who the crabs and seagulls are ... and of course the kids! :D

[Brian Kirby]

I don't think we should get het-up with each other about towing cars, or on the desirability of A frames in general. Their convenience and advantages over using a trailer, are obvious.

However, that was not the point of the OP, which concerned whether anyone on this forum had direct experience of being fined in Spain for so doing. Others merely sought to point out to him that, irrespective of individual experiences, the risk is real and should be taken into account, however disagreeable that may seem.

So far as I am concerned, folk can tow whatever they like with whatever they prefer, legal or otherwise, as the consequences, if any, will be their sole concern.

Notwithstanding, there is a well-rehearsed legal problem over the status of A frames outside the UK, that leaves owners of UK registered vehicles at risk of fines, if they choose to tow abroad with A frames. Our only problem, it seems to me, is that some A fame fans rather tend to deny that risk, which is a little unfair on anyone considering buying one such. This is an open forum that may influence the decisions of others, possibly novices, and in that context we should not deny inconvenient truths merely because we don't like them. The OP was not doing this, he was seeking information.

In answer to Eric's question regarding insurance on a vehicle while the owner is abroad, I strongly suspect he was misinformed. It may reflect the insurance contract in question, but what of all those folk who fly off for the proverbial two weeks on the costa bomb. They can't take their cars with them on Ryan Air - think of the excess baggage charges! :-) Besides which, what difference does it make where the owner goes? Is Thailand really worse than Torquay, if you leave your car at home in Tottenham?

Our car stays at home, in our garage (for insurance purposes it only need be on our drive), and we walk, use public transport, or park the van somewhere handy to whatever we want to visit while away.

Like Eric, I would not presume to suggest this solution would suit all, or that they are wrong, misguided, or even cretinous, for choosing to do otherwise. Mind, what passes in the silent privacy of my cranium is an entirely different matter! But then, there's nowt so queer as folk, as some say. :-D

[Mel B]

Brian Kirby - 2011-10-14 7:02 PM

 

Like Eric, I would not presume to suggest this solution would suit all, or that they are wrong, misguided, or even cretinous, for choosing to do otherwise. Mind, what passes in the silent privacy of my cranium is an entirely different matter! But then, there's nowt so queer as folk, as some say. :-D

 

You trying to subtly tell us something about your 'alter ego' Brian! :$

 

... not into Rocky Horror by any chance??? :D

[Brian Kirby]

No Mel, more along the lines of "sometimes I sits and I thinks, and sometimes I just sits". Some folks do such strange things, but think they are normal. It's surprising what you see, when you just sits. :-D

[crinklystarfish]

I would have thought highlighting 'Most' by underlining it would make it very clear that towing a car behind a motorhome will be the perfect solution for Some.

How they do that is entirely up to them, I genuinely couldn't care less. 

I don't recall reading about anyone appearing to suggest people who tow cars are idiots, perhaps Mr Graham would enlighten us in this regard? The only reference to people towing cars as idiots has, as far as I can see, been introduced by Mr Graham himself.

I do, though, stand by my view that anyone who, having read this thread, still tows with an A Frame is Spain should view any fines they incur as a cretin tax. 

There will be people reading this who are considering their current, or next solution to mobility on holiday and I see little wrong in putting up the idea that towing a car behind a motorhome is mostly not the best overall solution.

If they choose to do so though, then that's up to them. I don't care and I certainly don't condemn them. If Mr Graham meant to imply in his somewhat ambiguous writing that I did, then maybe, once again, he would be so kind as to enlighten us regarding how he arrived at such a ridiculous conclusion.

Interesting that Mr Graham seems to be very willing to defend anyone's right to do anything legal, unless it's contributing their views on a public forum; in which case, as he so often tiresomely proves, he objects most hypocritically.

[francisgraham]

crinklystarfish - 2011-10-15 8:37 AM

I would have thought highlighting 'Most' by underlining it would make it very clear that towing a car behind a motorhome will be the perfect solution for Some.

How they do that is entirely up to them, I genuinely couldn't care less. 

I don't recall reading about anyone appearing to suggest people who tow cars are idiots, perhaps Mr Graham would enlighten us in this regard? The only reference to people towing cars as idiots has, as far as I can see, been introduced by Mr Graham himself.

I do, though, stand by my view that anyone who, having read this thread, still tows with an A Frame is Spain should view any fines they incur as a cretin tax. 

There will be people reading this who are considering their current, or next solution to mobility on holiday and I see little wrong in putting up the idea that towing a car behind a motorhome is mostly not the best overall solution.

If they choose to do so though, then that's up to them. I don't care and I certainly don't condemn them. If Mr Graham meant to imply in his somewhat ambiguous writing that I did, then maybe, once again, he would be so kind as to enlighten us regarding how he arrived at such a ridiculous conclusion.

Interesting that Mr Graham seems to be very willing to defend anyone's right to do anything legal, unless it's contributing their views on a public forum; in which case, as he so often tiresomely proves, he objects most hypocritically.

This is one sentence in a recent post of yours regarding towing using an A-frame:

'Those not directly involved often have a more balanced and objective perspective and can see the absurdity.'

 

Forgive me if I inferred from this that you think that people who tow using an A-Frame are absurd. It would also appear from the other posters that I'm not the only one!

[Rayjsj]

For goodness sake, Absurdity is in the eye of the beholder, Just because YOU think it is absurd doesn't mean it isn't 'The Perfect Solution' for thousands of others. I see many folks like you wandering around the sites sniggering and 'tut tutting' as they come across the 'many' Motorhomers who tow a car (mainly on 'A' Frames), Then the 'sniggered at' people go off using their car to visit the many places that can't be visited in even a relativley small camper or motorhome. Makes perfect sense to Me, even if I don't do it myself........yet. *-) Ray

[crinklystarfish]

francisgraham - 2011-10-15 8:52 AM 

...Forgive me if I inferred from this that you think that people who tow using an A-Frame are absurd. It would also appear from the other posters that I'm not the only one!

I do forgive you for your incorrect inference Mr Graham, though not for your consistent and insidious attempts to inflame, nor for your hypocrisy.

Ray, I don't know how to make it any clearer. I don't personally think that towing a car behind a motorhome is the best solution for most people. If they want to though, I don't care, and I don't condemn them.

My point is that it often takes an outsider's view to see the absurdity in a situation. That is why big business and policy makers the world over use consultants.

I am outside of the desire to tow a car with a motorhome and therefore perhaps in a useful position to objectively weigh all the theoretical options. I think towing is a poor solution in most cases because it inhibits the freedom that a motorhome is ideally suited to bring.

I am not alone in this view, others have posted with broadly the same opinion.

I posted some of the theoretical options in the hope that it might inspire some critical thought in those contemplating their mobility solutions on holiday.

It is clear from your anger that you think I am in some way attacking your own judgement. Please understand, I couldn't care less what you decide to do. Hope that's clear enough for you.

[eric hobson]

In answer to the query re; car insurance, the company was Churchill. I was astonished when they said the underwriters would not cover a car whilst the owner travelled overseas. I obviously asked the question how this related to people flying off on holiday and was told the same rules applied. I spoke to more than one person at Churchill to clarify this, still the same answer, maybe they just didn,t want my business.I stress this was several years ago. For 2 years I put a friends name on the cover and left the car for their use ( Saga insurance) before deciding to go down the A-frame route. I have not gone to Spain in the last 2 years for various reasons but leave on 30th Oct for a 5 month trip. I appreciate all recent advice on towing in Spain but would make another point. My motorhome insurers know I tow a car as do my car insurers. The CC who state in their brochures that towing is illegal have accepted the booking for motorhome towing a car with an A-frame as have Eurotunnel. The C&CC wil let you book sites for motorhome and towed car so obviously income overrides their view of illegal activities.

I will review the situation on return next year, regardless as to whether I am stopped or not. My choices this year were to leave the car in storage or take it with me, I chose the latter. My choice entirely, I accept the consequences.

[Brian Kirby]

Just on the point of fact, Eric, it seems the Caravan Club do not quite say A frame towing is "illegal". I'll copy below two quotes, one direct from their website (also included in their publication "General Legal Requirements"), the other from "Your top 20 motorhome questions". All are placed in the publicly accessible parts of their site - so I'm assuming quoting from these does not infringe their copyright. Just type A frame towing into the search area.

 

From the Caravan Club website, and the "General Legal Requirements" leaflet:

 

"A-Frames

If you would like to tow a car behind a motor caravan in Europe, our advice would be to use a trailer with all four wheels of the car off the ground.

Although most countries in Europe do not have a specific law banning A-frames they do have a law which prohibits “a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle”, and it is down to the local police how they interpret their own laws.

We have been contacted by a small number of members who have been stopped and fined for using an A-frame (particularly in Spain), and the fines range from €42.00 to €250.00. We have also been contacted by members who have travelled thousands of miles in Europe and not had any problems at all, however, if you want 100% guarantee that you are legal, you need to use a trailer with all four wheels of the car off the ground."

 

From the "Your top 20 motorhome questions" leaflet:

 

"7 Towing

Q Can I tow a small car behind my motor caravan?

A In the UK, although the law is a somewhat grey area on this, it appears it is acceptable to tow a car not weighing more than 750kg gross vehicle weight, which includes the weight of an unbraked A-frame. As far as the Continent is concerned, however, the majority of countries said that members of the public caught towing with an A-frame would be taken off the road. Therefore in all circumstances the Club recommends that vehicles are towed on a braked trailer which takes all four wheels of the car off the ground."

 

In view of the comment in "General legal requirements" about the club having been contacted by members following being fined for towing on a A frame, Barrie (Hymer1942) may find it worthwhile contacting the club to see if they can comment further - or even place him in touch with any of those who have been fined, so that he can get a first-hand report on their experiences.

[Mel B]

eric hobson - 2011-10-15 1:37 PM

The CC who state in their brochures that towing is illegal have accepted the booking for motorhome towing a car with an A-frame as have Eurotunnel. The C&CC wil let you book sites for motorhome and towed car so obviously income overrides their view of illegal activities.

 

The CC have not said it is categorically illegal have they? If someone chooses to tow a car on an A frame and books sites, a Eurotunnel or ferry crossing then it is up to them to be responsible for their own actions, not the organisations with whom they are making the transaction. Even if it was DEFINITELY illegal they wouldn't be responsible and would have no right to prevent you from making the booking etc, they are not the police after all and therefore don't enforce any laws. I don't see this as any different to someone buying a car who doesn't have a licence to drive it ... it doesn't prevent them buying it, if they then choose to drive it afterwards that is up to them, not who they bought it from.

 

I sincerely hope you don't get fined Eric, or anyone else for that matter, but you can't come back and say you weren't warned can you ... ;-)