Brambles Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Sounds more dangerous than filling your own bottles at home. And now I read people are discouraged from opening the locker doors to check if turned off because they might get refused allowing to fill up. Now maybe I am a tad thick here, but sounds a tad iffy and dangerous to me considering the risks if you forget to turn it off. So what is safer, someone who knows what he is doing refilling his commercially filled cylinders or someone with not much technical skills and forgetful filling up a gaslow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 We have had a Gaslow bottle for a number of years now and always turn off the bottle before commencing filling. We have to open the locker door to do this, and to fill the bottle, as the inlet is mounted inside - we have never had a problem with being allowed to fill it at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve928 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Brambles - 2012-01-27 8:42 PM Sounds more dangerous than filling your own bottles at home. And now I read people are discouraged from opening the locker doors to check if turned off because they might get refused allowing to fill up. Now maybe I am a tad thick here, but sounds a tad iffy and dangerous to me considering the risks if you forget to turn it off. So what is safer, someone who knows what he is doing refilling his commercially filled cylinders or someone with not much technical skills and forgetful filling up a gaslow. Precisely Brambles. With Gaslow et al. you rely on a mechanical device rather than a simple calculation and common sense to indicate 'cylinder full' and then you have to remember to follow the instructions on the cylinder and isolate it to avoid pumping gas into your motorhome should it overfill. I mean, if the cut-off was reliable then why the need to turn off the cylinder? The Gaslow bigots won't have it of course - they've spent a lot of money on their systems and will keep on defending them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Steady on guys The gas cut off device will NOT cut out/in if the outlet valve is open because if, as they say, the regulator can be damaged and fail should you leave the outlet valve open, then the bottle will never reach it's 85% full level will it (but your vehicle will) >:-) This is simply another frightening and, to some, a complicating factor, Common sense dictates that no matter what/where when filling a bottle you always close the outlet valve surely, :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Peter Apologies to you, we seem to have slipped away from your original post and diverted our attention to "bigger" things, I mean bigger bottles. Still though there is some relevance if only that we are currently bringing down to earth some of the white elephants about bottle filling that are being put up by the people who are against the practice. Apologies again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Steve928 - 2012-01-27 9:11 PM Brambles - 2012-01-27 8:42 PM Sounds more dangerous than filling your own bottles at home. And now I read people are discouraged from opening the locker doors to check if turned off because they might get refused allowing to fill up. Now maybe I am a tad thick here, but sounds a tad iffy and dangerous to me considering the risks if you forget to turn it off. So what is safer, someone who knows what he is doing refilling his commercially filled cylinders or someone with not much technical skills and forgetful filling up a gaslow. Precisely Brambles. With Gaslow et al. you rely on a mechanical device rather than a simple calculation and common sense to indicate 'cylinder full' and then you have to remember to follow the instructions on the cylinder and isolate it to avoid pumping gas into your motorhome should it overfill. I mean, if the cut-off was reliable then why the need to turn off the cylinder? The Gaslow bigots won't have it of course - they've spent a lot of money on their systems and will keep on defending them. You really should understand how the system works before posting stuff like this. The mechanical shut off device is a valve on top of the bottle and as i have pointed out, if you bothered to read through the thread, Gaslow are very clear with their instructions. The gas will cut off via a cut off float when the tank is 80% full, the self fillers without proper bottles just pump some gas in from a larger bottle, weigh it with a pair of kitchen scales and hope for the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Hi Rupert You are mostly correct except that there are other ways of knowing how full your bottle should be besides weighing it, providing you start with an empty bottle. People who are against the practice have every right to their opinion and to post their opinions on here just so long as they are factual, of course we ALL make mistakes and perhaps overlook some small but crucial fact but scaremongering is definately not on. By all means post your comments regardless of your views on the topic because we may ALL learn something that could make things safer for everyone, no one is infallable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aultymer Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Syd - "lift the bottle from the vehicle" !! Sorry Syd, I did miss that bit. How long a high pressure hose do you need to manage that? And I just could not be bothered with all that lifting. Hence my Gaslow - even if the 80% cut off can fail as the anti Gaslow brigade claim. Maybe they are worried that they wouldn't notice that a 10 ltre bottle is taking 20 litres from the pump!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 The problem with the gaslow system as I undertstand it, is if you have run out of gas there is no pressure in the vans pipework after the regulator. If you proceed to fill having forgotton to turn the outlet valve off, then liquid gas can splash up and get pushed out of the outlet valve under pressure and be forced along the pipes and through the regulator. It can also damage the regulator because of the increased pressure from filling, along with having liquid gas expanding in teh workings of the regulator. The main issue though is liquid passing to the outlet side of regulator and getting high pressure in the vans gas pipework to appliances. Then when you turn on on to light ....you know the rest. When transferring from one bottle to another by gravity feeding it is actually very dificult to overfill a bottle as any self filler will tell you. It is also very easy to have the bottle to be filled sitting on scales and watch the fill process and know when it is 80% filled. Scales can be calbrated very easily using a known weight, and is made even easier by the fact that the known weight of an empty bottle can be used to calibrated the scales for an empty bottle, and two empty bottles can be used to check the upper end of the used measurement range of the scales. Self fillers are checking the weight every time, and checking for free movement of LPG sloshing about and lifting a full cylinder. Gaslow fillers are relying on a float valve being reliable every time and never actually able to double check the fill level by weiging or by feel. Their only check being how much they have actually put in from the pump. But this does not allow for the build up of crud and impurities in the bottom of the cylinder usiing up space. So if the cut off valve was to progressively worson and sieze in a lower position, then would go unnoticed. I am playing the devil's advocate here to some extent, but all valid points for discussion I feel. As to self fillers, i can see an issue with some people thinking, what the heck, why don't I just put in a little more..85% or even 90%, it wil be fine. It probably will be, but I would hope they have the common semse to realise many professionals have done tests and 80% max is the safe level which allows for expansion of the gas, splashing about and using with bottle at an angle, along with any damage to the bottle such as being dented. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 There also seems to be the attitude from both sides what they have or do is safe. Lets get one thing correct here, we are working with high pressure LPG,. whether it is an on board refillable sytem or someone using commercially filled bottles, or self refilled bottles, all methods are not safe and have inherent dangers and risks. Knowing those risks will help to avoid them escalating into an accident, the biggest hopefully left as being giving oneself a hernia or some other personal injury when lifting a bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Brambles - 2012-01-28 12:06 AM Gaslow fillers are relying on a float valve being reliable every time and never actually able to double check the fill level by weiging or by feel. Thats what would concern me too. I haven't seen one, but as far as I know the gaslow float valve works like a toilet cistern float valve. And I have certainly known those fail. I guess it boils down to how competent the person is filling the cylinder. My guess is that a competent person carefully filling their own cylinders, is safer than someone totally relying on a gaslow float valve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 PS: anyone tried one of these? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-Standard-/320835100639?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D220882632982%252B220882632982%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5911908555872305441 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrf494g Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 "the self fillers without proper bottles just pump some gas in from a larger bottle, weigh it with a pair of kitchen scales and hope for the best." How do you know that? Why do you say that? The entire thread of discussion indicates that this just is not true. All posts have indicated the importance of safety. It really does not advance discussion to invent statements. If you have a view, despite the evidence of the thread, then you have the right to post it. I would defend that, but I think it's reasonable to ask where you get such a "fact" from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Peter James - 2012-01-28 9:33 AM PS: anyone tried one of these? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-Standard-/320835100639?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D220882632982%252B220882632982%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5911908555872305441 Yes - that's the type of adapter you'd need to refill a UK-standard 'Calor' propane cylinder with autogas, or to refill a Safefill refillable cylinder in countries that don't use the UK autogas-pump filler-gun bayonet-type connection. The e-bay product description says it all really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Hi aultymer Absolutely no problem with missed bits, I do it all of the time easilly done I tell myself. The hose that I have from the filler to the bottle is about 2ft 6ins long. With regards to "all that lifting" what did you do for gas before you had your gaslow system fitted, you had bottles that you had to get refilled so you did the lifting thing the same as everyone else, especially the same as all tuggers do so it is absolutely no difference for us and many motorhome owners. The 85% shut off valve is very very unlikely to fail, this is a hazzardous product that we are dealing with and the safety governing people that govern the design of these things know that and so I would bet that the shut off design is designed to be very simple and practically fail proof or it wouldn't be allowed. Can you imagine the scrutiny it would have come under when it was first proposed, the Anti brigade would have almost had a fit, the bottled gas suppliers would have been against it, the lobbying against it would have put the second world war to shame so I think we can safely say that it is unlikely to fail. Brambles himself says that many professionals have done tests on the 85% rule and the cutoff would have to be a part of those tests wouldnt they It is like saying that a petrol pumps on the forecourt would fail to cut out when your car petrol tank was full and continue pumping petrol all over the forecourt, it simply doesn't happen does it Hi Brambles As above I believe that the 85% valve is very very unlikely to fail. Seriously now, just how much crud do you think will build up inside a gas bottle. a shovel full, half a shovel full, I believe it will be hardly any at all. Even if it was half a shovel full what would the results of that be, it would simply become a part of the 85% full so it would not matter a fig would it, the cut off valve would still operate when the fuel reaches the 85% level but you would simply have that bit less gas in the bottle, the same would apply when weighing the bottle because you should certainly have the weight of an empty bottle to work from in the beginning because I believe the weight of the empty bottle is stamped onto the bottle anyway (May be wrong there as I don't fill nonrefillable bottles) but can we really expect to get that much crud inside a bottle, I don't believe so, where would this crud come from. Brambles This is why I think good guidance should be given, you have raised a couple of good points that are very worthy of thought, as has Derek and others, you say some people think that what they have or do is safe, well why not set out what is "Best practice" "as safe as one can get" and shoot down the scaremongering and misconceptions once and for all Between yourself and Derek and others there is so much knollege and experience this should be a piece of cake to work through. Remember though that there are now three seperate discussions going on here that are getting intermixed and sowing confusion and highlighting many misconceptions Firstly there is the Gaslow system that may people have in various forms Second there is the refillable bottles Third there is the filling of "non refillable" bottles Plenty to occupy us all for a while there Please don't think that I am attacking anyone because I am not I want us all to learn from this and hopefully, at the same time help each other too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Peter James - 2012-01-28 9:33 AM PS: anyone tried one of these? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-Standard-/320835100639?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D220882632982%252B220882632982%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5911908555872305441 Hi Peter Yes that is a good item but it has the drawback in that you cannot fill a bottle outside your vehicle on a forecourt, they simply would not allow it. One has to have the bottle inside your vehicle and fill it through a proper filler via a proper hose to be sure of being able to do it. Each step that you take away from refillable systems/bottles has a considerable impact on the risk factor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 rrf494g - 2012-01-28 10:11 AM "the self fillers without proper bottles just pump some gas in from a larger bottle, weigh it with a pair of kitchen scales and hope for the best." How do you know that? Why do you say that? The entire thread of discussion indicates that this just is not true. All posts have indicated the importance of safety. It really does not advance discussion to invent statements. If you have a view, despite the evidence of the thread, then you have the right to post it. I would defend that, but I think it's reasonable to ask where you get such a "fact" from. Exactly right and the more people that contribute to this thread the better, all of the contributors to this thread so far do not know everything, especially myself, so put your points, your concerns and your questions even if it is shown to be either right or incorrect at least you will have been responsible for clearing up one problem one way or another and no one is going to think any worse of you for it (not fecking much :D ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 rrf494g - 2012-01-28 10:11 AM "the self fillers without proper bottles just pump some gas in from a larger bottle, weigh it with a pair of kitchen scales and hope for the best." How do you know that? Why do you say that? The entire thread of discussion indicates that this just is not true. All posts have indicated the importance of safety. It really does not advance discussion to invent statements. If you have a view, despite the evidence of the thread, then you have the right to post it. I would defend that, but I think it's reasonable to ask where you get such a "fact" from. I got that 'fact' from the self fillers on this thread, I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were telling the truth. I would like to know how else you personally know how much gas you have put in. It is one thing filling from a pump into an empty bottle, at least you can see, but quite another filling without a gauge, so how do you manage without weighing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-28 10:21 AM Peter James - 2012-01-28 9:33 AM PS: anyone tried one of these? http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-Standard-/320835100639?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D220882632982%252B220882632982%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D5911908555872305441 Hi Peter Yes that is a good item but it has the drawback in that you cannot fill a bottle outside your vehicle on a forecourt, they simply would not allow it. One has to have the bottle inside your vehicle and fill it through a proper filler via a proper hose to be sure of being able to do it. Each step that you take away from refillable systems/bottles has a considerable impact on the risk factor Why would they not allow it, because it is damn dangerous. It is not a good idea, it is stupid and these things should be withdrawn from sale. Just another way of allowing the 'lets do this on the cheap' crowd to put themselves and others at risk. The only way to fill your own bottles is to buy Gaslow or similar, people may not like that because it costs them money but if anyone cannot afford a proper system then just buy filled bottles. Why take the risk just to save a few pennies a year. I did not buy my system just to save money, in fact doubt I will see my outlay back, but to save problems in europe when I need more gas. I would love to see a self filler at at French filling station try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrf494g Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 " The 85% shut off valve (in gaslow tanks) is very very unlikely to fail, this is a hazzardous product that we are dealing with and the safety governing people that govern the design of these things know that and so I would bet that the shut off design is designed to be very simple and practically fail proof or it wouldn't be allowed. " "Practically fail-proof" is the key phrase. What does that mean? I'm not trying to undermine gaslow products but "manufacturing for low failure rates" is something I have been involved with. Until the real failure rates of the float valve (in terms hours in use, fill frequency etc) are known and published, the statement above is too simple. I know the costs of making a (relatively simple) product so that the failure rate in use, is in the single digit per million range. I was involved with the manufacture of the medical devices used to clean out arteries in heart surgery. You don't want many of them to fail and get stuck in use. I can not believe that anywhere near the cost involved to assure "extremely" low failure rates was/is spent by gaslow. That's not to say that the product is not "safe for use". It does mean that there will be an occasional rare failure due to faulty component supply (probably) that gets incorprated ito the build, and causes a later failure after testing. This is not the end of the world as long as the proper safety procedures are followed, the product failure will not cause a disaster. I don't think I am making a nerdy point here. Just because you've bought an "officially" approved product does not mean it is automatically "perfectly safe". Just because a procedure is not recommended by a company does not automatically make it "vastly dangerous". In either case I think you have to understand what is going on, what the risks/impacts are and take proper safety procautions. I still think the most dangerous thing any of us do is to stand on a service station forecourt as someone is filling their car with petrol. It should be banned! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrf494g Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 "the self fillers without proper bottles just pump some gas in from a larger bottle, weigh it with a pair of kitchen scales and hope for the best." "I got that 'fact' from the self fillers on this thread, I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that they were telling the truth. I would like to know how else you personally know how much gas you have put in. It is one thing filling from a pump into an empty bottle, at least you can see, but quite another filling without a gauge, so how do you manage without weighing?" I'll answer these posts as I can only think they were meant as a positive contribution to this fascinating debate. "Hope for the Best" - I have not seen this from any poster on this thread - which one do you refer to? "Without a gauge" - I use a spring balance - which is a form of gauge - I weigh the bottle before filling which itself is a safety check on the balance, as I know the weight empty and I only ever fill from completely empty. Note that there is no safety check on an autogas outlet before you use it. You just have to trust that the last person did not damage it. "Without weighing" - I happen to think weighing is a better measure as it checks what has actully gone into the bottle. An autogas gauge only tells you what "might" have left the pump if the gauge is accurate. Even so, as has been posted earlier, after all has been shut down, the swirl of liquid in the bottle gives a second check to the vapour space in the bottle - and I only fill to 75% by weight. That's not to say I think autogas filling is too gangerous. I use them myself to fill Safefill gas bottles - yes, on the forecourt with no problems. I just recognise the safety factors in various procedures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Hi Again Rupert I have to agree with you that filling a gas bottle on the floor on the forecourt is dangerous because I cannot see how anyone can have a proper filler conection to the bottle for the filling nozzle to fix to but I would love to be told how that is done. Even so, if this can be done and the filler overfilled the bottle, say to absolutely full, and then removed the filler nozzle where is the danger on the forecourt coming from. The proper filler conection is securely fastened to the bottle or it would have leaked as soon as the filling process started, and when the filling is complete the bottle will/should have been turned off so where is the danger on the forecourt actually coming from. So "Damn dangerous" to the forecourt it is not. The only way to fill bottles is safely and I firmly believe that the system that I use is at least as safe as a gaslow system. It has some advantages and some disadvantages over gaslow systems Scroll back up and read it then come back and tell me where it is highly dangerous, some people do this to save money but most I would suggest are like you and I, they do it so that they never run out of gas and this alone suggests to me that these people will want to do it safely. I have filled my bottles at gas stations in France, Germany, Spain, Austria, Switzerland, UK, and Italy where the attendant is the only person allowed to serv gas with absolutely no problems at all. We have got to stop saying that this is "Highly Dangerous" "Damn Dangerous" and so on because if done with the correct components it is NOT "Highly Dangerous" or "Damn Dangerous" it simply has some risks that are no greater than those we face everytime we face the dangers of going onto a garage forecourt. Risks but different risks and not neccessarilly more dangerous risks Hi again rrf494g Nothing is ever perfect in this world but to think that cutoff valves are going to fail is pushing things a bit, cut off valves, as we have already said WILL have come under a great deal of scrutiny before they were allowed onto the market and failure rates are probably going to be about as frequent as a gas bottle splitting open through being shaken, would love to see any figures on failure rates, there probably isn't any though. This isn't just a gaslow thing though it is also a refillable bottle problem and it is worldwide and because of this the amount of money spent overall on development will be enormous, you can bet that they will all use more or less the same cutoff valve system because it has been proven to work. So in reality I believe that failure of the cut off valve can be discounted, but again if I am wrong please show me why So where are we now , as I see it from the previous posts Refilling fixed refillable systems useing the proper parts carries some risk but is not inherantly dangerous Refilling refillable bottles useing the proper parts carries some risk but is not inherantly dangerous Re filling ordinary gas bottles useing the proper parts and proper checking procedures carries some additional risk but again is not inherantly dangerous. What we now need is opinions to be expressed stating if this is correct or not and why Once we reach agreement wether the above is correct or not through further discussion if neccessary all we need to do is to set out what are the best safety procedures that we all need to carry out for each of the systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerC Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Steve928 - 2012-01-27 9:11 PM The Gaslow bigots won't have it of course - they've spent a lot of money on their systems and will keep on defending them. Ahem....who are you calling a bigot? That sort of comment is surely not necessary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 The gaslow biggots have a good reliable system as far as I know, every system has it's advantages and disadvantages it is at least as safe as useing refillable bottles. As far as I can see the gaslow systems only weak point is the filler forgetting to close the outlet valve before refilling. Human error. Both gaslow and refillable bottles are slightly safer than refilling ordinary non refillable gas bottles To get a fuller discussion we should all try not to get too entrenched in our opinions and be open to other points of view. Two heads are always better than one, even if the other head belongs to an idiot because even an idiot may spot something that we all have missed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-28 10:12 AM It is like saying that a petrol pumps on the forecourt would fail to cut out when your car petrol tank was full and continue pumping petrol all over the forecourt, it simply doesn't happen does it well it does sometimes. I have had that happen where the cut off has failed to work, petrol on the floor, but not much because you see it overflowing and release the trigger. The point about the Gaslow cut off failing is that you would not be able to see the tank was being overfilled, like you can when petrol spews out of the filler pipe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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