Guest peter Posted October 30, 2011 Share Posted October 30, 2011 Personally I couldn't give a toss who is against A Frames, or whether some consider them illegal. I've got one recently and as far as I'm concerned it's the best bit of kit we've bought for the van. As I've previously stated, it allows us to use out of the way uncrowded sites and go off in the small car to discover what's in the neighbourhood with no problems with parking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 As far as France is concerned, UK-based companies Car-a-Tow and Towtal both have offshoots or agents marketing/fitting their overrun-braked A-frame systems. Amusingly (Well I think it's amusing!) this is despite all relevant French authorities advising that, for a French-registered motorhome, A-frame towing conflicts directly with the French Code de la Route. The latter defines specifically what an 'outfit' can comprise and one motor vehicle towing another (on its wheels) is not included. It is allowable under French national law for one motor vehicle to tow another (on its wheels), but only in an emergency situation. As far as I'm aware, nobody in France has explored the legality of a UK-registered motorhome A-frame towing in that country. This may be because it's believed that the practice is fully legal in the UK, so OK elsewhere in the EU (I've seen this said confidently on French motorhome forums), or they just can't be bothered. One interesting varaition I saw several examples of recently was the gens de voyage 'triplex' outfit. This consisted of a large van towing a large caravan towing a neat enclosed trailer containing domestic appliances like a washing-machine and tumble-drier. See the following link: http://www.eddycaravanes.fr/remorque_amenagee_a_vendre.php While reversing any 'duplex' outfit will be trickier than reversing just a single rigid motor vehicle, successfully reversing a 'triplex' would be a whole new ball-game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 All they would need is a 'Merry go Round' and a 'Scammel generator wagon' and the scene would be complete, any Bank holiday on the village square. (lol) Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 peter - 2011-10-30 9:50 PM Personally I couldn't give a toss who is against A Frames, or whether some consider them illegal.... ...yeah,some have probably got you down as a bit of a loose cannon anyhow Peter ;-) ...what with your A frames..and your decanted gas!... (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Hi Yes, I know, Been pulled 3 times in Spain. Never been fined, but I think that is because they could see I was just going to "abandon" the very old car by the roadside!!!! And which is I why I now do my Touring (and towing) in the USA!!! The "A" frame is the most economical and user friendly device known to (motorhome) man. I have never seen any case any where of the "A" frame being resposible for any accident. But several Trailers have turned over or come loose!!!. and caravans do it ALL the time!!! Europe is a complete waste of space, MOSTLY aimed at ripping Brits off. campsite fee`s are extortionate usually for a tiny patch of gravel and a long walk to the "dump" with 5amp electric (if your lucky) and sometimes water close enough to get a hose too. Compare that with out last US camp ground at which had ON PITCH Electric, water, and sewage. and cable t-v. and free wifi. for $24pn (£18aprox) on a touring rate with reduction for long stay. This was in a beautiful Texas state park last March. AND no problem with "A" frames either. Europe is far too bureucratic, with the (non) "civil servants" having too much say in how we spend our lives. Bunch of Bloody "control freaks" the lot of them. Good "rant" gets it out of my system, Now where are my "happy pills" !!!!!! pete AND you can "boondock" on "Government Land" for free too!!!! Overnight on Walmart K mart etc without charge. try doing that In ASDA OR Carrefore!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 I entirely agree with the above: If only the coast of the USA were a short ferry trip away, and Europe a 7 hr. flight. The Intractable problems would be solved straight away. Unfortunately it's the other way around, and as we know after hundreds of years of wars with the rest of Europe, we don't see completely 'Eye to Eye' on MOST subjects. (leaving out the Fact that we drive on the opposite side of the Road, and have no common language). I see no Future for 'US' (Anglo-Saxon English/Celtic Welsh/Celtic Scottish) in the 'EU'. as we just don't 'Fit in'. ;-) Ray And seeing the financial 'Balls Up' that surrounds the single currancy,I am glad we use the pound not the (soon to be defunct) Euro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 PeteH - 2011-10-31 3:42 PM Europe is a complete waste of space, MOSTLY aimed at ripping Brits off. campsite fee`s are extortionate usually for a tiny patch of gravel and a long walk to the "dump" with 5amp electric (if your lucky) and sometimes water close enough to get a hose too. Compare that with out last US camp ground at which had ON PITCH Electric, water, and sewage. and cable t-v. and free wifi. for $24pn (£18aprox) on a touring rate with reduction for long stay. This was in a beautiful Texas state park last March. AND no problem with "A" frames either. The most noticably thing of last years trip to US south west was the extortionant prices charged by most commercial campsites for a 'car park' space with electric/water/sewer, if all campsites in europe where like this we would give up, thankfully there are forest sites which are more to our liking and at an affordable rate, but you only get long drop toilets, and often have to occasionaly find a commercial site to dump the tanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookback Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 peter - 2011-10-30 9:50 PM Personally I couldn't give a toss who is against A Frames, or whether some consider them illegal. I've got one recently and as far as I'm concerned it's the best bit of kit we've bought for the van. As I've previously stated, it allows us to use out of the way uncrowded sites and go off in the small car to discover what's in the neighbourhood with no problems with parking. I agree with you totally Peter. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Have to agree as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The heart of the never-ending A-frame-related debate on UK motorhome forums has never been about safety, convenience, desirability, etc. It's always been about whether towing another motor vehicle on its wheels (other than in an emergency) conflicts with UK towing regulations and, if so, what legal impact this might have if a UK A-frame tower drives in other EU countries that have national laws that specifically prohibit one motor vehicle towing another on its wheels except in an emergency. Personally, I hope that the Spanish and French police institute a vendetta on A-frame towing in those countries with crippling on-the-spot fines. This is not because I'm against the practice, or am vindictive regarding those who choose to do it - I just wish people would shut up about it on UK motorhome forums! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-01 10:15 AM Personally, I hope that the Spanish and French police institute a vendetta on A-frame towing in those countries with crippling on-the-spot fines. This is not because I'm against the practice, or am vindictive regarding those who choose to do it - I just wish people would shut up about it on UK motorhome forums! (lol) (lol) .I actually spat my coffee out then!?..and I've got tears running down my face...Brilliant!!! (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I guess no-one here has any real problems with your innovative attitude to obeying the road traffic laws of other countries if/when you are driving in them - the Police in those other European countries may not be quite so amused by your approach though. In the end, it matters not so long as you either don't use it in all those continental European countries where instead of just being legally a "grey" area, they are specifically outlawed; or you are prepared, when stopped by their Police, to pay the fines for breaking their road traffic laws, and then disconnect and drive the car separately when told to do so. Bottom line: At least people who have read this thread can make a more informed decision about whether or not they are going to break the road traffic laws in Spain by towing a car using one, and understand the increasingly likely, expensive, and inconvenient consequences of being stopped for doing so illegally here. Time to draw a veil over the saga here? ( In edit: This was a reply to the posters above Derek...who nipped in with a wonderfully pithy comment whilst I was typing mine.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Derek, that is the best bit of advice on the whole thread. The whole thing gets bought up more often than a dodgy prawn sandwich, and I for one would like to see the mods, ban any further threads or ressurection of old ones about bloody A Frames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I don't so much mind that people keep asking, because there is always someone new to motorhoming, or the forum, who either hasn't come across A frames before, or who hasn't yet discovered the joys of the "Search" facility. What really irks me is that for some reason this topic invariably degenerates into a pointless and unhelpful slanging match between "pros" and "antis". Newcomers should be warned of the risks. Why does that always provoke ill tempered dissent? It must be very off-putting for newcomers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 All this enlightening stuff may amuse no end of people, but the only purpose of this thread was to enquire whether anyone had personnal experience of being fined for using an A frame to tow a car behind a motorhome. To save me the bother of reading through all six pages of this stuff, can someone give me a quick update - has anyone written in to say that they have been fined, in any country? AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Does it really matter anymore?. What can the o.p do with the information if anybody has? we all know the risk in Spain, so will base a decision to, or not to, tow a car, based on that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosbotham Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-11-01 3:37 PM Newcomers should be warned of the risks. Why does that always provoke ill tempered dissent? Same reason it always provokes someone coming along saying the exercise is pointless and anyone with an a-frame should have a caravan instead. :-> Agree that anyone using an a-frame should be aware of the legal risks, and similarly should be aware of the basic safety checks that'll prevent any chance of their car going up in flames, and aware of the need to engage their insurers on the issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhorsf Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 The Unique Tow-Bars 2 Two-Cars System - Page 1 of 2 Our A-frame is a 100% legal A-Frame towing system. The sturdy but lightweight system dispenses with 50 year old caravan technology in the heavy sliding tow hitch, allowing the tow-car to be reversed easily. http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.com/the_system.php Why has no one challenged these firms claims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shaggy Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 jhorsf - 2011-11-02 2:33 AM The Unique Tow-Bars 2 Two-Cars System - Page 1 of 2 Our A-frame is a 100% legal A-Frame towing system. The sturdy but lightweight system dispenses with 50 year old caravan technology in the heavy sliding tow hitch, allowing the tow-car to be reversed easily. http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.com/the_system.php Why has no one challenged these firms claims? I'd like to know if anyone has been stopped and fined in Europe with a tow bars 2tow cars system fitted, and if so will the company reimburse them after making claims as to being 100% legal throughout Europe. I'd like to see them put their money where there mouth is! Shaggy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 jhorsf - 2011-11-02 2:33 AM The Unique Tow-Bars 2 Two-Cars System - Page 1 of 2 Our A-frame is a 100% legal A-Frame towing system. The sturdy but lightweight system dispenses with 50 year old caravan technology in the heavy sliding tow hitch, allowing the tow-car to be reversed easily. http://www.tow-bars2tow-cars.com/the_system.php Why has no one challenged these firms claims? The website you've referred to provides a convincing argument for the UK legality of their product, so it's not easy to see how one would challenge that claim. There remains the matter of the (possible) legal impact of the towed-car's front-wheel castoring effect on reversing and questions about ABS brakes and the modified car's Type Approval have been raised on this forum, but these are very esoteric points. However, the only people who might choose to 'challenge' such claims must surely be those with a vested interest who currently A-frame tow or are considering doing so, and there seems little likelihood that those folk will react. If it could established with certainty that the Tow-Bars 2 Tow-Cars system is fully UK-legal, then the follow-up question would be whether this would constitute a bomb-proof defence when using that system in countries that (apparently) have a blanket prohibition regarding one motor vehicle towing another except in an emergency. Certainly, if I had been assured (in writing) by Tow-Bars 2 Tow-Cars that I could use their system with legal impunity throughout the EU and I subsequently got fined, I'd sue the company for damages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donna miller Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Therein lies the definative answer then. Obtain written guarantees from the manufacturer of the legality of their product. Perhaps those that have purchased an A frame could then post said guarantee for us all to see, thus ending any further speculation or opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Hi Personally? No longer give a "monkeys" IF you want to "A" frame. which is SAFE, and Environmentally MORE friendly. Then do so! Just be aware that the EU "Crapheads" will "molest" You at some point. ME? I voted with my feet. EU- Non!!! As A certain French President was once regularly heard to say, in reply to any request from Britain to join (his) "Common Market" My Hero!!! Kept us out of the "Crapheap" for years. Salute Le General De Gaul!!!! Finest French (person) Ever!!!! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteH Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Sorry Mate You are on a "hiding to nothing" Why? The UK government are lacking the "cojones" to do anything. the Euro "crapheads" (Civil? servants) don`t care so long as the "gravy train" keeps moving. The Spanish cops are only interested in making money to keep their "Gestapo" afloat (dont forget, the Guardia Civil WAS Franco`s gestapo, and some still think they are) The "legal eagles" are only interested in making big bucks taking on immigration cases (allow more "spongers" into the UK)!! And in any case If you are a "wasp" your an ignored minority!!! Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archiesgrandad Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 S o nobody got fined then? AGD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 Archiesgrandad - 2011-11-02 9:45 PM S o nobody got fined then? AGD Read the thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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