To tow or how to tow, that is the question!!!

[thebishbus]

You know, I have been watching towing debates on various threads for a long time now, and to my mind the most important thing is, (whether declared legal or not in some countrys ), is it safe ?!!!. If it is safe, surely it should be declared legal, if unsafe, then illegal in the EU at least.

It would be interesting to compare accidents rates of towed vehicles by percentages. ie

caravans, trailers, vehicles on A - frames. Then decide to legalise it or not. :-)

Brian B.

[Dave Newell]

Hi Brian, the legality, or otherwise, of using an A frame is not related to safety. The issue is that a car on an A frame doesn't fully comply with UK trailer laws.

 

D.

[tonyg3nwl]

Hi, I too have been watching the debate, particularly the recent postings elsewhere regarding Spain and it's rules

 

I wonder how it can be argued that it is safer to load a car on to a trailer and then have to tow effectively double the weight. How can one ensure that in an emergency, the car can't break away from the trailer, or that the brake efficiency of trailer plus car is superior to car brakes on it's own.

 

In view of ever increasing attempts to decrease fuel consumption, why add a trailer to the equation.

 

I have been a tugger with various caravans during my time, and have always found that the 85% ratio of trailer(caravan) weight to Car weight is a reasonable compromise, but surely the lighter the "trailer" the better for overall safety and control.

 

In France, I am told it is an offence to tow one car with another vehicle unless the tow vehicle uses a rigid tow bar, and the tow vehicle is for example one of the recognised breakdown rescue services.

. My own towrope is therefore redundant.

 

EU rule harmonisation is a major problem and different legal systems between countries doesn't help.

 

We need UK law to have a Precedent case to resolve the legality issue in UK, but won't help until Europe is completely harmonised (not something I wish to see) , So is there anyone out there who will have an accident to enable a case to be use as a precedent.. I hope not, but until one happens, the UK legality issue won't be resolved.

 

tonyg3nwl

[crinklystarfish]

Posing it as a moral or philosophical issue is pretty pointless. There are lots of things of far more significance that should or shouldn’t be happening, but are or aren’t. As we're constantly reminded, the world is powered by idiocy. 

As a solution within current grasp, I maintain that in the huge majority of cases a ‘van towing a car scenario would be far better served by a car towing a caravan scenario. I don’t get, in most cases, why people are so determined to discount the notion that they would, in reality, be far better off with a caravan, or something like a demountable living pod on a pick-up. 

I’m not anti-A frame, nor anti-trailering a car; they are equally, mostly, an illogical solution to a problem that doesn’t really exist. In most cases it’s about being super-honest in evaluating actual needs rather than fulfilling boys-and-toys ‘ultimate rig’ pretentions. 

Speaking of which, how about a big A class motorhome, a panel pan conversion, a smart car, and a motorbike all stuck on the back of an articulated low loader. Sorted!

 

[thebishbus]

Hi Dave. Yes I know that the UK trailer law is the problem, but as I see it at the moment that is just the problem. I presume the UK trailer law is based on safety, but they do move the goal posts.

Some people say that A-frames do comply, some say they do not. What I do not understand,is why we have not had a test case or two, at least that decision would let use know where we stand, and then we would have to see what consequences that had on other countrys.

Brian B.

[tugga]

I know it is not a test case, but on another forum (motorroamers.co.uk) one of the members has a recovery business in Yorkshire. On Sunday (yesterday) they were called out to take away a car being towed on an A Frame behind a motorhome. The organisation that was doing it was VOSA accompanied by the Yorkshire Police. Below is a quote from her post:

 

" If you do tow any trailer over 750kgs make sure it is braked.

 

That includes cars towed by motorhomes - which Police are particularly interested in and many drivers have been caught in Yorkshire. The result three penalty points on the drivers licence and £60? fine.

 

I don't tow behind the motorhome but understand this legislation was coming in 2012 however some Police forces are taking action now..

 

VOSA and the Police were present and it is they that are targeting motorhomes towing cars and have issued the aforementioned penalty.

 

I have posted this information hoping to prevent Roamers suffering a similar penalty in the Yorkshire area "

 

Hope this does NOT put the cat among the pidgeons. 8-)

[thebishbus]

Hi Tugga. This is just what I mean with the confusion and the law. You say if you tow a trailer over 750 kg, make sure that it is braked.

Was this person stopped because he was A-frame towing, or becuse his brakes did not comply with the law. If you speak to salesmen at the shows they say that their new A-frames do comply with the law

What we need is to see if one of these is stopped, then a court case for a decisive ruling.

Brian B.

[thebishbus]

Looking again at Tugga"s post, it looks as though this was a general trailer check , I would suspect that there woulld be some older caravans and trailers that did not comply completely with the latest trailer braking law.

What we really need to know is, did the VOSA check any A-frame towed vehicles and allow them to carry on because they did comply with the regulations. ?

Brian B.

[pepe63xnotuse]

I can never quite understand why those folk who are seriously interested(..rather than just "curious") in the legality or not, of A frames..why,rather than endless bantering on numerous forums,they don't just channel their enquiries at VOSA? :-S

 

(..maybe,it's because they know they may not like the answer they'll get?...maybe..? ;-) )

[tugga]

thebishbus - 2011-10-03 11:00 PM

 

Hi Tugga. This is just what I mean with the confusion and the law. You say if you tow a trailer over 750 kg, make sure that it is braked.

Was this person stopped because he was A-frame towing, or becuse his brakes did not comply with the law. If you speak to salesmen at the shows they say that their new A-frames do comply with the law

What we need is to see if one of these is stopped, then a court case for a decisive ruling.

Brian B.

 

Hi Brian, I don't know the answer to your question i am afraid. I have been back on the motor roamers website and the debate about the legality of A frames is continuing. Having re-read the post again, I gather than the Police/VOSA were only interested in motorhomes towing cars.

 

We have a trailer but I would prefer to tow on an A frame as the trailer is a nuisance to store at home and onsite. I wish this matter was sorted out once and for all, although we mainly prefer to travel without either but sometimes you just need a car.

[aultymer]

pepe63 - 2011-10-04 8:54 AM

 

I can never quite understand why those folk who are seriously interested(..rather than just "curious") in the legality or not, of A frames..why,rather than endless bantering on numerous forums,they don't just channel their enquiries at VOSA? :-S

 

(..maybe,it's because they know they may not like the answer they'll get?...maybe..? ;-) )

 

 

Note on A-Frames and Dollies, issued by the Department for Transport

 

When an "A" frame is attached to a vehicle (e.g. a motor car) and towed by a motor vehicle (e.g. motorhome) we believe the "A" frame and car become a single unit and as such are classified in legislation as a trailer. As a consequence the car and A-frame are required to meet the technical requirements for trailers when used on the road in Great Britain. These requirements are contained within the Road Vehicles (Construction and Use) Regulations 1986 (SI 1986/107 as amended (C&U) and the Road Vehicles Lighting Regulations 1989 (SI 1989/1796) as amended (RVLR).

 

Trailers having a combined axle mass not exceeding 750kg are not required to have brakes fitted. However, if the trailer (regardless of mass) is fitted with a braking system, then all brakes in that system must operate correctly. The regulations do not include design constraints on how this should be achieved but, for example, it could be met by direct linking of the trailer brakes to the brake system of the towing vehicle or by automatic inertia (overrun) operation via the towing hitch. Inertia systems can only be used for trailers with a maximum combined axle mass of 3500kg.

 

Regulations 15 and 16 set out the braking requirements - including minimum braking efficiencies for trailer brakes. Subject to certain age exemptions, the regulation requires the braking system to comply with the construction, fitting and performance requirements of European Community Directive 71/320/EEC along with its various amending Directives. The most recent consolidated directive is 98/12/EC. Alternatively the braking system can comply with the corresponding UNECE Regulation No.13.09.

 

In addition, C&U Regulation 18 requires the braking system to be maintained in good and efficient working order. If the brakes of the towing vehicle do not directly operate the trailer brakes the use of an inertia (overrun) system is acceptable. If the trailer braking system has power assistance (i.e. servo or full power) it is likely that this assistance will be required while in motion to meet the required braking efficiencies. This is because once the vacuum reservoir is depleted it is possible that the brakes will not meet the braking efficiency. To prevent the trailer being used illegally a remote vacuum pump, powered from the tow vehicle, could be installed to recharge the reservoir, alternatively a source could be made available from the tow vehicle. From 1 October 1988 the inertia braking system was required to allow the trailer to be reversed by the towing vehicle without imposing a sustained drag and such devices used for this purpose must engage and disengage automatically. This will be very difficult to achieve on an "A" frame using an inertia (overrun) device.

 

Other provisions from Regulation 15 and Regulation 86A of C&U require the fitting and use of a secondary coupling system in which the trailer is stopped automatically if the main coupling separates whilst the combination is in motion. Alternatively, in the case of trailers up to a maximum mass of 1500kg, the drawbar must be prevented from touching the ground and the trailer able to retain some residual steering.

 

Whilst being towed, trailers are subject to the relevant requirements given in RVLR, including the use of triangular red reflectors. There would be further requirements for the display of the appropriate number plate, etc.

 

The use of "dollies" is intended for the recovery of broken down vehicles, not for the transportation of a vehicle from "A" to "B". Under Regulation 83 of C&U a motor car is permitted to tow two trailers when one of them is a towing implement and the other is secured to and either rests on or is suspended from the implement. Therefore as a trailer if the maximum laden weight of the dolly exceeds 750 kg it must be fitted with operational brakes, additionally the brakes on the wheels of the second trailer (the towed car) must work and meet the specified requirements. Again this would be very difficult for the rear brakes of a motor car, on their own, to meet the 50% braking efficiency required for a trailer. The dolly would also be required by Regulation 22 of C&U to be fitted with suspension. Regulations 19 and 22 in C&U permit a broken down vehicle to be recovered without complying with these requirements. However, there is further legislation under the Road Traffic Act that introduces a limitation on the maximum speed that the combination can be driven; this is 40mph on motorways and 20mph on other roads.

 

We do not supply copies of legislation but I have included some information on various sources where they can be obtained. If you would like to purchase printed copies of Statutory Instruments these are available from TSO:

 

The Stationery Office Tel:

PO Box 29 Fax: 0870 600 5533

St Crispins e-mail: book.orders@tso.co.uk

Duke Street online ordering: www.tso.co.uk/bookshop

Norwich NR3 1GN

 

Alternatively you can consult "The Encyclopaedia of Road Traffic Law and Practice" published by Sweet and Maxwell. This publication is updated regularly and is available in most city reference libraries.

 

EU Directives can be found at:

http://europa.eu.int/eur-lex/en/search/search_lif.html

 

UN-ECE Regulations can be found at: http://www.unece.org/trans/main/wp29/wp29regs.html

 

 

Alan Mendelson

Primary Safety Branch

Department for Transport

Reply With Quote

[colin]

tugga - 2011-10-04 10:10 AM

 

thebishbus - 2011-10-03 11:00 PM

 

Hi Tugga. This is just what I mean with the confusion and the law. You say if you tow a trailer over 750 kg, make sure that it is braked.

Was this person stopped because he was A-frame towing, or becuse his brakes did not comply with the law. If you speak to salesmen at the shows they say that their new A-frames do comply with the law

What we need is to see if one of these is stopped, then a court case for a decisive ruling.

Brian B.

 

Hi Brian, I don't know the answer to your question i am afraid. I have been back on the motor roamers website and the debate about the legality of A frames is continuing. Having re-read the post again, I gather than the Police/VOSA were only interested in motorhomes towing cars.

 

We have a trailer but I would prefer to tow on an A frame as the trailer is a nuisance to store at home and onsite. I wish this matter was sorted out once and for all, although we mainly prefer to travel without either but sometimes you just need a car.

 

 

I'm not registered so can't see the thread, but if the A frame is unbraked it is illegal except for recovery, this is no new law. We have had some one on here posting about using a recovery A frame, they had no idea it was illegal, unfortunaty there are idiots like this http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-CAR-RECOVERY-FRAME-TOWING-DOLLY-TRAILER-3-5Ton-/320729457211?pt=UK_Recovery_Tools&hash=item4aacf7223b who state thier A frame is legal to use by motorhomers when they clearly arn't

 

p.s. that was a clever bit of censoring of my post, I used a much stronger term than 'idiots'

[aultymer]

pepe63 - 2011-10-04 8:54 AM

 

I can never quite understand why those folk who are seriously interested(..rather than just "curious") in the legality or not, of A frames..why,rather than endless bantering on numerous forums,they don't just channel their enquiries at VOSA? :-S

 

(..maybe,it's because they know they may not like the answer they'll get?...maybe..? ;-) )

 

Copied from another motorhome site:-

 

From: TAMM Pia [mailto:pia.tamm@europarl.europa.eu]

Sent: Thu 14/07/2011 10:43

To: David Buckland

Subject: RE: british style m.o.t

Dear Mr Buckland,

Thank you for your email.

According to council directive 96/967EC:

"The frequency of the tests varies according to vehicle type:

a) light commercial vehicles and private cars: the first test takes place four years after the vehicle was first put into service, and thereafter every two years;

b) other vehicles: the first test is carried out one year after the vehicle was first put into service, and thereaftAer annually."

In regard to the A-frame question the Commission replied to me that:

"There exist no specific harmonised technical provisions concerning a vehicle combination made up of a motor vehicle towing another motor vehicle. This is dealt with by the national legislation of the Member States.

Annex 5 to the ‘Convention of Vienna On Road Traffic ’ of 8th November 1968 lays down specific technical provisions concerning vehicle combinations in international traffic; however, these provisions apply stricto sensu to a vehicle combination made up of a motor vehicle and “a trailer designed to be coupled to a motor vehicle”. According to the Convention of Vienna, Contracting Parties may, with respect to motor vehicles which they register and to trailers which they allow on the road under their domestic legislation, lay down rules which “supplement, or are stricter than the provisions of this Annex [Annex 5]”. Subject to these provisions, “all vehicles in international traffic must meet the technical requirements in force in the country of registration”.

According to the British authorities, a passenger car towed by a motor caravan with an “A-frame” would be classified in the United Kingdom as a four-wheeled-trailer and as such it would have to meet the construction requirements of a trailer, amongst other things those concerning the braking and the lighting. However, the adaptations necessary for it to meet these requirements are not subject to any particular check by the authorities and, it is therefore the responsibility of the owner of the towing vehicle to ensure that the combination complies with the legislation.

According to previous questions received in the past on the same subject I can inform you that this stance is not shared by all the Member States.

Therefore, if your constituent is planning to circulate on the roads on the continent, it is strongly advisable that he contacts the competent authorities in the crossed or visited countries to ascertain that there will be no problem when towing a vehicle with an A-frame."

Kind regards,

Pia Tamm

Assistant to Daniel Hannan MEP

 

Hope this is of help for anyone out there.

 

Does that help you pepe63?

[mel wood]

sometimes you just need a car.

 

 

.........or a van that is big enough to live in but small enough to use as a touring or an everyday vehicle!!!!

 

 

 

Please don't take this as a criticism just a different point of view.

 

Each to his/her own way of motorhoming or caravanning but I have never understood why those with motorhomes and towed cars have such units rather than a car and a caravan. Perhaps someone will enlighten me.

[Rayjsj]

mel wood - 2011-10-04 4:02 PM

 

sometimes you just need a car.

 

 

.........or a van that is big enough to live in but small enough to use as a touring or an everyday vehicle!!!!

 

 

 

Please don't take this as a criticism just a different point of view.

 

Each to his/her own way of motorhoming or caravanning but I have never understood why those with motorhomes and towed cars have such units rather than a car and a caravan. Perhaps someone will enlighten me.

 

I'll try, Towing a caravan, which is often 85% of the weight of the towing vehicle, is not a pleasant experience (in my experience anyway !) even with a good working stabiliser, an overtaking fast juggernaut , a downhill gradient with a crosswind , or a sudden accidental twitch of the steering ALL can set up a 'Snake' which apart from being VERY scary can be difficult to control and escape from.

A small car towed behind a motorhome (on a 'Braked' A-frame) will probably be no more than 30% the weight of the towing vehicle, a much more 'comfortable' and safe arrangement, as it is travelling on 4 wheels it is more stable, And PROVIDING the car vacuum cylinder is kept charged and the braking linked to the towing vehicle the unit is more stable than a 'Car/Caravan' combination.

 

SO, you have a 'stable' unit to tow, AND a 'runabout' to use when onsite, the 'Runabout' can be your everyday use car, so more economical than a 'Beefy Tow-car' to use everyday.

It Does make sense, it's just differant. Now if only we can get properly braked A-frames made Legal in the UK, I'll go out and buy one. (it's only the uncertainty that's holding me back,) I don't want a trailer or a caravan having had and sold both in the past.

[aultymer]

[

 

Each to his/her own way of motorhoming or caravanning but I have never understood why those with motorhomes and towed cars have such units rather than a car and a caravan. Perhaps someone will enlighten me.

 

Because I am sh1t scared of ending up with my towcar turned over by the caravan - seen it twice and it is not nice.

[thebishbus]

Right then. Reading through all the regulations, it seems that we can have a legal A-frame system. I see that the A-frame itself is legal, but it must comply with the trailer braking regulations.

1 Keep the car vacuum braking working. Could that be a removable snap in hose between the Motorhome and the car.?

2 A 12 volt solenoid operated slide bolt , to lock the overrun off, when reverse is selected in the Motorhome. Seems feasible to me.

Brian B.

or perhaps we have something like this already. ?

[tugga]

We only use our car & trailer when we are going to be somewhere for more than 4 nights. It is easier to tow a car behind a motorhome than to tow a caravan behind a car. Sometimes Britains lanes are just not suitable for a 6.5 m motorhome, plus some pubs/restaurants dont have the facility for us to park in their car parks. Also if you want to do a bit of touring around, where do you park your motorhome? Car parks have height barriers and notices saying no motorhomes or campervans parking here. Would you want a strangers motorhome parked outside your house for hours on end? Most people would say no, especially if they live by the sea.

 

We do like to take our bikes with us as much as possible cycle, but neither of us are particularly fit so we do not venture too far which makes our trips limiting.

 

We all camp in our own way I guess, which is just how it should be, as it would not be very good if we were all the same. :-D

[thebishbus]

Hi again. I have just been looking at the Smart-Tow.com website. It looks as though their system complies with the trailer regulations. Maybe there are others out there also.

Brian B.

ps and no need for overrun brakes.

[Guest JudgeMental]

So these brackets fitted to bumper (crumple zone - pedestrians safety?) and the strengthening behind them, dont they do away with the crash/accident resistance that the car was designed with? Are they tested? CE mark, TUV, VOSA etc...Probably not because not a chance of being approved IMO

 

if you injured anyone with this arrangement fitted to your car, I would have not a bit of sympathy if you were sued for every bean you had....

[thebishbus]

Now here"s a thought. If my reading of Smart Tows website is correct, and this system COMPLIES WITH UK LAW, Why not make this system of A- frame towing officially legal in the UK. That should take away the legality concern off drivers here. And who knows, perhaps that may make other EU countries recognise that this type of A-frame towing is legal ,for UK citizens at least.

Brian B.

[thebishbus]

Hey Judge, what about the poor cyclist that runs into the back of your van and gets badly injured on the untested elecrtic bike hook up there. 8-)

Brian B

[Guest JudgeMental]

thebishbus - 2011-10-05 8:38 AM

 

Hey Judge, what about the poor cyclist that runs into the back of your van and gets badly injured on the untested elecrtic bike hook up there. 8-)

Brian B

 

The bike rack is tested and approved, fit for purpose, and carrys warning signs.....And is not a gerry built, unforgiving steel structure designed to take pedestrians out below knee level *-)

 

I thought ALL wheels have to be braked on a trailer

[rolandrat]

I have towed legally a 4.5ton turntable a-framed trailer equipped with air brakes. The trailer was manufactured by Lynton Commercial Units in Gorton Manchester. The towing vehicle was a Landrover Discovery supplied by Special Types equipped with an Air brake system that worked in conjunction with the normal Hydraulic system. It would stop dead if necessary. I think if turntable trailers were offered on the open market to transport small cars they would be the safest on the road. All that would be needed would be a coversion kit for the air brake system to be fitted to the motorhome..Reversing them would take a novice some time to master but with time and expert tuition it can be done.

[thebishbus]

All wheels are braked with the Smart system Judge. Have a look at their website, very interesting.