eric hobson Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 In the CC European sites book it clearly states " towing a car behind a motorhome is illegal in most European countries " Thanks for all comments, I am not looking for confrontation with the authorities in Spain as being stopped with or without fine is a bit of a dampener but having made the choice to travel this way I have to accept the consequences. Maybe a head in the sand approach, but there it is. We all at times make the wrong decision,it,s called being human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 eric hobson - 2011-10-16 11:27 AM In the CC European sites book it clearly states " towing a car behind a motorhome is illegal in most European countries "....................... True, Eric, but that is essentially what the two quotes I provided above say. As your vehicles are UK registered, one can tow the other with the A frame within the UK, and this does not break any UK laws. However, outside the UK the arrangement is generally illegal. Notwithstanding, it seems many police officers "give a nod" to the European concept that foreign registered vehicles that otherwise would be considered to be breaking their laws, should not be challenged if they are legal in their state of registration. Therein, as said many times before, lies the rub. The A frame is not demonstrably "legal" in the UK, it is merely not illegal so, if challenged, drivers of such outfits cannot positively prove their legality in UK, and are thus liable to be fined by the more aggressive, or ambitious, police officer - or even one who is just having a bad day. It is rather a lottery as to whether anyone sees you in the first place, and whether, having seen you, they decide to look the other way, or pounce. On which note, may both your trip, and Barrie's, be blessed only with police officers in full possession of the Mk 2 "Nelson's eye". :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor-caravan Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 Hi, Is a car fitted with an "A" frame a car or is it a trailer, only it always seems that people keep switching backward and forward in there arguments, Is it illegal to make your own trailer ? Is a car fitted with a semi permanent conversion making it into a trailer classed as a trailer, if it is then perhaps we should refer to it as such. What are the European/UK legal regulations covering "Home Made Trailers" and what specific clauses within those regulations do home made trailers need to comply with, or more importantly what clauses within these legal regulations are not met when people make there own "Home Made Trailers" out of there cars and a few metal parts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 just as a matter of interest have a look at "Australian Road Trains" the maximum allowed length on the roads over there is 53.5 METERS not feet. What would the spanish police think of them on their roads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Motor-caravan - 2011-10-17 10:33 PM Hi, Is a car fitted with an "A" frame a car or is it a trailer, only it always seems that people keep switching backward and forward in there arguments, Is it illegal to make your own trailer ? Is a car fitted with a semi permanent conversion making it into a trailer classed as a trailer, if it is then perhaps we should refer to it as such. What are the European/UK legal regulations covering "Home Made Trailers" and what specific clauses within those regulations do home made trailers need to comply with, or more importantly what clauses within these legal regulations are not met when people make there own "Home Made Trailers" out of there cars and a few metal parts. The links on these site may be helpful http://www.transportsfriend.org/road/candu_3.html#trail http://www.batesontrailers.com/trailer-towing-guide.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Motor-caravan - 2011-10-17 10:33 PM Hi, Is a car fitted with an "A" frame a car or is it a trailer, only it always seems that people keep switching backward and forward in there arguments, Is it illegal to make your own trailer ? Is a car fitted with a semi permanent conversion making it into a trailer classed as a trailer, if it is then perhaps we should refer to it as such. What are the European/UK legal regulations covering "Home Made Trailers" and what specific clauses within those regulations do home made trailers need to comply with, or more importantly what clauses within these legal regulations are not met when people make there own "Home Made Trailers" out of there cars and a few metal parts. In the UK it would appear there is no problem with dual purpose, i.e. car and trailer, in Spain as it is illegal to tow a car then it would appear that unless the car was "no longer a car" you could be fined. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I've got an idea!!!!! (!) You know how, in the war, they had inflatable tanks to fool the Germans ... what about 'disguising' the car by making it 'look' like a trailer???? Some sort of inflatable cover, or a rigid box to place over the car, with a trailer board etc ... I've even thought of a 'name' for it ... a Trojan ... just a thought! :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Another Thought. In the UK if you tow a car on an A-frame, the car is then recognised in law as a trailer, and has to comply with trailer regulations. Whats the chance of convincing the Spanish that we are towing a trailer.? (lol) Brian B. ps Perhaps Mel B's suggestion of camouflage is the way to go. :-D as a caravan maybe .!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 While we are in fantasy land ,how about this thought. If a caravan is fitted with motor movers, does it become a powerd vehicle, and therefore possibly illegal to tow in Spain. 8-) Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Mel B - 2011-10-18 6:24 PM I've got an idea!!!!! (!) You know how, in the war, they had inflatable tanks to fool the Germans ... what about 'disguising' the car by making it 'look' like a trailer???? Some sort of inflatable cover, or a rigid box to place over the car, with a trailer board etc ... I've even thought of a 'name' for it ... a Trojan ... just a thought! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Best laugh this week - well done Mel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I have a friend who tows a car behind his Burstner all over Europe, his rational being as he explained, to be able to leave the "van" on site, and go off in the car. Try as I might this is the thing I don't understand, why have ( in his case ) a 60K M/home towing a 5k car, and not a 25K car towing say a 20K caravan, and 20K change in his pocket, and no worries about legality or Insurance issues. This is not to attack those that do, just that the logic mystifies me. Mind you I have toyed with the idea of towing a caravan with our IH PVC to have the best of both worlds, the space of a caravan, but a tow vehicle with all our conveniences with us when out and about, which is the main attraction of a "van" for us as our primary means of transport, but would I have to pay for two pitches I wonder, and of course Aires would be out of the question :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 I would take a book of British law with me and if confronted by some foreign policeman, I could explain to them where their laws are wrong. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike 202 Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Malc, I presume that you are fluent in Spanish to be able to explain the delicate details of English laws to a roadside Spanish policeman. We were stopped twice on the way from France via the Viella tunnel to Lleida and Tarregona. These were real police in riot gear, automatic rifles, 6 Vans and stingers ready to deploy. So we obviously stopped, with no intention of arguing anything. No problems, we just showed our passports to confirm that we were British, in line with our Brit registration plate and wished a safe journey. The Police were, we guessed, acting on info received and looking for something/someone in particular. Still the VERY imposing site of this roadblock did raise the pulse somewhat. And no we did not have an A-frame + car with us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 mike 202 - 2011-10-20 9:18 AM Malc, I presume that you are fluent in Spanish to be able to explain the delicate details of English laws to a roadside Spanish policeman. We were stopped twice on the way from France via the Viella tunnel to Lleida and Tarregona. These were real police in riot gear, automatic rifles, 6 Vans and stingers ready to deploy. So we obviously stopped, with no intention of arguing anything. No problems, we just showed our passports to confirm that we were British, in line with our Brit registration plate and wished a safe journey. The Police were, we guessed, acting on info received and looking for something/someone in particular. Still the VERY imposing site of this roadblock did raise the pulse somewhat. And no we did not have an A-frame + car with us. Hi Mike No, I am not fluent in any other language. Brits don't need to be when abroad. You just shout loudly, but slowly, in English, and they should understand. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Sorry,Off Topic(..but didn't wish to start another A frame thread ;-) ). Out of curiosity,can I just ask,what sort of price is a "decent" A frame installation? (..the ones with the "all singing and dancing" braking systems..and not just a cable yanking on the brake pedal!?).. I can't seem to find any prices on the websites I've looked at.... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Here are some that I have been considering (for UK use, before all the 'anti's' start off again !) http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.com/ http://www.unibrake.co.uk/ http://www.caratow.com/home.php Both of the first ones have electronic braking systems, making the car a 'fully braked trailer' that just 'happens' to have an engine,not so sure about Car-a-tow. Ray The 'Unibrake' website seems to be coming up with 'server errors' so, try this one: http://www.worldofmotorhomes.com/road/boats-trailers-frames/unibrake-towing-systems Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Thanks Ray! ;-) I must be honest,A frames aren't something I'd ever really thought much about until recently(..and I may well've been part of the "I can't see the point" brigade (lol) )..but as the missus IS looking to change her car for something Aygo(esque),then depending on costs,an A frame may be something we'd consider. :-S (..having said that,we may end up only using it a few times,in which case it would also be worth looking a small trailer,as at least that could be dual purpose.. :$ ) Thanks again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Surely what you A frame guys should do is contact your "vans" insurers, and simply pose the question " will I be covered in every eventually if involved in an accident whilst towing an A Frame attached car in the countries you propose going to" I'm sure other folk on this forum would be very interested in the reply, simple really instead of all this pro / anti malarky. After all they are underwriting the risk, if they don't know, who does (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-10-20 6:59 AM I have a friend who tows a car behind his Burstner all over Europe, his rational being as he explained, to be able to leave the "van" on site, and go off in the car. Try as I might this is the thing I don't understand, why have ( in his case ) a 60K M/home towing a 5k car, and not a 25K car towing say a 20K caravan, and 20K change in his pocket, and no worries about legality or Insurance issues. This is not to attack those that do, just that the logic mystifies me. Mind you I have toyed with the idea of towing a caravan with our IH PVC to have the best of both worlds, the space of a caravan, but a tow vehicle with all our conveniences with us when out and about, which is the main attraction of a "van" for us as our primary means of transport, but would I have to pay for two pitches I wonder, and of course Aires would be out of the question :-S I think it unlikely I'll tow a car (never say never) but I have considered it, I would be happy to have my Phaeton on holiday and gf might tie me down and drug me into thinking it would be good to take one of her Heralds, but there's no way I'd tow a caravan with either. I do occasionaly tow a twin axle Bailey (the guest quarters :D ) and the x250 is great for this, much better than a Defender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-10-20 2:53 PM Thanks Ray! ;-) I must be honest,A frames aren't something I'd ever really thought much about until recently(..and I may well've been part of the "I can't see the point" brigade (lol) )..but as the missus IS looking to change her car for something Aygo(esque),then depending on costs,an A frame may be something we'd consider. :-S (..having said that,we may end up only using it a few times,in which case it would also be worth looking a small trailer,as at least that could be dual purpose.. :$ ) Thanks again.... a trailer is good,IF you have the extra space to store it, an 'A' frame can be tucked into the boot of the 'towed' car. Handy though for runs to the 'tip' after pruning the tree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 If anyone is thinking of an A frame then choose one that does not use the eyes that are part of the original body. This is illegal, so I'm informed, as they are only for breakdown recovery trucks to use for tie downs on a truck.The Unibrake system uses this method and is also very expensive for what is basically a "Brake Buddy" with a vaccuum pump added. I've just had an A frame and towbar fitted by Towtal and it's brilliant. You don't even feel that you are towing the car behind you. I took a long time to make up my mind which system to use, but went for the overun brake system. Because if future legislation means this braking system is no longer acceptable \i can have it changed to one that is. As I would still need the A frame anyway. Why spend a lot of money upfront before the legislators have even deliberated on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 thebishbus - 2011-10-18 6:52 PM Another Thought. In the UK if you tow a car on an A-frame, the car is then recognised in law as a trailer, and has to comply with trailer regulations. ... which, as far as I understand things, it doesn't ... *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted October 20, 2011 Share Posted October 20, 2011 Mel B - 2011-10-20 10:15 PM thebishbus - 2011-10-18 6:52 PM Another Thought. In the UK if you tow a car on an A-frame, the car is then recognised in law as a trailer, and has to comply with trailer regulations. ... which, as far as I understand things, it doesn't ... *-)We all know that Mel. But we don't care. But don't tell anyone. :D As it happens, even if it did fully comply I defy anybody to be able to reverse a 7 Mtr motorhome with a 3.5 Mtr car behind it. So you would just unhook the car (30 sec's) and drive it independantly away. The ideal setup for reversing is a very short motor and a very long trailer. Which a M/H + Car certainly isn't. But I'll live with it, for the flexibility it affords to get to all the out of the way places and to be able to explore from cl's and cs's which are usually miles from anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rolandrat Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Some HGV arctic trailers have a rear stear axle fitted which is controled by the fifth wheel and another type which is called castor. The castor needs to be locked up when reversing otherwise it will literally have a mind of its own and the wheels swivel round. The axle that is controled by the fifth wheel reverses in the direction you want to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 peter - 2011-10-20 9:57 PM If anyone is thinking of an A frame then choose one that does not use the eyes that are part of the original body. This is illegal, so I'm informed, as they are only for breakdown recovery trucks to use for tie downs on a truck.... ...I've just had an A frame and towbar fitted by Towtal and it's brilliant. Peter..if i may pick your brains.. :$ Putting aside any of the "brake system,grey areas" for the moment..do the Towtal mounting eyes stay in place,even when system is detached or are they able to be "unwound"..? ...it's just that when we had our bumper fitted by them a while back,the "toads" they had lined up outside,all seemed to have steel eyelets and brackets protruding from the front(...this could of cause,just have been to show what it entailed..)but I was wondering,if it did all stay in place,would this be "legal"? Thanks... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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