Gas cylinder refilling

[bob b]

peter - 2011-11-01 10:25 PM As I started this thread with a post I found on my boat forum only for information on the subject and not to convince anybody that it is safe or otherwise, I would like it to end here. There's no point in going round in circles with this debate.

That'll learn you to try and pass on a useful dodge!  I suspect that you were prepared for all the 'hand wringing' that followed. 

[Derek Uzzell]

Peter James - 2011-11-01 9:09 PM

 

So if you put one of these on a propane cylinder, and don't overfill it, thats got to be safer on the forecourt than a Gaslow, Because with this you have the tap on the propane cylinder to stop the contents of your gas tank spraying across the forecourt if your self sealing valve doesn't seal? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-Standard-/220882632982?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item336da18116

 

I buy professionally refilled cylinder, weigh it, then weigh the one I have filled on the same scales, deducting the corresponding amount for propane weighing less than butane.

As a final check shake the cylinder from side to side to be certain their is a gas space inside.

This sounds safer than Gaslow, because I don't know what would happen if the cut off tap inside the Gaslow cylinder fails to cut off the supply when it reaches 80% full? As happens in a toilet cistern when the float gets punctured, and the water carries on filling until the water comes out of the overflow?

 

If you are refilling an 'on hire' exchange-only bottle (eg. a Calor cylinder) then you'll be contravening the bottle supplier's hire-contract terms and conditions. However you've obtained the bottle and wherever (and however) you refill the bottle, you will never own it and will never be entitled to refill it. It's also probable that any authorised Autogas supplier (given the opportunity) will forbid you from refilling an exchange-only bottle. See the final "LP Gas Association" page on the following file

 

http://www.gasproducts.co.uk/pdf/GaslowRefillableCylinderFittingInstructions.pdf

 

While it's easy enough to imagine (as I did earlier) scenarios where problems might occur with a system involving purpose-designed refillable bottles (eg. a Gaslow system), like a 80%-fill cut-off valve or a non-return inlet-valve malfunctioning, you'd have to be startlingly naive not to appreciate the far greater and ever-present risks involved in refilling a standard steel exchange-only gas bottle, particularly if the refilling is to be performed on a service-station forecourt.

 

The filling-adapter you refer to - with its inbuilt one-way valve - is plainly safer than an adapter without such a valve, but it doesn't legalise the refilling of on-hire bottles. It also doesn't remove the requirement to disconnect/reconnect the on-hire bottle from/to the motorhome's gas system or to remember to turn the bottle's outlet-valve on/off at the appropriate moment. It's a more complicated refilling procedure than that needed for a Gaslow 'fixed' system with much more potential for the refiller to make a mistake.

 

Overlooking the illegality issue, refiIling ordinary steel gas bottles will always need more foreknowledge, more forethought and more care than refilling 'Gaslow-type' bottles.

 

For instance, I'm wary of your statement "I buy professionally refilled cylinder, weigh it, then weigh the one I have filled on the same scales, deducting the corresponding amount for propane weighing less than butane". This seems to suggest that you believe all cylinders of a similar capacity weigh the same empty, which is certainly not the case.

 

What needs to be done is a) to be 100% certain that the weighing-scale you are using is accurate, b) that the empty weight of the particular bottle to be refilled is known and c) that an accurate calculation is made regarding the weight (and hence the volume) of the gas that can safely be put in the bottle. There is no way you can do this on an Autogas service-station forecourt, which is the environment where motorcaravanners will normally be seeking to refill gas reservoirs.

 

Although I've tried to avoid doing this, I shall now confess that I've refilled Calor bottles with Autogas in the past. I've always been fully aware that this has conflicted with Calor's terms and conditions and I've chosen to ignore prominent signs at Autogas serviice-points forbidding me from refilling 'free-standing' bottles. But, even when I've followed the procedure I've just described and known exactly how much gas I could put safely in a bottle, I've still had unforeseen (and potentially lethal) problems during the refilling process.

 

For instance, when, part way through the refilling process, I had the filler-gun come partially off the adapter (with no one-way valve) I was using and propane came shrieking out of the bottle's fully-open outlet. At this point I knew how much gas the pump had dispensed, but I didn't know how much gas had been lost before I could close the bottle's outlet valve. Consequently I no longer knew how much more gas I could safely put in the bottle. As it was, I took a rough guess at the quantity I thought had been lost, which turned out to be pessimistic and meant I had to vent about a litre of gas later (hardly eco-friendly) after I had weighed the bottle and confirmed it had been overfilled. (I should perhaps say that my motorhome wasn't involved when I was refilling the Calor bottles.)

 

So I can speak as a gamekeeper and a poacher. As a gamekeeper I'd say that there are so many risks in forecourt refilling on-hire bottles with Autogas that you'd be a fool to do it. As a poacher I can describe the best procedure to minimise the risks if you do decide to act foolishly. I can't say gas 'decanting' concerns me much as, although there are obvious risks involved if you are DIY cack-handed, it's likely that anyone who does it won't fall into that category.

 

 

[Guest Peter James]

Mel B - 2011-11-01 9:54 PM

 

 

As a final check shake the cylinder from side to side to be certain their is a gas space inside.

 

.... I'm not convinced that shaking a full gas cylinder around is exactly 'safe' ....!!!! 8-)

 

!

 

I understand the cylinders are designed to withstand being dropped, to make it safer you can hold the cylinder over a soft surface when you are shaking it.

 

But if you are so cack handed you can't shake the cylinder without dropping it you shouldn't be refilling them anyway.

[Guest Peter James]

1footinthegrave - 2011-11-01 2:13 PM

 

Peter James - 2011-11-01 2:05 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-11-01 10:23 AM

 

The fact that you need to weigh the cylinders to determine how much you have put in would be the worry for me, sorry it all sounds very desperate, |

 

Well if you find the task of weighing a cylinder desperately worrying, you'd best leave it to someone else to weigh it.

 

What a completely pointless post other than to be deliberately offensive, so let me return the compliment. I do get someone to weigh it for me, they are called Calor Gas ltd. I know you guys from over the border have a reputation for being tight, perhaps that's where this quest to save a few insignificant quid comes from. Go blow yourself up, what do I care. >:-(

 

Well, Thats what I get for being tactful and diplomatic ;-) :D

[Derek Uzzell]

Peter James - 2011-11-02 10:29 AM

 

Mel B - 2011-11-01 9:54 PM

 

 

As a final check shake the cylinder from side to side to be certain their is a gas space inside.

 

.... I'm not convinced that shaking a full gas cylinder around is exactly 'safe' ....!!!! 8-)

 

!

 

I understand the cylinders are designed to withstand being dropped, to make it safer you can hold the cylinder over a soft surface when you are shaking it.

 

But if you are so cack handed you can't shake the cylinder without dropping it you shouldn't be refilling them anyway.

 

Although I appreciate that your shaking ploy is only to provide a secondary security measure after you've carried out the weighing procedure, it won't necessarily save your bacon if the weighing procedure was faulty. If you made an arithmetical mistake at the weighing stage and, say, filled a bottle to 90% capacity, it's likely that you'd still be able to hear liquid gas sloshing about in the bottle afterwards.

 

 

 

 

[Guest peter]

pepe63 - 2011-11-02 8:23 AM

 

peter..can we do...Campsites v Wildcamping now please?... (lol)

 

..or how about a discussion about dogs on sites....? (lol)

 

Oooh..I know! ...what about a generator thread..? (lol)

 

:D

Too late I've already started one on A Frames. :D

[Guest Peter James]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-02 7:02 PM

 

 

Although I appreciate that your shaking ploy is only to provide a secondary security measure after you've carried out the weighing procedure, it won't necessarily save your bacon if the weighing procedure was faulty. If you made an arithmetical mistake at the weighing stage and, say, filled a bottle to 90% capacity, it's likely that you'd still be able to hear liquid gas sloshing about in the bottle afterwards.

 

 

 

 

I can't hear the liquid slopping from side to side, its inside a heavy cylinder and as weight absorbs sound there is little to be heard.

I shake them so I can FEEL the liquid slopping from side to side, so there must be a significant empty space. And this is only a last line of defence check after weighing the cylinder.

 

Incidentally, I take the point that draining the cylinder to weigh it may be more accurate, but I can't imagine the full time refillers doing that?

 

Answer seems to be to allow a bit extra safety margin by filing below the maximum recommended level.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Peter James - 2011-11-03 9:36 AM

 

...Incidentally, I take the point that draining the cylinder to weigh it may be more accurate, but I can't imagine the full time refillers doing that?

 

I can't aswer that question, but I suspect that an authorised refiller (eg. a Calor refilling centre) would drain each bottle before the refilling/weighing stage just to be certain there's no 'crap' in it.

 

It's important not to underestimate the risks people confidently take.

 

I once met a motorcaravanning couple at an Autogas refilling station who were refilling a pair of MTH Autogas 'plastic' bottles. One of these bottles had an 80% cut-off valve and the other did not. When I observed that there was always a risk of overfilling MTHA valve-less bottles I was told that their valve-less bottle had been filled until the Autogas pump shut off (ie. when the bottle was 100% full), but this was OK because the motorhome was to be driven to a campsite immediately afterwards when the vehicle's gas appliances would be run from that bottle, thus producing room for liquid-gas expansion.

[Guest Peter James]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-03 9:55 AM

I suspect that an authorised refiller (eg. a Calor refilling centre) would drain each bottle before the refilling/weighing stage just to be certain there's no 'crap' in it.

.

I must admit I would not do that if I was working there. Extra time to drain the gas, Extra time to fill the bottle, Then have to dispose of the drained gas?

I'm not talking about official policy here, but what actually happens on the filling line?

[Guest Peter James]

peter - 2011-11-01 9:12 PM

 

Edited out.....Lost interest :D

 

You should have started the thread on something less contraversial like the public sector pensions strike ;-)

[Derek Uzzell]

Peter James - 2011-11-03 12:50 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-03 9:55 AM

I suspect that an authorised refiller (eg. a Calor refilling centre) would drain each bottle before the refilling/weighing stage just to be certain there's no 'crap' in it.

.

I must admit I would not do that if I was working there. Extra time to drain the gas, Extra time to fill the bottle, Then have to dispose of the drained gas?

I'm not talking about official policy here, but what actually happens on the filling line?

 

 

OK, I've asked my nearest large Calor Centre (at Worcester) about this and, although they don't actually refill bottles there, they advised me that any bottle returned to a Calor refilling depot is NOT usually drained of any residual gas that happens to be present in the bottle at the time. Basically (as you suspected) bottles that are returned to Calor agents get 'topped-up' on the filling line.

 

I also inquired how often a visually sound bottle would be tested/refurbished and was told that this was done every 5 years.

[pepe63xnotuse]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-03 3:30 PM

 

 

OK, I've asked my nearest large Calor Centre (at Worcester) about this and, although they don't actually refill bottles there, they advised me that any bottle returned to a Calor refilling depot is NOT usually drained of any residual gas that happens to be present in the bottle at the time. Basically (as you suspected) bottles that are returned to Calor agents get 'topped-up' on the filling line.

 

I also inquired how often a visually sound bottle would be tested/refurbished and was told that this was done every 5 years.

 

Oh Derek.!..fancy going and spoiling it by asking someone who actually knows,firsthand.... *-)

...where's the fun in that? ;-)

[bob b]

Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-03 9:55 AM

Peter James - 2011-11-03 9:36 AM ...Incidentally, I take the point that draining the cylinder to weigh it may be more accurate, but I can't imagine the full time refillers doing that?

I can't aswer that question, but I suspect that an authorised refiller (eg. a Calor refilling centre) would drain each bottle before the refilling/weighing stage just to be certain there's no 'crap' in it. It's important not to underestimate the risks people confidently take. I once met a motorcaravanning couple at an Autogas refilling station who were refilling a pair of MTH Autogas 'plastic' bottles. One of these bottles had an 80% cut-off valve and the other did not. When I observed that there was always a risk of overfilling MTHA valve-less bottles I was told that their valve-less bottle had been filled until the Autogas pump shut off (ie. when the bottle was 100% full), but this was OK because the motorhome was to be driven to a campsite immediately afterwards when the vehicle's gas appliances would be run from that bottle, thus producing room for liquid-gas expansion.

I was under the impression that the autogas pump automatically cut off when the cylinder was 80% full. So it is not possible to fill to 100%?

[Derek Uzzell]

pepe63 - 2011-11-03 5:13 PM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-03 3:30 PM

 

 

OK, I've asked my nearest large Calor Centre (at Worcester) about this and, although they don't actually refill bottles there, they advised me that any bottle returned to a Calor refilling depot is NOT usually drained of any residual gas that happens to be present in the bottle at the time. Basically (as you suspected) bottles that are returned to Calor agents get 'topped-up' on the filling line.

 

I also inquired how often a visually sound bottle would be tested/refurbished and was told that this was done every 5 years.

 

Oh Derek.!..fancy going and spoiling it by asking someone who actually knows,firsthand.... *-)

...where's the fun in that? ;-)

 

I did express surprise when I was told that cylinders weren't drained as a matter of course before being refilled, saying that I would have thought Calor would have wanted to guard against contamination - like water or 'oil' - building up in a bottle, but it was suggested that this couldn't happen. Who am I to argue?

 

The following link may be useful as it has some relevance to gas-bottle refilling

 

http://www.a-tconsulting.co.uk/caravan_tech/gas_matters.html

 

(In the table at the end of the webpage 6kg of Autogas (100% propane in the UK) is equated to 10.2 litres - I thought it would be about 11.9 litres. Comments invited on this, please.)

[Derek Uzzell]

bob b - 2011-11-03 7:01 PM

Derek Uzzell - 2011-11-03 9:55 AM

Peter James - 2011-11-03 9:36 AM ...Incidentally, I take the point that draining the cylinder to weigh it may be more accurate, but I can't imagine the full time refillers doing that?

I can't aswer that question, but I suspect that an authorised refiller (eg. a Calor refilling centre) would drain each bottle before the refilling/weighing stage just to be certain there's no 'crap' in it. It's important not to underestimate the risks people confidently take. I once met a motorcaravanning couple at an Autogas refilling station who were refilling a pair of MTH Autogas 'plastic' bottles. One of these bottles had an 80% cut-off valve and the other did not. When I observed that there was always a risk of overfilling MTHA valve-less bottles I was told that their valve-less bottle had been filled until the Autogas pump shut off (ie. when the bottle was 100% full), but this was OK because the motorhome was to be driven to a campsite immediately afterwards when the vehicle's gas appliances would be run from that bottle, thus producing room for liquid-gas expansion.

I was under the impression that the autogas pump automatically cut off when the cylinder was 80% full. So it is not possible to fill to 100%?

An Autogas pump will only cut off when no more gas can be pumped into the receiving vessel. If the receiving vessel (eg. a gas bottle) has no valve to prevent overfilling then the pump will continue to pump in gas until the vessel is full. That's why bottles with no 80% shut-off valve (like a standard Calor bottle or the standard MTHA bottle) need real care when being refilled.

[Brambles]

" http://www.a-tconsulting.co.uk/caravan_tech/gas_matters.html

 

(In the table at the end of the webpage 6kg of Autogas (100% propane in the UK) is equated to 10.2 litres - I thought it would be about 11.9 litres. Comments invited on this, please.) "

Edit - added above for reference.

 

 

Well spotted Derek, you are right. Looks like they have used the figure for Butane.

 

Butane typically 1.715 litre/kg

Propane typically 1.972 litre/kg

@15 deg C for comercial grades.

[Derek Uzzell]

Brambles - 2011-11-03 8:28 PM

 

" http://www.a-tconsulting.co.uk/caravan_tech/gas_matters.html

 

(In the table at the end of the webpage 6kg of Autogas (100% propane in the UK) is equated to 10.2 litres - I thought it would be about 11.9 litres. Comments invited on this, please.) "

Edit - added above for reference.

 

 

Well spotted Derek, you are right. Looks like they have used the figure for Butane.

 

Butane typically 1.715 litre/kg

Propane typically 1.972 litre/kg

@15 deg C for comercial grades.

 

This should be a salutary lesson, where incorrect information has been given on a good-looking website purporting to provide 'expert' advice.

 

While the mistake is probably not harmful safety-wise (ie. if you had weighed, say, a Calor bottle to establish how much Autogas you could safely put in and used butane-related weight-to-volume figures in your calculation, you'd subsequently 'underfill' the bottle), but it does affect the £1.30-per-kg cost stated in the table, which should be around £1.52. The table is useful however, as it indicates that there's not an enormous difference in the cost-per-kg between Autogas propane and Calor propane provided that your motorhome can accommodate 13kg Calor bottles.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz ! !

[rrf494g]

as a newbie to this forum AND a newbie to refilling 907's with autogas propane, I thought I'd add a personal observation to all the health and safety comments.

 

For many years I've had a propane fuelled central heating boiler for part of my (rural) house. It uses 4 X 47 kilo propane cylinders (the big boys) in banks of 2 X 2. There is an automatic changeover so that when two run out I get 2 more delivered and I have to swap them. (I do it myself as I can't rely on the delivery man avoiding slight leaks)(that's the "professional" LPG handler-man, by the way).

 

When I fit the two new 47's I have to connect them together and to the regulator in the right way and sequence. This is normal practice and I'm "allowed" to do this. No big deal. No H&S issue.

 

In the act of connecting them together, I'm doing no more than is needed to refill a 907 from my refillable auto-gas propane bottle. It's just two different bottles connected (in a more simple way) by purchased, purpose designed connectors.

I make sure the 907 ends up with the right weight of propane for safety (60% full).

The 907 even has the max weight of PROPANE stamped round the base.

 

Each of us needs to take responsibility for our own actions within our own competances - and not be frightened by the bogy-man.

[Syd]

 

Like many people on here we "go away" for 9 to13 weeks at a time, our use of gas is such that we cannot carry enough calor gas to cover us for that amount of time and of course you cannot get calor gas bottles abroad.

 

So thanks to this forum and the information given on a similar thread to this some time ago we decided to purchase a refillable bottle and at the same time sought advice from the firm supplying the bottle on refilling the bottle abroad.

He mentioned the dangers, he also mentioned that service stations here and overseas are mostly against refilling bottles and many downright refuse to allow it.

 

Then he advised me to fit a proper filling point outside the car, with the correct hose being led into the rear of the car through a rubber bung hole that was conveiniently there, the hose had the correct ends that matched the bottle and so was tightened onto the bottle in the rear of the car, and the bottle inlet opened.

Then we drive to the garage, fill the bottle the same as filling the car tank, drive back to the caravan, usually stoping on the way to close the inlet on the bottle and the simply lift the bottle out of the car and release the hose from the bottle.

It is quiet suprising just how much gas is left in the hose so this job needs to be done in the open.

 

Been doing this for about three years now filling about six bottles a year without the slightest problem

 

We do this simply because we cannot carry enough gas but here is what we believe it actually saves us

Calor bottle costs about £23/£24

Refiling a bottle costs us no more than 14 Euro's

So we have now saved about £180 on gas so far which is about what the system has cost us.

 

This system is totally safe at the refill point and safe at the removal of the hose from the bottle point providing a little care is taken and common sense is used at that point.

 

Anyone can go on about Ahh but what if this fails or what if that fails but what if your car breaks down or your caravan chassis snaps or a wheel drops off or a boeing 747 crash lands on you or a high speed train jumps the rails and smashes through your campsite or if you are hit by a sunami or destroyed by a earthquake or buried by a volcano eruption and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

 

*-) *-) *-) *-)

[bolero boy]

Isn't the difference here that you are refilling a 'refillable' bottle designed for this purpose? Other posters have referred to refilling normal 'user non-refillable' bottle and proclaiming similar safety properties as 'refillables'.

[Derek Uzzell]

When it comes to user-refilling of gas bottles, there is best practice and then there's reality.

 

Best practice includes 'legality' and this includes conforming to any terms and conditions relating to the bottles themselves. If you refill an 'exchange' gas bottle, be it a Calor, BP, Repsol, Campingaz, etc. container, and no matter how you've acquired it, you WILL be infringing the terms and conditions for that bottle. I have a Campingaz 907 canister and it's evident from what's printed on that bottle that Campingaz expects users to exchange it not refill it themselves. If you think you may have any right to refill an exchange gas bottle yourself, then I suggest you contact the company whose name is on the bottle and ask if they will authorise you to do it. The answer will be "No".

 

Even if 'legaity' is overlooked, best practice is not to refill 'exchange' bottles yourself as such containers are not intended for that purpose and don't have any of the safeguards that are built into a container purpose-designed for user-refilling.

 

Moving on to gas-bottles purpose-designed for user-refilling (Gaslow, Alugas, Stako, etc.), best practice will be for such containers to be securely fixed within a leisure-vehicle's gas-locker and to refill them with autogas via a filling-point installed remote from the bottles similar to the arrangement used for a bi-fuel vehicle. And best practice when carrying out the refilling is to wear protective gloves while doing it and keep your wits about you.

 

Reality is that many people will choose to overlook 'legality' issues relating to exchange bottles. They will also ignore clear signs at autogas refilling stations (eg. at Countrywide outlets) saying "Do not fill bottles". Gas refilling does occasionally go wrong - sometimes very wrong. The reason Countrywide outlets now have a bottle-refilling prohibition sign relates to a motorhome-related fire that seriously damaged the vehicle. Even Syd's ploy involving carrying a free-standing refilliable bottle in the boot of his car and using a remote filling-point entails risks not found with a 'fixed' refillable bottle installation. While it's easy to advocate the need for care, commonsense and not straying outside one's competency zone, many people are unable to follow those precepts.

 

It would be foolish to underestimate how dangerous LPG can be and it's far better that a motorhome forum emphasizes the risks involved when refilling gas cylinders (whatever their type), rather than just providing a handy DIY guide to the methodology.

 

Me, I don't much care about other individuals' actions as long as they don't impact adversely on me or on people I'm fond of. While I'm perfectly happy to listen to wise words and good advice, I'm equally happy to ignore both if it suits me. I'm not too fussed about 'legality' either, but that doesn't mean I'll just ignore it. If you asked me about the advisability of having sex in a hammock, I'd be happy to provide a risk assessment but, if you then ignored the risks and were subsequently prosecuted for trying it out at a Caravan Club campsite, or damaged your vital appendages, then (as far as I'm concerned) you just had it coming.

 

[rupert123]

rrf494g - 2012-01-25 9:31 PM

 

as a newbie to this forum AND a newbie to refilling 907's with autogas propane, I thought I'd add a personal observation to all the health and safety comments.

 

For many years I've had a propane fuelled central heating boiler for part of my (rural) house. It uses 4 X 47 kilo propane cylinders (the big boys) in banks of 2 X 2. There is an automatic changeover so that when two run out I get 2 more delivered and I have to swap them. (I do it myself as I can't rely on the delivery man avoiding slight leaks)(that's the "professional" LPG handler-man, by the way).

 

When I fit the two new 47's I have to connect them together and to the regulator in the right way and sequence. This is normal practice and I'm "allowed" to do this. No big deal. No H&S issue.

 

In the act of connecting them together, I'm doing no more than is needed to refill a 907 from my refillable auto-gas propane bottle. It's just two different bottles connected (in a more simple way) by purchased, purpose designed connectors.

I make sure the 907 ends up with the right weight of propane for safety (60% full).

The 907 even has the max weight of PROPANE stamped round the base.

 

Each of us needs to take responsibility for our own actions within our own competances - and not be frightened by the bogy-man.

 

This is all a bit scary, firstly it is down right illegal, bottle is not owned by you and despite any care you may take is not designed for a self refill. The pros and cons of this have been discussed many times on here and although I personally do not care what you do this sort of practice can backfire on us all. Buy something like a Gaslow which you will own and has an 80% cutout. Welcome to the forum and do not be put of by others not agreeing with you, it is par for the course.

[Syd]

 

Of course I have read all or most of these posts and probably agree with some of them but in reality people ARE going to refill their bottles regardless of them being refillable bottles or not.

Scaremongering isnt going to solve anything.

I put it to you that what should be happening on here is to take that into consideration and simply advise people on how to do it as safely as posible.

The REAL danger lies in the home made contraptions that unwitting ill advised people use to refill their bottles so we should be attempting to take these out of the equasion by giving good solid advice on what and how to do it

 

Fillig your car with petrol is also a very dangerous thing to do but you bear these dangers in mind when you do that too, no smoking, no spillages, no mobiles and so on.

 

I think that the set up that we use is as safe as one can get and cannot see what the added dangers that Derek talks about are, yes it is may not be quiet as safe as filling a fixed bottle set up but that still doesnt make it any more dangerous as long as the dangers are always borne in mind

 

Pointless things that I have seen mentioned as being associated with bottle refilling are

 

You might get the weighing of the bottle wrong, you might not get the pump filler connected correctly, the attachment to the bottle may not be tight/correctly fitted, pipes may develop a leak, the bottle may be damaged and legality.

Apart from the weighing issue,(who cannot weigh things correctly but can manage to holiday all over europe with ease) everything else could just as easilly be ralated to fixed installations.

What legality has got to do with this issue I fail to understand as it is illegal to fill bottles FULL STOP but that is NOT going to stop it happening

 

So I believe strongly that we should be advising not scare mongering

 

 

 

[rupert123]

I would have thought being legal is quite a lot to do with it for most people. It is legal to fill bottles owned by you that are made for purpose. As for advising someone who refills bottles not owned by them and with no cut off this is the wrong way round, surely we should be discouraging the practice.