Gas cylinder refilling

[Derek Uzzell]

Syd - 2012-01-26 12:58 PM

 

I think that the set up that we use is as safe as one can get and cannot see what the added dangers that Derek talks about are...

 

"Then we drive to the garage, fill the bottle the same as filling the car tank, drive back to the caravan, usually stoping on the way to close the inlet on the bottle and the simply lift the bottle out of the car and release the hose from the bottle. It is quite suprising just how much gas is left in the hose so this job needs to be done in the open."

 

"This system is totally safe at the refill point and safe at the removal of the hose from the bottle point providing a little care is taken and common sense is used at that point."

 

The method you employ inevitably involves liquid LPG remaining in the filler hose when refilling has been completed. When the filler hose is disconnected from your refillable bottle, this gas empties itself from the hose. It's plain from the parts of your earlier posting that I've quoted above that you recognise this as being potentially dangerous and take appropriate measures to manage the risks. However (as I said earlier) the leakage of gas inherent in what you do is "not found with a 'fixed' refillable bottle installation". Surely this is not difficult to appreciate?

 

It's unkind perhaps, but I suggest you read the 4th-from-last posting on the following thread

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26107&posts=30

 

This is what people do - they don't intend to screw up but they do - and this is why you'll find most experienced forum members are not comfortable enough to provide step-by-step instructions on how to perform a task that they know involves potentially high risks.

 

I know exactly how to fill exchange and refillable gas bottles, but I prefer to offer best practice advice that, if followed, should allow safe refilling even for 'newbies', rather than advice on the lines of "Get yourself a redundant Calor bottle from a car-boot sale, a accurate bathroom scales and an adapter from e-bay..."

 

 

[rrf494g]

The reason I joined the thread was to point out the difference between risk & danger and commercial companies' advice.

 

There is more risk and danger when I replace 2 X 47kilo household propanes, and connect them together (and to a regulator), then "open them up", than the risk and danger when I refill a 097 campingaz cylinder. When I replace the two big propane tanks there is a real (and small) danger of releasing around 100 kilos of liquid propane into the immeadiate environment. Yet, because the supplying company wants me to do this, there is "no problem" with legalities or recomendations. There is good safety practice.

 

Refilling (at home) cylinders that a commercial company wants me to pay them to fill, however, is surounded by scaremongering and half-truths. The advice from the company is distorted and biased in the extreme. This is NOT to say that there is not essential good saftety practice. It's just that you can not rely on the supply company to gve it.

 

The easiest "truth" is that there is risk in doing this, that, or the other. Of course there is, and (as an earlier post described) there is risk in getting out of bed in the morning, driving to work or eating fish and chips. There is even a risk of winning the lottery.

 

Those who do refill tanks have not said once in this thread, that anbody else should do it. In fact, most have indicated that it should not be done without much thought and competence. This a respectful position to take.

 

Some of those "against" refilling have indicated that others shouldn't be doing it. To my mind this is a judgemental position to take and less respectful.

 

What is most dagerous in my view is that some have stated that we shouldn't even talk about doing it - or how to do it safely. At one time even the ability to read and write itself was seen by "the wise" as something to be controlled and restricted to themselves.

 

I view motorhome travel as freedom to choose with responsibility - same as cylinder refills.

[rupert123]

rrf494g - 2012-01-26 2:43 PM

 

The reason I joined the thread was to point out the difference between risk & danger and commercial companies' advice.

 

There is more risk and danger when I replace 2 X 47kilo household propanes, and connect them together (and to a regulator), then "open them up", than the risk and danger when I refill a 097 campingaz cylinder. When I replace the two big propane tanks there is a real (and small) danger of releasing around 100 kilos of liquid propane into the immeadiate environment. Yet, because the supplying company wants me to do this, there is "no problem" with legalities or recomendations. There is good safety practice.

 

Refilling (at home) cylinders that a commercial company wants me to pay them to fill, however, is surounded by scaremongering and half-truths. The advice from the company is distorted and biased in the extreme. This is NOT to say that there is not essential good saftety practice. It's just that you can not rely on the supply company to gve it.

 

The easiest "truth" is that there is risk in doing this, that, or the other. Of course there is, and (as an earlier post described) there is risk in getting out of bed in the morning, driving to work or eating fish and chips. There is even a risk of winning the lottery.

 

Those who do refill tanks have not said once in this thread, that anbody else should do it. In fact, most have indicated that it should not be done without much thought and competence. This a respectful position to take.

 

Some of those "against" refilling have indicated that others shouldn't be doing it. To my mind this is a judgemental position to take and less respectful.

 

What is most dagerous in my view is that some have stated that we shouldn't even talk about doing it - or how to do it safely. At one time even the ability to read and write itself was seen by "the wise" as something to be controlled and restricted to themselves.

 

I view motorhome travel as freedom to choose with responsibility - same as cylinder refills.

 

I am sorry but no other way to say it, this is pure rubbish. I to have four 47 kg cylinders at home, in my case i trust the delivery man to connect them, he tests for leaks. However if I choose to connect myself I would simply be screwing on a pipe in the same way as you would if you bought a new filled cylinder for a M/H. This is nothing like taking an empty cylinder, which you do not own, then filling it yourself with no way of telling if it is overfull other than weighing it on a pair of bathroom scales. You should not be doing it, if that is not being respectful then to bad. I agree with your last sentence and suggest you start practising it.

[Steve928]

rupert123 - that must be 3 or 4 times now that you've declared that rfrrf494g 'does not own' the gas cylinders.

 

I'm afraid that you are wrong: he is referring to Camping Gaz 907 cylinders which are purchased outright and are not the property of Camping Gaz International. Perhaps you are thinking of Calor cylinders?

 

From Camping Gas terms and conditions: "Once you purchase a Campingaz® cylinder you will have ownership for life"

[Syd]

 

I will be the first person to say that I am not the brightest shilling in the purse and as stupid as I am I can see the logic in the view that filling gas bottles ones self had risks attached to it but I do not fully understand people not wanting to try to pass on sound guidance to people complemtating doing this

 

Sorry guys, I do not want this to become personalise but Derek I did ask what was the aditional dangers were and you (to me anyway) dont seem to have added any other risk than what has been said in my post but again that is not really the point that I am trying to make and I will return to that again in a second or two.

 

Rupert please correct me if I am wrong but providing the non-refillable bottle is empty then you should be able to know exactly how much to put into it to fill it to it's recomended 85% without going to the trouble of weighing it. Weighing it is simply an additional safety feature that is available to those who fill non - refillable botles. It would be churlish to say that the pump measurement could be wrong wouldn't it.

 

I am not too bothered at all about those two points above as My point is this

 

People are going to do this no matter what, some will research it and get competent guidance and do it in as safe a manner as is posible while others will not do so and make up some home made concoction that could be a huge danger to themselves and just maybe to us too.

I have seen systems made up from the copper gas pipe used in motorhomes/caravans and rubber hose also from caravans fastened together with cable tie's.

 

From this I deduced that it would be far better to give this group of people the sound guidance that would help eradicate this and perhaps save some lives, yes attach the danger list to any guidance but keep it factual.

Note as this discussion progresses I have changed the wording from "advice" to "guidance".

Some professionals will not want to be associated with this guidance but if that is the position that you take well fine and by all means keep posting your views as they are equally as valid as anyone elses but simply don't go over the top in your exagerations of the dangers involved. In fact maybe "Dangers" should be replaced with "Risks"

 

 

[bolero boy]

Not really looking to contribute much to this thread except to say a couple of things.....

I may get into the refillable bottle scenario soon but will be fitting a Gaslow or similar purpose designed system.

Secondly, this reminds me of some of the risk/impact assessments we used to do during project builds and implementations.....

Risk - is the likelhood of something happening

Impact - is the consequence of that happening

 

Walking a tightrope has it's level of risk of you falling off.

If the rope is only one foot off the ground, the impact is negligable.

If the rope is strung across Niagra Falls then the imact might be more serious.

 

Using a purpose built refillable system with built-in cutoff will minimise the risks to the process as well as can be done. Using Heath Robinson kit removes some or all of the risk prevention.

If it does go wrong, rest assured that you cant be slightly dead...............

[Derek Uzzell]

Steve928 - 2012-01-26 4:35 PM

 

rupert123 - that must be 3 or 4 times now that you've declared that rfrrf494g 'does not own' the gas cylinders.

 

I'm afraid that you are wrong: he is referring to Camping Gaz 907 cylinders which are purchased outright and are not the property of Camping Gaz International. Perhaps you are thinking of Calor cylinders?

 

From Camping Gas terms and conditions: "Once you purchase a Campingaz® cylinder you will have ownership for life"

 

You may have bought the Campingaz cylinder, but you have not bought the right to refill it. Suggest you contact Campingaz if you believe that statement is incorrect.

[Dave Newell]

I am frankly amazed that people with £20,000 pluz motorhomes that are, lets face it, expensive to own and run will risk life, limb and legalities to save £20! I am a professional in the motorhome industry, I have just renewed my ACOPS gas certificate but I certainly wouldn't risk home refilling of a campingaz 907 with propane from any sized bottle, least of all a 47kg one! Firstly the Campingaz cylinders are designed to hold butane at 28 psi not propane at 100psi. Secondly and in my humble opinion more importantly is the notion of "common sense" in my experience this is actually a rather rare commodity.

 

Do what you want to but please don't set up camp near me.

 

D.

[Frankkia]

I'm with Dave on this one.

 

A few years ago I met a couple who told me about their terrible experience with a refillable bottle. Apparently he hadn't turned off the gas at the bottle when he refilled it and when they turned on the cooker liquid gas spurted over the cooker and ignited. The resulting explosion badly damaged the 'van and they were both lucky to escape relatively unscathed.

 

They said their solicitor was working on a compensation claim against the manufacturers. They also said that their insurers had insisted that the 'van be repaired. This had entailed an almost complete rebuild of the rear of the 'van. They were travelling in the rebuilt 'van now fitted with Calor exchangeable bottles and would never again buy a refillable.

 

Having told me all of the above I next saw him (about a couple of hours later) messing about in the gas locker of the 'van. I went across to see if he had a problem. Was I surprised when he told me he was fed up with unbolting 1 gas bottle and bolting on to the next so he was installing a "Y" piece in the pipe so that both bottles would be connected all the time. The "Y" piece was a plastic "Y" from a windscreen washer system which he was "Jubilee" clipping to his rubber gas pipes.

 

Parking in the same country was too close for me.

 

As Dave said "Common sense" ain't that common.

 

[Steve928]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-01-26 7:00 PM

 

 

You may have bought the Campingaz cylinder, but you have not bought the right to refill it. Suggest you contact Campingaz if you believe that statement is incorrect.

 

I have no interest whatsoever in your statement.

I merely pointed-out rupert123's oft-repeated error.

[Syd]

 

Hi Frankkia

So here we go then, I think this strengthens my point regarding the risk of refillable/filling gas bottles. From your post we see that refillable bottles carry a significant risk when fitted in a fixed situation.

Your post highlights a risk that my setup does not have and it also highlights the human error element.

My only risk is when releasing the pressure from the pipe to the bottle and I only do this when well away from everyone else not on the campsite

Hence my point of giving good guidance and sensible warnings.

 

I am not talking about the campinggaz bottles here as hardly anyone uses them in caravans or motorhomes as far as I am aware I am simply talking about refilling either Calor gas bottles or refillable bottles

[Frankkia]

Hi Syd.

 

I was not getting at your method at all - given the circumstances in which you require gas I would probably have a similar system to yours. As it is I use 2 Gaslow bottles in our 'van and remember to cut off the supply before filling.

 

What concerns me is that there are many people who think they know what they are doing and it matters not how many times anyone else tries to instil in them "best practice" they will never learn.

 

Many years ago (at the dawn of computers) I used to teach people how to use computer terminals and printers etc. I would teach groups of about 30 people who had similar office backgrounds. I would first explain what they had to do then show them and then let them have a go whilst I watched. Most got it first time, some got it second time BUT there was always 1 or 2 who wouldn't get it and never would. For those who would never get it I was glad it was just a computer and not something really dangerous.

[Syd]

 

I think it would be a good idea for someone to place on here at least one method of doing this as safely as posible.

To that end here is the method that we use, bearing in mind that we are tuggers

 

We have the normal gas filling point used by everyone fastened to the side of the tow hitch with the correct mounting bracket.

 

From the gas filling point we have a purpose made high pressure hose (Black and about one and a quarter inches thich) that is made purposely to fit the filling point and readily available on the shelf from most gas installers, leading into the back of our towing vehicle via a very conveniently placed rubber plugged hole. Keep this hose as short as posible

 

The empty refillable bottle is strapped into the rear of the vehicle in the upright position, the hose is then securely connected to the filling point on the bottle and the inlet valve opened, the outlet valve is checked again to be in the closed position.

 

Drive to the garage, and with the boot closed, connect the supply pump to the filling point and simply fill the bottle until the pump stops, We know how many litres our bottle holds so I also keep an eye on the pump clock simply to ensure that we dont go over the top.

The supply pump will not supply any gas unless it is correctly connected to the filling point so no worries about not being correctly connected and shooting gas everwhere, that simply cannot happen.

 

Pay for gas, drive to a reasonably isolated spot and close the filling valve on the bottle then lift the bottle from the vehicle and SLOWLY loosen the filling pipe from the bottle filling point just a LITTLE, wait for the gas to escape and slowly loosen the pipe some more until gas stops escaping and then remove the pipe altogether from the bottle and replace the bottle into the rear of the car and fasten it down. Job done.

 

The only risk factor that we have is the emptying of the gas that is in the pipe between the filling point and the now closed bottle filling valve hence the selecting of a reasonably isolated spot and the SLOW release of this gas.

 

DO NOT SMOKE or have any naked flame anywhere nearby when doing this.

[rrf494g]

I agree entirely that there is risk and there is impact. It is the understanding of what level these are with various courses of action, that is completely missing from many posts on this thread.

 

The most dangerous action any of us could undertake regarding fuel, is to fill up our car with petrol at the petrol station.

 

If petrol were invented/proposed as a fuel today it would be banned. It's openly dispensed with no safety valve, no overflow control and massive opportunity and occurance of vapours pouring around the forecourt from filling in progress. There is nothing to stop people (at or close to a petrol station) smoking, using a mobile phone or creating sparks with their boots (only signs advising otherwise).

 

There are clearly a number of posters to this thread who should never go near a petrol station, as the risk/impact of standing in one is far greater than refilling an LPG cylinder. The impact of a petrol station explosion is way, way greater than, say, 10kgs of propane.( A good scene in the film, "Bullet" on this!)

 

But there is no scaremongering about the un-supervised filling of a car with petrol. There is official "approval" and indeed "encouragement".

 

No-one wishes any other person to refill their own lpg cylinders. I do however wish for people to look at the real risks and impacts for themselves. I also don't want to tell others on this forum that they shouldn't be filling their cars with petrol. It's their decision, despite the fact that diesel fuel if far far safer and the risks/impacts of running and filing a petrol car are massively greater.

 

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Syd - 2012-01-27 9:01 AM

 

 

I think it would be a good idea for someone to place on here at least one method of doing this as safely as posible.

To that end here is the method that we use, bearing in mind that we are tuggers

 

We have the normal gas filling point used by everyone fastened to the side of the tow hitch with the correct mounting bracket.

 

From the gas filling point we have a purpose made high pressure hose (Black and about one and a quarter inches thich) that is made purposely to fit the filling point and readily available on the shelf from most gas installers, leading into the back of our towing vehicle via a very conveniently placed rubber plugged hole. Keep this hose as short as posible

 

The empty refillable bottle is strapped into the rear of the vehicle in the upright position, the hose is then securely connected to the filling point on the bottle and the inlet valve opened, the outlet valve is checked again to be in the closed position.

 

Drive to the garage, and with the boot closed, connect the supply pump to the filling point and simply fill the bottle until the pump stops, We know how many litres our bottle holds so I also keep an eye on the pump clock simply to ensure that we dont go over the top.

The supply pump will not supply any gas unless it is correctly connected to the filling point so no worries about not being correctly connected and shooting gas everwhere, that simply cannot happen.

 

Pay for gas, drive to a reasonably isolated spot and close the filling valve on the bottle then lift the bottle from the vehicle and SLOWLY loosen the filling pipe from the bottle filling point just a LITTLE, wait for the gas to escape and slowly loosen the pipe some more until gas stops escaping and then remove the pipe altogether from the bottle and replace the bottle into the rear of the car and fasten it down. Job done.

 

The only risk factor that we have is the emptying of the gas that is in the pipe between the filling point and the now closed bottle filling valve hence the selecting of a reasonably isolated spot and the SLOW release of this gas.

 

DO NOT SMOKE or have any naked flame anywhere nearby when doing this.

 

I've occasionally wondered how caravanners might manage a refillable gas-bottle system and your arrangement seems the best practicable option. You might want to copy details to the Caravan Chat forum as it's more relevant there.

 

Out of interest, what make/model of refillable bottle do you use please? Your description suggests that it has an inlet and outlet valve both of which can be opened and closed. I just don't recall seeing a refillable bottle that has a closable inlet valve.

[Syd]

 

Derek

Sorry our bottle is in the caravan in storage at the moment but it was bought from the guy in Thirsk and is grey painted.

This man is VERY helpful indeed and will actually demonstrate how to do it all

 

On reflection you may be right regarding the inlet not being a controlled valve but at the time of writing that I seemed to recall closing a valve but now that you mention it it may simply be that I checked that the outlet valve was closed. This yet again demonstrates just what the human error element can do even to a fairly cautious person and reinforces the fact that one must "stay awake" when dealing with gas

Sorry about that.

 

Personally I am convinced that this method carries virtually no risk, all one needs to carry is one refillable bottle and just a small calor bottle that can be used during the refilling period thus saving on weight.

 

I would hesitate to say that our method is the best way to do it but it is a pretty good starting point.

[aultymer]

"Pay for gas, drive to a reasonably isolated spot and close the filling valve on the bottle then lift the bottle from the vehicle and SLOWLY loosen the filling pipe from the bottle filling point just a LITTLE, wait for the gas to escape and slowly loosen the pipe some more until gas stops escaping and then remove the pipe altogether from the bottle and replace the bottle into the rear of the car and fasten it down. Job done. "

 

You now have a boot, and possibly a car, filled with gas up to the level of the boot sill.

Opening a door to enter the car will then trigger an interior light switch in the door frame - - -

[Syd]

aultymer

 

Sorry but you seem to have missed what the post states, No worries, Easilly done, I do it ALL of the time

 

"lift the bottle from the vehicle"

 

When you open the pipe the amount of gas released is something like ten times or so the amount released when you disconnect the filling gun on the forecourt

Of course with a motorhome and a fixed system then you won't have to do this

[rrf494g]

It is informative that posters who do not want to refill LPG bottles seem to "invent facts" as to why not. If you don't want to do it, and I don't want you to, then don't do it.

 

but

 

"Camping-gaz cylinders are not designed for propane" - My 907 bottle has the max weight of butane (3Kg) and the max weight of propane (2.50Kg) stamped on the bottle, round the base.

 

"You may buy the bottle but you don't buy the right to refill it" - Eh? we should ask Campingaz (Coleman) about this? I don't think campingaz has created a new legal framework for ownership nor do I think I would get a factual, un-biased response to the question.

 

The bottle is clearly designed to be refilled (as Campingaz to do it themselves). The question is then one of safety practice, something I'm very keen on, but based on a real understanding of risk/impacts and methods. I like to learn - I like to become competent. It's obvious really, but I take my safety and that of my family more seriously than Campingaz or Calor. They are interested in profit and not being sued (and no complaints from me). I am interested in not being hurt - but also not living my life in fear and being led by the nose by commmercial interests.

 

But perhaps I live life too dangerously - I put compatable ink in my canon printer (and have done for years) despite the dire warnings about blockage, failure and destruction.

[rupert123]

Syd - 2012-01-26 10:32 PM

 

 

Hi Frankkia

So here we go then, I think this strengthens my point regarding the risk of refillable/filling gas bottles. From your post we see that refillable bottles carry a significant risk when fitted in a fixed situation.

Your post highlights a risk that my setup does not have and it also highlights the human error element.

My only risk is when releasing the pressure from the pipe to the bottle and I only do this when well away from everyone else not on the campsite

Hence my point of giving good guidance and sensible warnings.

 

I am not talking about the campinggaz bottles here as hardly anyone uses them in caravans or motorhomes as far as I am aware I am simply talking about refilling either Calor gas bottles or refillable bottles

 

Syd you seem to be filling a bottle that is made to be self filled, my grip is those filling bottles that are not. I cannot see your setup does not carry the risk high lighted. If you start to fill without shutting the valve off the gas will simple come straight out again via the outlet. If you have your boot shut then it will fill with gas, pretty dodgy I would have thoiught. In fact a lot more dangerous than a fixed system when if you are daft enough to leave the valve open at least their is a chance nothing will happen.

[Syd]

 

Correct, there ia a lot of scaremongering going on out there

If you go to a recognised refillable gas bottle supplier/installer and they say that it can be done and will supply you with the correct parts to do the job then the risks will be minimised.

The point is always do this refilling business useing the correct fittings supplied by a recognised supplier, don't try to be clever and do a heath robinson job

 

[Derek Uzzell]

rupert123 - 2012-01-27 1:23 PM

 

Syd - 2012-01-26 10:32 PM

 

 

Hi Frankkia

So here we go then, I think this strengthens my point regarding the risk of refillable/filling gas bottles. From your post we see that refillable bottles carry a significant risk when fitted in a fixed situation.

Your post highlights a risk that my setup does not have and it also highlights the human error element.

My only risk is when releasing the pressure from the pipe to the bottle and I only do this when well away from everyone else not on the campsite

Hence my point of giving good guidance and sensible warnings.

 

I am not talking about the campinggaz bottles here as hardly anyone uses them in caravans or motorhomes as far as I am aware I am simply talking about refilling either Calor gas bottles or refillable bottles

 

Syd you seem to be filling a bottle that is made to be self filled, my grip is those filling bottles that are not. I cannot see your setup does not carry the risk high lighted. If you start to fill without shutting the valve off the gas will simple come straight out again via the outlet. If you have your boot shut then it will fill with gas, pretty dodgy I would have thoiught. In fact a lot more dangerous than a fixed system when if you are daft enough to leave the valve open at least their is a chance nothing will happen.

 

I note that the Gaslow's installation/filling instructions

 

http://www.gaslow.co.uk/pdf/Filling-Instructions-2011.pdf

 

include a UKLPG statement "FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES" that may be of interest, plus a warning "IMPORTANT - Always turn OFF cylinder valves BEFORE filling".

 

I've never owned/used a 'Gaslow-type' of refillable bottle, so the importance of closing the outlet valve prior to refilling was not something I'd given any thought to. Frankia's story suggests that not closing the outlet valve may lead to the regulator being damaged and, as a consequence, cause LPG to be fed to a leisure-vehicle's gas appliances at unregulated pressure which - with propane - is a lot!

 

As the Gaslow philosophy has been to install bottles iin the gas-locker and locate the filler-point elsewhere, as much as anything to avoid the need to have the locker-door open when refilling (There's a caveat " IMPORTANT - Opening the locker door to fill up may cause some stations to refuse filling... ...particularly in FRANCE"), I wonder how many people actually do close their bottle's outlet valve before refilling, or are even aware that this should be done.

 

It should only takes seconds to do this (at least with a motorhome) and could be carried out in advance of seeking an autogas service station, but it might be interesting to know how many people bother.

[Syd]

 

Hi Rupert

I agree that filling my bottle with the outlet valve open would fill the car with gas but I always turn my empty gas bottles off before I remove then from the caravan and place them in the car.

I check them again before I go to the garage for that very reason.

I do state in my post that I make sure that the outlet valve is turned off.

 

You are quiet right, and it is a good thing to highlight this simply because drawing attention to the hazzardous sections may make people be that bit more attentive to what myself and others are saying.

 

Thanks

[Syd]

 

Hi Rupert

I agree that filling my bottle with the outlet valve open would fill the car with gas but I always turn my empty gas bottles off before I remove then from the caravan and place them in the car.

I check them again before I go to the garage for that very reason.

I do state in my post that I make sure that the outlet valve is turned off.

 

You are quiet right, and it is a good thing to highlight this simply because drawing attention to the hazzardous sections may make people be that bit more attentive to what myself and others are saying.

 

Thanks

[rupert123]

Derek it had never really occured to me before that people may not know. I have a twin Gaslow setup and the instructions clearly tell you to do this. I seem to think it is printed on the bottles as well, cannot be sure without going to look though. When I had mine fitted the people who did the job also made sure I understood this. It is a possible danger point which should be pointed out.