Gas cylinder refilling

[Guest peter]

Plagiarised this from my boat forum.

 

I’m sure there will be howls of disapproval from some quarters but, following the threads about DIY filling of gas bottles, I thought I would do a little experimenting. This summarises what I have found so far;

 

1. Thanks to VicS (I think it was him) who gave the initial lead. He recommended getting components from www.BES.co.uk. I found their prices to be good and the service quick and efficient.

2. There is a brief but helpful write up in Nigel Calder’s book and a fair number of websites give information on the process.

3. You need the right adapters on both cylinders. It is not advisable to fill via regulators; they are not designed to do this job.

4. I used high pressure hose assemblies, made up with proper crimped fittings. These are designed to work at up to 17.5 bar. Low pressure hose has a maximum working pressure of 50mbar. The difference is so great that it was an easy decision which to go for.

5. For filling 904/907 cylinders I used BES part number 16643

6. For the supply cylinder, which was a 15kg bottle, I used a 16642 clip on adapter. Other bottles may need a different adapter.

7. Connect both bottles with a 16712 hose. Take care with the hose; the sealing rings in both fittings have a habit of falling out.

8. The procedure was to connect hoses and adapters. Fit onto the supply bottle, and then briefly open the cock at the other end to purge the line of air. Fit the assembly onto the bottle that is being filled.

9. Turn the supply bottle upside down and place it so that it is higher than the bottle which is being filled.

10. Turn the cock on. (Obvious really!)

11. Nigel Calder says that it is a slow process. He is right. I was surprised that it took about 40 minutes to fill the bottle.

12. Weigh the bottle to make sure that it is not overfilled. I deliberately left mine slightly under filled.

 

Result. Easier than I expected.

 

Savings. The 15kg gas bottle cost me £33. A refill of the 904 cylinder (1.8 kg) would have cost £22 at my local supplier. It cost me £4 to DIY.

A 907 bottle would cost £6 to fill.

The bits cost £17+VAT and delivery.

 

Conclusion. The small cylinders are so ridiculously expensive this pays for itself in no time at all! I’m going to do a bit more work and, frankly, I need to also check if this is legal, but I promise that it won't be done when I'm parked near you!

 

All offered in the spirit of sharing information, If you don’t want to try it then I really don’t mind!

 

There's a very interesting thread on it here.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=264339

And continued more recently here.

http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?t=291347

 

Should get the scaremongers among us quivering over their keyboards. :D

[BGD]

Good post Peter.

 

I hear that a lot of people do this in Spain too, although gas is not so stupidly expensive here yet).

 

We pay about 13.20 euros ( about 12 quid) for an exchange butano bottle that contains 13kgs of gas (that's the orange Repsol ones, for anyone who knows the ones I'm on about) here in Spain.

[Guest peter]

You're lucky having gas at that price Bruce. We aren't known as rip off britain for nought. :D

But I do use camping gaz 907 bottles for my boat and my barbecue, so will investigate refilling them as they are an eyewatering £23 a pop to exchange and for only 4.5Kgs of gas.

[pepe63xnotuse]

To be honest,if for some reason I had a need to regularly refill the small "gaz" cylinders(..and they were my only option),then I'd probably look at "decanting" from a donor bottle... ;-)

 

My concern is if/when folk use "adaptors" to refill or worse still "top-up",their exchange cylinders at service stations....8-)

 

As I've said before...half the motorists out their can't even pump their tyres up correctly.... *-)

 

..and one thing I think we have to be careful of when posting about stuff like this,is that it may in some way "normalize" the pratice...and anyone new to MHing reading it may just take it as "the done thing"....

[hallii]

I filled my Gaz (907 and others) cylinders for years like this, to speed the filling up a bit vent the cylinder to be filled (in the open air,of course) until no more gas comes out, then pour a kettle of hot water over it and wait a few minutes. Then close the valve, this creates a small vacuum which sucks liquid gas in for a while, then it's over to gravity.

 

Make sure the adapter you fit to the larger cylinder does not have a non return valve in it, it becomes very slow then!

 

Do it outdoors and remember leaking gas can travel along the ground and into hollows etc. on still days, make sure there are no sources of ignition around.

 

Maybe once every 5 years pay through the nose and exchange the Gaz cylinder, then you have an inspected and refurbished cylinder for the next 5 years.

 

H

[Guest Peter James]

pepe63 - 2011-10-27 9:05 AM

 

To be honest,if for some reason I had a need to regularly refill the small "gaz" cylinders(..and they were my only option),then I'd probably look at "decanting" from a donor bottle... ;-)

 

My concern is if/when folk use "adaptors" to refill or worse still "top-up",their exchange cylinders at service stations....8-)

 

As I've said before...half the motorists out their can't even pump their tyres up correctly.... *-)

 

..and one thing I think we have to be careful of when posting about stuff like this,is that it may in some way "normalize" the pratice...and anyone new to MHing reading it may just take it as "the done thing"....

 

I agree wholeheartedly.

I fill my 907 cylinders from a calor cylinder, but have changed my mind about recommending it to others, because after reading some of the comments on othe forums its obvious some of them don't understand what they are doing.

in particular,

OVERFILLING THE RECEIVING CYLINDER COULD BE CATASTROPHIC.

 

[pkc]

Good post Peter, I have saved the info for possible future use.

Perhaps a stronger ' Don't try this at home children ! ' warning would be appropriate.

Take care, If we don't hear from you again I for one will miss your acerbic wit

:-)

[thebishbus]

If you had a friend with a refillable system, could you not refill from his bottle at an even lower price. ?

Brian B.

[Dave Newell]

Gaz bottles hold butane normally and it is stored at 28 psi compared to propane which is stored at 100psi. DO NOT PUT PROPANE INTO BUTANE CYLINDERS!

 

D.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I must confess I have never understood why you cannot take your existing bottles to be re-filled at premises that have a bulk supply, whatever brand they are, oh well.............

[Guest peter]

pkc - 2011-10-27 12:40 PM

 

Good post Peter, I have saved the info for possible future use.

Perhaps a stronger ' Don't try this at home children ! ' warning would be appropriate.

Take care, If we don't hear from you again I for one will miss your acerbic wit

:-)

Don't worry you can't get rid of me that easily. In any case if anybody reading my original post took the time to read the posts on the links I provided there are plenty of warnings in there and if anybody can't understand them, then they shouldn't even think about doing it as it is extremely dangerous if suitable care is not taken. Most people wouldn't even think about trying it anyway.

But for anybody thinking of doing this. READ THE WHOLE OF THE THREAD IN THE LINKS PROVIDED.

I have not made and will not make any recomendation for ayone to refill their own cylinders.

I will, but that is my choice and as I have the relevant common sense and engineering experience to know what I am doing, Plus I do not live in built up area, so any possible gas leakage will not be a hazard to anyone elses property.

I made the original post to be of interest only, and only the readers can make the judgement of whether they have the ability to do it safely.

What more can I say.

[Guest peter]

Edit....... double post, server playing up again.

 

 

Whoever said this forum is better spoke too soon.

[Guest Peter James]

Dave Newell - 2011-10-27 5:47 PM

 

Gaz bottles hold butane normally and it is stored at 28 psi compared to propane which is stored at 100psi. DO NOT PUT PROPANE INTO BUTANE CYLINDERS!

 

D.

 

Thats another thing to take into account, but the max pressure should be stamped on an unstressed part of the cylinder - in the case of Camping Gaz 907 that is 30 bar so well within the vapor pressure of propane. I would be more concerned with the capacity, also stamped on the base support of the 907 cylinder which is 2.5kg propane, or 3kg butane. - because propane is lighter. I believe the greatest danger is the donor cylinder being overfilled, so its full of liquid (which cannot be further compressed) then put in a warm place, the liquid expands, and bursts the cylinder.

 

Propane: – at 15 deg C vapor pressure 7.5 bar, density 0.512 (water = 1.000)

Butane: – at 15 deg C vapor pressure 2 bar, density 0.575 (water = 1.000)

Source: http://www.calor.co.uk/customer-services/lpg-safety/data-sheets/

 

I put propane into 907 cylinders, because it vapourises at lower temperatures than butane, but am very careful not to overfill them. I check them by weight like the professionals do, (so need to be very aware that propane is lighter than butane) then as a final check swill them from side to side to make sure you can feel the liquid slopping about, denoting a good gas filled expansion space inside.

[Guest Peter James]

1footinthegrave - 2011-10-27 7:32 PM

 

I must confess I have never understood why you cannot take your existing bottles to be re-filled at premises that have a bulk supply, whatever brand they are, oh well.............

 

Thats what they do at hardware shops in Spain, where i have got unsealed refilled Camping Gaz 907 cylinders for 10.5 Euro, instead of £22-£30 here. The Spanish ones must have propane in, because the flame burns fiercer at low temperatures. Not so bovvered about 'elf & safety over there ;-)

[Uncle Bulgaria]

I think we should be very careful when discussing filing pressurised cyliders with a highly flamable and potentially explosive gas using self-designed and validated processes and systems. Some people will undoubtedly know what they are doing, and will understand and apply sound engineering practice, but others who do not will think they can do it too. I use Gaslow refillable cylinders and they and the filling system are designed and validated to meet technical standards. There have been reports about some garages refusing to allow the refilling of cylinders on grounds of safety. I don't know whether these were of the Gaslow type or some DIY arrangement. But, If there was a serious incident where an uncertified DIY system failed and serious injury or loss arose, we might all find ourselves unable to refill our gas cyliders even if using a properly designed, certified and professionally installed system.

 

Richard.

[ips]

Fully agree with uncle bulgaria

 

The thought of folk filling there own gas bottles on garage forecourts with bits cobbled together scares me. Surely if was safe it would be legal, and I assume that its not legal as the bottle you are filling is only on loan.

Dont know what some of you lot use your gas for because we only get through a couple of bottles a year so in our case not worth the hassle for a few quid saving.

[Guest Peter James]

ips - 2011-10-28 11:56 AM

 

Fully agree with uncle bulgaria

 

The thought of folk filling there own gas bottles on garage forecourts with bits cobbled together scares me. Surely if was safe it would be legal, and I assume that its not legal as the bottle you are filling is only on loan.

Dont know what some of you lot use your gas for because we only get through a couple of bottles a year so in our case not worth the hassle for a few quid saving.

 

I am far more concerned with safety than legality, but since it has been mentioned so many times, its not illegal to refill Camping Gaz cylinders, you buy them and can do what you like with them.

Other companies, like Calor, get some of their customers to sign a hire agreement to say they will not refill their (Calor) cylinders. But you are not refilling the Calor cylinder, you are emptying it (into someone elses cylinder) and there nothing in the contract to say you can't empty them

 

I use 907 camping gaz cylinders with a single ring screwed in the top, rather than any other type of cooker in a vehicle, because its safer - no pipes or regulators that might leak. But when you see what they charge for exchange camping gaz cylinders, the gas works out at about 4 times the cost of gas in exchange calor cylinders, and no one likes to be taken for a mug.

I also like to use propane, as it vapourises better at low temperatures. Camping gaz butane becomes virtually useless when the temperature of the cylinder drops below about 5 degrees C.

[Mel B]

Whilst there are quite a few things I would do that others wouldn't, I only do them after a sensible 'think' about the safety aspects of it and whether any perceived risks were acceptable and minimised.

 

This, practice is, however, one thing I would NOT even think of attemping. It is bad enough filling our Gaslow bottle using the correct equipment and taking sensible precautions to ensure it is as safe as possible, but to do what is being suggested with highly volatile gas to me is just plain daft! It isn't like electricity where you can flip a switch to turn it off ... once it has 'escaped' you are at at it's mercy - it's like the genie who, once out of the bottle, cannot be put back ....

 

Speaking from personal experience of having a 5ft 'blow torch' in our camper from a leaking gas pipe (dealer installed) where the gas self-ignited somehow (no flame or anything nearby), I can assure you I have very great respect for gas and gas appliances and I suggest that some others need to have a serious think about what they are doing. I think that the risks involved in this practice are far above what you would normally deem to be acceptable so why do it for the sake of saving a bit of gas?????

 

http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/home/man-severely-burned-in-gas-cylinder-explosion-in-bekasi/393600

 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/2336389/Men-burnt-while-filling-gas-bottles

 

 

[terryW]

Peter James - 2011-10-27 9:22 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-10-27 7:32 PM

 

I must confess I have never understood why you cannot take your existing bottles to be re-filled at premises that have a bulk supply, whatever brand they are, oh well.............

 

Thats what they do at hardware shops in Spain, where i have got unsealed refilled Camping Gaz 907 cylinders for 10.5 Euro, instead of £22-£30 here. The Spanish ones must have propane in, because the flame burns fiercer at low temperatures. Not so bovvered about 'elf & safety over there ;-)

 

The camp shop on the Spanish site we use in the summer is said to refill from his bulk tank out the back and the contents is variable. So I have been told.

[Guest Peter James]

Uncle Bulgaria - 2011-10-28 11:46 AM

 

I think we should be very careful when discussing filing pressurised cyliders with a highly flamable and potentially explosive gas using self-designed and validated processes and systems. Some people will undoubtedly know what they are doing, and will understand and apply sound engineering practice, but others who do not will think they can do it too. I use Gaslow refillable cylinders and they and the filling system are designed and validated to meet technical standards. There have been reports about some garages refusing to allow the refilling of cylinders on grounds of safety. I don't know whether these were of the Gaslow type or some DIY arrangement. But, If there was a serious incident where an uncertified DIY system failed and serious injury or loss arose, we might all find ourselves unable to refill our gas cyliders even if using a properly designed, certified and professionally installed system.

 

Richard.

 

All these cylinders are designed to be refilled. The differerence with Gaslow is they have an internal tap operated by a float, so when the liquid reaches a certain level the float cuts off the supply - just like the float in a toilet cistern. Conventional cylinders don't have this mechanism so you need another way of determining when the cylinder has been filled to its maximum safe capacity. The professionals do it by weighing the cylinder. So do I. I also check its not overfilled by shaking the cylinder to feel the liquid slopping from side to side, making certain there is an expansion space. This must be safer than filling a Gaslow and relying on the float mechanism to cut off the supply. What if the float mechanism fails, like a toilet cistern does sometimes?

[Mel B]

What you seem to forget though is that every time you exchange a cylinder for a refilled one, the refilled one has been fully tested before it was filled by the supplier, this isn't something which you can do is it? :-S

 

It is your life to do with as you will ... hopefully you won't end up being injured or worse ... :-|

[Ian0354]

Mel B - 2011-10-29 7:14 PM

 

What you seem to forget though is that every time you exchange a cylinder for a refilled one, the refilled one has been fully tested before it was filled by the supplier, |

 

Can you produce a link showing this to be the case, please? Or do you mean that the cylinder has a date stamped proving it's useful life?

 

Thanks.

[pepe63xnotuse]

To be fair Mel,I don't think that cylinder are "fully tested" prior to being refilled and sent back out...

I'm sure I've read it on here somewhere(..by someone who used to work at a gas depot maybe?).

..and after all,refillable cylinders & tanks don't get tested at each refill do they.......

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

All this potential hassle and very real danger to yourself and others, to save how much exactly in the grand scheme of things ??????? sorry but I think anyone attempting or doing this is bonkers, and don't get me wrong I'll take on most things.

Just get a refillable bottle..................

 

[ips]

my tthoughts exactly i couldnt be bothered with the hasstle