Guest peter Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Mel B - 2011-10-31 6:18 PM peter - 2011-10-30 9:11 PM Ian03/54 - 2011-10-29 8:28 PM Mel B - 2011-10-29 7:14 PM What you seem to forget though is that every time you exchange a cylinder for a refilled one, the refilled one has been fully tested before it was filled by the supplier, | Can you produce a link showing this to be the case, please? Or do you mean that the cylinder has a date stamped proving it's useful life? Thanks.Of course she can't. Gee-wiz Peter, thanks for that, why don't you just call me a liar! 8-) I KNOW I read an article on it, and assumed it was in the MMM mag, but maybe it was in the Caravan Club mag or one of the others I've read ... I shall make a point of finding it just for you!!!! :->If there is one person on here that I would not call or imply that they were a liar Mel it's you. I do admit that I did word it badly. What I actually meant was that you were maybe mistaken. As has been illustrated by the later post from Derek Uzell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Having just had a Gaslow system fitted and done our first refill I thought I would look around to see what other peoples experiences of the system and refill operation were...hence I came across this thread. Whilst I don't deny anyone the right to 'experiment' I find the whole idea of a 'Heath Robinson' (as in home designed) refill system scary. In the early 70's I was trained in the bulk handling of liquid oxygen/liquid nitrogen/ propane and butane. During the course, under controlled conditions we were shown what happens for each and every gas if you don't respect it.....the results were terrifying. Regarding propane: Its boiling point is -44°F (-42°C)....it changes from liquid to gas. Expansion rate = 270:1 (expands in volume 270 times from liquid to ambient pressure vapour). Liquid propane vaporizes quickly and will cause extreme frostbite if it touches your body. A flash ignition will be like an explosion and might take you and your bottle with it.....not to mention whatever else is in the vicinity. Get it wrong and it will bite you big time. Leaking liquid onto your skin will give you a 'cold burn' (which is very serious...imagine instant frostbite of the nth degree) and then you have to hope the rapidly expanding gas does not ignite. Over fill the bottle and you are travelling with a potential bomb. Just my 2d input folks but if you want to 'play' with gas to save a few ££'s I hope it's not while I am around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Why waste your breath,or rather your typing finger, is all I can say after reading some of the vitriolic replies from certain parties................. :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-10-31 10:25 PM Why waste your breath,or rather your typing finger, is all I can say after reading some of the vitriolic replies from certain parties................. :-S 1foot..if my well intentioned input stops someone having a close call or nasty accident ...especially near me...then it's worth the one finger typing time.... ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 No offence was intended, and yes for sure your contribution may well stop some in their tracks. But I think the OP's mind is made up, and he promised not to do it anywhere near "us" so I guess if he wants to run the risk of blowing himself up, who are we to stand in his way. And after some of his comments directed at a few on here, the sentiment "It could not happen to a nicer bloke" may be appropriate :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I would have thought that the potential dangers involved in refilling gas-bottles not designed to be refilled by 'amateurs' should be self-evident but, if people are attracted by the idea, it's surely sensible that they obtain accurate information on how the task(s) may be performed at minimum risk. Peter's method of decanting LPG from one bottle to another is well established and it's been discussed on the forum in the past. One obvious application is when someone chooses to go abroad regularly with full UK exchange-only cylinders and comes back with the bottles not completely empty. Plainly, if one can refill a single bottle using the contents of the partially-filled bottles, there's a significant financial gain to be made. If you use properly-engineered connectors, a suitably tough hose and carry out the decanting procedure in a safe place, the risk of an accident should be low. If you are a dope, then you'll be deservedly competing for a Darwin Award. Regarding refilling exchange-only propane bottles with Autogas, this is potentially more dangerous than decanting as it will normally be carried out with time constraints and, when anything is done in a hurry, the risk factor increases. Refilling a standard UK propane bottle will involve connecting the bottle's outlet to the Autogas pump's filler-nozzle via a suitable adapter and opening the bottle's outlet-valve. If the filler-nozzle hasn't attached properly to the bottle's outlet, or disconnects from the outlet during the refilling process, there will be nothing to stop propane gas vapour from blasting out through the bottle's outlet-valve. (I know of two occasions when this has happened and there's not a lot one can do to guard against it.) This is where the user-refillable bottle with a separate filling-point scores - if the Autogas filler-nozzle isn't properly attached to (or comes off) the filling-point, then the one-way valve in the bottle's filling-inlet will prevent gas from coming back out of the bottle. You definitely need to beware of this risk if you use the type of 'plastic' user-refillable bottle that used to be marketed by MTH Autogas, though the recently introduced "Safefill" plastic bottle apparently has a one-way valve that should prevent bottle 'blow back'. Even if you've got a bottle with a one-way valve in the filling inlet, there's still the potential for gas to escape via the Autogas pump's filler-nozzle if the latter isn't tightly attached to the vehicle's filling-point. The risk of this happening is really no greater than when a vehicle's LPG tank is being refilled, but it's worth keeping in mind. If you hear this loud hissing noise when you are holding down the Autogas pump's operating button, then the filler-nozzle is probably not properly connected to the filling-point and you'd better take your hand off the button pretty damned quick! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 ...having thought about this a little more..I think I've changed my view *slightly*... IF for arguements sake,I worked somewhere that sold Calor type cylinders and that had a stores/workshop equipped with all the fittings/hoses etc.. and people were bringing gas bottles back in that weren't completely empty..then I would perhaps see the "temptation" to arm myself with a suitable hose/adaptor and "decant" the "paid for" gas.. :$ HOWEVER...if I wasn't in that position(and I'm not! ;-) ) and I was only going to be decanting "my own" gas anyway,then instead of spending on hoses and adaptors,I'd probably just be looking at swapping the reg' on my Gaz appliance so that it could use a "Calor" bottle.... I realise that people have different requirements/appliances,so the above ramblings are only my non-judgemental view.. ;-) ..and at the end of it all,as I said before,we're probably just likely to get injured by folk fumbling at the lpg pumps on service station forecourts..or even just when they're changing cylinders on site(..with their arthritic fingers struggling with these "Oh! I don't need a spanner" hand-wheel hoses!?) :-S Which ever you do...be careful ;-) Edit: Sorry Derek U....I didn't see your post... Off topic this bit.. :$ Not having a refillable system myself,can I just ask...is the "filler" side of things not isolated by a physical,hand-wheel type shut off valve?...or,as it appears,is it just a "self-sealing" valve?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-11-01 9:28 AM ...Not having a refillable system myself,can I just ask...is the "filler" side of things not isolated by a physical,hand-wheel type shut off valve?...or,as it appears,it there just a "self-sealing" valve?... There's just a one-way valve on the filling side, with a hand-wheel-type shut-off valve on the outlet. You can see this on the following: http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/pdf/GaslowRefillableCylinderFittingInstructions.pdf Peter's original posting related to refilling Campingaz cylinders for use on a boat where (presumably) limited space prevents him accommodating a large Calor cylinder. As the price by unit-volume of 'bottled gas' decreases as the bottle-capacity increases, if your motorhome can only accommodate very small capacity bottles, then (as Peter says) the financial saving from 'decanting' from a large-capacity bottle will quickly recover the cost of any adapters/hoses required to carry out the process. (It would be interesting to know what Calor - and other bottled-gas suppliers - do with returned gas bottles that aren't completely empty. I've always assumred that such bottles are fully emptied before being refilled, but I've not read anything to confirm this.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 To be completely fair I guess if you are running a Mercedes LeVoyageur 6 series, and a boat you need to make economies somewhere. I know nothing about boating but how does any leaked gas escape with no drop vents, or does it all build up in the bilge till bang ! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Thanks Derek...I see now,so if that self-sealing valve doesn't ...well...self seal...then it'll spit it's contents over the forecourt..?! Blimey... 8-) (..they probabIy don't fail but I think I'd prefer a manual valve as well...) I did toy with the idea of a refillable sysytem...but luckily our van can take the 13kg Calor cylinders(..which virtually halved our gas costs),so we didn't bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derek pringle Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Hi I would have thought that if the reason for the decanting was to enable the use of a 907 cyl. for a barbecue that the fitting of a bbq point would sort the problem out, thus alleviating the taking of any risk, no matter how small the risk is perceived by the individual. To be fair, to say the task would be done 'well away from others' indicates to me a sense of risk to people. cheers derek Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The fact that you need to weigh the cylinders to determine how much you have put in would be the worry for me, sorry it all sounds very desperate, and to save how much in the grand scheme of things........................ :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-11-01 10:10 AM To be completely fair I guess if you are running a Mercedes LeVoyageur 6 series, and a boat you need to make economies somewhere. I know nothing about boating but how does any leaked gas escape with no drop vents, or does it all build up in the bilge till bang ! (lol) There are ''marine lockers' designed specifically to house LPG gas bottles. These can accommodate bottles from Campingaz 902 size right up to 13kg Calor. The locker is essentially a plastic 'bucket' with a gas- and water-tight lid. It is let into the boat's deck and there's a small-diameter hose that leads downwards from the base of the 'bucket' to an aperture in the boat's outer hull. Any gas (vapour or liquid) that leaks into the 'bucket' will drain down the hose to vent to the outside air. The gas-feed from the bottle to the gas appliances in the boat passes throgh a gas- and water-tight fitting in the 'wall' of the bucket. Examples on http://www.leisureshopdirect.com/marine/marine_accessories/gas_fittings_and_accessories/Sealed_marine_locker.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-11-01 10:23 AM The fact that you need to weigh the cylinders to determine how much you have put in would be the worry for me, sorry it all sounds very desperate, | Well if you find the task of weighing a cylinder desperately worrying, you'd best leave it to someone else to weigh it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Peter James - 2011-11-01 2:05 PM 1footinthegrave - 2011-11-01 10:23 AM The fact that you need to weigh the cylinders to determine how much you have put in would be the worry for me, sorry it all sounds very desperate, | Well if you find the task of weighing a cylinder desperately worrying, you'd best leave it to someone else to weigh it. What a completely pointless post other than to be deliberately offensive, so let me return the compliment. I do get someone to weigh it for me, they are called Calor Gas ltd. I know you guys from over the border have a reputation for being tight, perhaps that's where this quest to save a few insignificant quid comes from. Go blow yourself up, what do I care. >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 pepe63 - 2011-11-01 10:12 AM Thanks Derek...I see now,so if that self-sealing valve doesn't ...well...self seal...then it'll spit it's contents over the forecourt..?! Blimey... 8-) (..they probabIy don't fail but I think I'd prefer a manual valve as well...) I did toy with the idea of a refillable sysytem...but luckily our van can take the 13kg Calor cylinders(..which virtually halved our gas costs),so we didn't bother. A snag with having a manually-operated valve on the bottle's filling-inlet is that it would conflict with Gaslow's refilling 'philosophy'. This advises that a refillable bottle be semi-permanently installed in the leisure-vehicle and that refilling be carried out via an external filling connection remote from where the bottle is housed. The thinking (as I understand it) is that having a remote filling connection means that you won't have to open the gas locker's door to refill the bottle and this will satisfy attendants at service-stations selling Autogas. If you had a manually-operated valve on the bottle's inlet, then (presumably) you'd close this after refilling and then need to open it again before you next topped up the bottle. This would involve opening the gas-locker door. Obviously you COULD open the valve and shut the locker door afterwards well before you commenced refilling, but that would be an additional complication. My own 'plastic' bottle can't have a remote external filling connection, so I make sure that, before I top up the bottle, I've done everything I can to minimise the time it takes to refill. This involves turning off the bottle's outlet valve, disconnecting the gas-hose 'pigtail' from the bottle and adding the necessary adapters to the bottle's outlet. Then (for refilling) it's a matter of opening the gas-locker door, connecting the Autogas pump's filler-nozzle to the bottle, opening the bottle's outlet-valve, rapidly pumping in the pre-calculated amount of LPG (there's no 80% shut-off valve) , closing the bottle's outlet-valve, disconnecting the pump's filler-nozzle and shutting the locker-door. I remove the adapters and reconnect the pigtail to the bottle once I've left the service-station. This is a relatively complex process, with plenty of opportunity for things to go pear-shaped, so I wouldn't advise anyone to use this type of bottle nowadays when there are more fail-safe alternatives available. The main reason I persist with my plastic bottle is that I'm reluctant to junk it when it does the job I want it to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I have been following this thread with interest and like 1footinthegrave I just cant see the point for what must be a fairly small saving. If this decanting mallarkey is purely for use on a gas bbq then surely it would cheaper and less hassle to buy a new bbq that uses a readily obtainable and exchangeable system ... ie calor. Or has been stated by earlier contributor change the gas reg on the bbq you have. .... I dont get it at all. And the same must be said for the DIY autogas type adaptors for filling at service stations. I hope its not when me, mrs ips or mini ips are filling up at the pump next door, nuff said apart from anyone who chooses the DIY self fill option on any type of bottle needs to re-analize there annual MH expences and get the gas cost into perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 1footinthegrave - 2011-11-01 2:13 PM Peter James - 2011-11-01 2:05 PM 1footinthegrave - 2011-11-01 10:23 AM The fact that you need to weigh the cylinders to determine how much you have put in would be the worry for me, sorry it all sounds very desperate, | Well if you find the task of weighing a cylinder desperately worrying, you'd best leave it to someone else to weigh it. What a completely pointless post other than to be deliberately offensive, so let me return the compliment. I do get someone to weigh it for me, they are called Calor Gas ltd. I know you guys from over the border have a reputation for being tight, perhaps that's where this quest to save a few insignificant quid comes from. Go blow yourself up, what do I care. >:-( Do people purchasing exchange-only gas bottles always weigh them before installation to confirm that the bottle genuinely contains the correct amount of gas? How can people using refillable bottles with 80% cut-off valves be certain that the valve has operated correctly and the bottle has not been overfilled? Weighing a bottle to establish safe filling needs care - not only does it require some arithmetic capabilty, but you need to be certain that the weighing-scale you are using is accurate. I'm fond of the translucent bottle because I can actually see the gas level. Conversely, I'd prefer not to be exposed to the risks inherent in the refilling procedure. My own view is that, if you have concerns about doing something because you consider it to be risky and there's a choice not to do it, then don't do it. If you do decide that the benefits of doing something that you consider to be risky outweigh the risks, then do it and accept the consequences of that decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 peter - 2011-10-31 9:13 PM Mel B - 2011-10-31 6:18 PM peter - 2011-10-30 9:11 PM Ian03/54 - 2011-10-29 8:28 PM Mel B - 2011-10-29 7:14 PM What you seem to forget though is that every time you exchange a cylinder for a refilled one, the refilled one has been fully tested before it was filled by the supplier, | Can you produce a link showing this to be the case, please? Or do you mean that the cylinder has a date stamped proving it's useful life? Thanks.Of course she can't. Gee-wiz Peter, thanks for that, why don't you just call me a liar! 8-) I KNOW I read an article on it, and assumed it was in the MMM mag, but maybe it was in the Caravan Club mag or one of the others I've read ... I shall make a point of finding it just for you!!!! :->If there is one person on here that I would not call or imply that they were a liar Mel it's you. I do admit that I did word it badly. What I actually meant was that you were maybe mistaken. As has been illustrated by the later post from Derek Uzell. Nope, I don't think it can be the same article as the one that Derek is on about as it wasn't that long ago, certainly not 2003! I'll have to see if I can find it but if it was the CC mag I tend to throw them when I've finished so might not have it ... I'll have a shuftie when I get time! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 So if you put one of these on a propane cylinder, and don't overfill it, thats got to be safer on the forecourt than a Gaslow, Because with this you have the tap on the propane cylinder to stop the contents of your gas tank spraying across the forecourt if your self sealing valve doesn't seal? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-Standard-/220882632982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item336da18116 I buy professionally refilled cylinder, weigh it, then weigh the one I have filled on the same scales, deducting the corresponding amount for propane weighing less than butane. As a final check shake the cylinder from side to side to be certain their is a gas space inside. This sounds safer than Gaslow, because I don't know what would happen if the cut off tap inside the Gaslow cylinder fails to cut off the supply when it reaches 80% full? As happens in a toilet cistern when the float gets punctured, and the water carries on filling until the water comes out of the overflow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Edited out.....Lost interest :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Peter James - 2011-11-01 9:09 PM So if you put one of these on a propane cylinder, and don't overfill it, thats got to be safer on the forecourt than a Gaslow, Because with this you have the tap on the propane cylinder to stop the contents of your gas tank spraying across the forecourt if your self sealing valve doesn't seal? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-Standard-/220882632982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item336da18116 I buy professionally refilled cylinder, weigh it, then weigh the one I have filled on the same scales, deducting the corresponding amount for propane weighing less than butane. As a final check shake the cylinder from side to side to be certain their is a gas space inside. This sounds safer than Gaslow, because I don't know what would happen if the cut off tap inside the Gaslow cylinder fails to cut off the supply when it reaches 80% full? As happens in a toilet cistern when the float gets punctured, and the water carries on filling until the water comes out of the overflow? You say your method of filling is safer than Gaslow, but: As a final check shake the cylinder from side to side to be certain their is a gas space inside. .... I'm not convinced that shaking a full gas cylinder around is exactly 'safe' ....!!!! 8-) If you want to convince yourself that what you are doing is safe that's fine, I can't see how you can say it is safer than using a cylinder purpose made for it like the Gaslow one, and comparing the shut off valve to the plastic float that you get in a toilet cistern is very simplistic! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Like Peter, I have kind of lost interest. However, just to reasure the folks who are worried about the Gaslow ball cock springing a leak and failing to cut off - I don't know about other people but I would start to worry if my tank started to take more than the 10 litres or so that I usually put in. Valves and gauges are there to help you, not to replace your judgement. For the record - I do not care if anyone fills, refills or not with any kind of tank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 As I started this thread with a post I found on my boat forum only for information on the subject and not to convince anybody that it is safe or otherwise, I would like it to end here. There's no point in going round in circles with this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted November 2, 2011 Share Posted November 2, 2011 peter..can we do...Campsites v Wildcamping now please?... (lol) ..or how about a discussion about dogs on sites....? (lol) Oooh..I know! ...what about a generator thread..? (lol) :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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