Gas cylinder refilling

[CliveH]

Forgive tugger posting - but having a Disco V8 dual fuel, LPG/petrol and being a true advocate of Autogas as being particulate free and half the price of diesel and a wasteproduct of fuel production that if we don't use it, it just gets "flaired off" on the rigs - I have some understanding of its advantages and disadvantages.

 

My understanding is that any refillable system has to be "plumbed in" - and whilst this is not an industry/regulatory requirement because as I understand it - there is not a lot of legislation governing this area, it is a sensible rule that is effectively (or in-effectively if the filler station staff do not give a damn or are not properly trained) put into practice via the filling stations insurance.

 

What has happened is that the Insurance companies, fearing what happened in Australia where families passed down gas bottles like some sort of family heirloom such that some were seen with dents, rusty patches etc. and would certainly not pass any integrity test/inspection, they have stated that filling separate cylinders/bottles will NOT be coverred by the insurance policy for the Filling Station.

 

This is why most Autogas filling points have a notice to this effect.

 

I think the whole thing boils down to the old adage -"Just because you can, does not mean that you should."

 

Those people that fill separate cylinders should ponder the fact that if there is a problem at a filling station, then it is my understanding that they will become personally liable for any damage.

 

As others have said - is it really sensible to put yourself and others at such risk just to safe what can only be a few £'s ???

[Derek Uzzell]

CliveH - 2012-02-06 12:02 AM

 

...My understanding is that any refillable system has to be "plumbed in" - and whilst this is not an industry/regulatory requirement because as I understand it - there is not a lot of legislation governing this area, it is a sensible rule that is effectively (or in-effectively if the filler station staff do not give a damn or are not properly trained) put into practice via the filling stations insurance...

 

As far as I'm aware, the position in the UK is that there is (as you've said) no industry/regulatory imperative for refillable LPG containers to be 'plumbed in'. I would agree with you that a fully-plumbed-in refillable system to provide a leisure-vehicle with 'domestic' LPG via an autogas pump (eg. a fixed gas tank, or 'fixed' bottles as Gaslow advocates) will be the safest and least controversial approach, but alternatives won't automatically break UK regulations.

 

Ignoring user-refilling by decanting LPG from one bottle to another, it needs to be emphasised that autogas is marketed as a vehicle fuel and that the delivery system (autogas pump, filler-gun, etc.) is designed to refill gas reservoirs of the type fitted to your Land Rover. (In fact, following an accident in France fairly recently, the question arose there as to whether autogas could legally be employed for any purpose other than fuelling a vehicle.)

 

Taking the ubiquitous Gaslow canister as an example, having secured the canister firmly in a motorhome's gas-locker, I can see little difference safety-wise in refilling via a filler-point within the locker or remote from the locker. Nor, can I see much difference safety-wise in refilling a locker-stored Gaslow canister via an adapter screwed on to the canister's inlet (as pictured in recent MMM Gaslow adverts).

 

And what does "secured firmly" mean? It seems to be the case in France that refillable bottles need to have a metal means of securing them in the leisure-vehicle's gas-locker - either a metal strap or bolts - but I don't think there's a similar UK requirement.

 

A 'plus' that the remote filler-point approach has over other refilling alternatives is that it disguises the fact that a bottle-based system is being filled - essentially, that an autogas filling-station attendant may be led to believe that a vehicle's LPG fuel tank is being filled and won't object to bottles being refilled instead. Obviously (as far as an attendant's alarm and objections are concerned) if we move to a scenario where someone hauls a couple of battered Calor bottles out of his/her car's boot and asks the attendant for assistance to refill them via a DIY-bodged-up adapter, it's quite another matter.

 

Galow's informational webpage (that I've referred to before) carries this advice from UKLPG

 

"FILLING OF USER OWNED, PORTABLE REFILLABLE LPG CYLINDERS AT AUTOGAS REFUELLING SITES

 

It is our advice that user owned, portable LPG cylinders should not be refilled at autogas refuelling sites.

 

Vessels which are attached to a vehicle for heating or cooking (on camper vans or similar) present similar risks on filling to those for propulsion purposes and may be permitted to be re-filled at autogas refuelling sites provided they:

 

• remain in-situ for refilling; and

 

• are fitted with a device to physically prevent filling beyond 80%; and

 

• are connected to a fixed filling connector which is not part of the

vessel.

 

UK Health and Safety law, particularly the Health and Safety at Work Act, the Dangerous Substances and Explosive Atmospheres Regulations and the Carriage of Dangerous Goods and Use of Transportable Pressure Equipment Regulations, impose significant duties on the site operator to ensure safety. Autogas refuelling sites are places of work and their personnel have responsibility for safety to everyone on the site, including the general public. They authorise the flow of gas from the dispenser and they may be considered, in law, the filler.

 

Safe filling of LPG cylinders requires appropriate expertise and/or equipment. Staff at autogas refuelling sites cannot fulfil statutory obligations as they have neither.

 

Were there to be any accident the site operator could be liable to prosecution.

 

This view has been confirmed in the Minutes of the HSE Petroleum Enforcement

Liaison Group meeting of 7th July 2005 which states “PLAs should consider issuing a prohibition notice if their inspectors discover a site which allows members of the public to refill gas cylinders”."

 

I've absolutely no quarrel with what you've said, though I'm doubtful that forum members who use autogas to refill LPG containers that are not 'plumbed in' to their leisure-vehicle's gas system as UKLPG defines will change their minds/ways as a consequence of your advice.

[CliveH]

And I agree with all that you say.

 

The point I would emphasise is the insurance angle. The filling station may or may not employ people that care one way or another. But the fact remains that from the information I have seen, the insurance for the whole site is invalid if the owner/manager allows separate gas bottles to be filled.

 

I too think this is crazy and the lack of sensible regulation woeful.

 

One other point is that using autogas which is a not Liquid Propane Gas but Liguid Petrolium Gas in a gas cylinder can have some interesting effects in cold weather as it is essentially a mixture of Propane and Butane.

 

Presonally I am happy to have a fully authorised and regularly checked autogas system for cheap fuel in my Discovery - but wild horses would not get me to use it in an old separate cylinder.

 

The thought of some people doing this to save a few quid appalls me - especially if the pitch up next to me! 8-) (lol)

[rupert123]

CliveH - 2012-02-06 12:43 PM

 

And I agree with all that you say.

 

The point I would emphasise is the insurance angle. The filling station may or may not employ people that care one way or another. But the fact remains that from the information I have seen, the insurance for the whole site is invalid if the owner/manager allows separate gas bottles to be filled.

 

I too think this is crazy and the lack of sensible regulation woeful.

 

One other point is that using autogas which is a not Liquid Propane Gas but Liguid Petrolium Gas in a gas cylinder can have some interesting effects in cold weather as it is essentially a mixture of Propane and Butane.

 

Presonally I am happy to have a fully authorised and regularly checked autogas system for cheap fuel in my Discovery - but wild horses would not get me to use it in an old separate cylinder.

 

The thought of some people doing this to save a few quid appalls me - especially if the pitch up next to me! 8-) (lol)

 

Clive while I agree that the only way is a proper plumbed in system I am a little mystified when you say autogas is differant from bottle LPG. Autogas sold in the UK is purely propane not a mix, this is one reason I always fill with UK gas before any euro trip.

[Derek Uzzell]

A definition of LPG is provided here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liquefied_petroleum_gas

 

Regarding 'autogas', the butane/propane ratio is not standardised internationally, as shown here:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25932&posts=16

 

There have been forum discussions in the past about the effects of cold-weather motorhome 'domestic' usage of high-butane-content autogas but, unless, say, French, Spanish or Greek autogas were being employed on skiing trips, it's debatable how genuinely limiting this is for UK motorcaravanners.

[CliveH]

Hi Rupert - I think Dereks Wiki link confirms that Autogas is part Propane - part Butane.

 

Certainly the stuff in my vehicle has some Butane in it because in the Summer when ambient temps are well above freezing I have no problem starting on LPG. However, in cold weather periods you cannot start on LPG you have to start on petrol and let the engine heat up a bit before you switch over.

 

The LPG dual fuel system on a vehicle differs to a domestic type system in that the LPG is fed to a vaporiser under pressure as a liguid. The Vapouriser is plumbed into the cooling system so that it is heated to a constant temp such that the LPG vaporises in a uniform manor. If the engine is not warmed up when it is as cold as we have had lately then the LPG cannot form a gas.

 

There is a fair bit of talk amongst Autogas anoraks that the ratio of Butane to Propane in differing providers seems to vary. I filled up in the west country with Flogas the other day and had to get the engine really up to temp before it would run smoothly on gas.

 

Do not have this problem with Shell or Calor gas. So I can only assume the ratio of constituents differs.

[Derek Uzzell]

CliveH - 2012-02-06 5:08 PM

 

Hi Rupert - I think Dereks Wiki link confirms that Autogas is part Propane - part Butane.

 

Certainly the stuff in my vehicle has some Butane in it because in the Summer when ambient temps are well above freezing I have no problem starting on LPG. However, in cold weather periods you cannot start on LPG you have to start on petrol and let the engine heat up a bit before you switch over.

 

The LPG dual fuel system on a vehicle differs to a domestic type system in that the LPG is fed to a vaporiser under pressure as a liguid. The Vapouriser is plumbed into the cooling system so that it is heated to a constant temp such that the LPG vaporises in a uniform manor. If the engine is not warmed up when it is as cold as we have had lately then the LPG cannot form a gas.

 

There is a fair bit of talk amongst Autogas anoraks that the ratio of Butane to Propane in differing providers seems to vary. I filled up in the west country with Flogas the other day and had to get the engine really up to temp before it would run smoothly on gas.

 

Do not have this problem with Shell or Calor gas. So I can only assume the ratio of constituents differs.

 

To the best of my knowledge rupert123's observations were essentially correct.

 

There is a tendency for people to treat "LPG" as a synonym for "autogas", but "LPG" can be applied to 100% butane gas, or 100% propane gas or any mixture of the two. The Wikipedia entry (like so many of them) is ambiguous, so I offer another link that is not:

 

http://www.flogas.co.uk/81/what-is-lpg-gas

 

My impression has always been that autogas marketed in the UK is propane (or close enough to 100% propane for the proportion that isn't not to mattter). The tanks at my local Countrywide autogas filling station have "propane" written on them in large letters and I've no reason to doubt there's other than propane in them.

 

More telling is that, if I connect to my motorhome's gas system to a Calor propane bottle, or to a user-refillable bottle completely refilled from a Countrywide tank, the gauge on my gas-regulator shows a very similar high pressure reading. Conversely, if I top up a bottle with French autogas (that's acknowledged as having a high butane-to-propane ratio) the gauge's reading is dramatically reduced.

 

If it's generally believed by owners of dual-fuel vehicles that UK autogas is a varying mixture of butane and propane and, in your case, that Shell and Calor autogas differs significantly from the Flogas stuff, then the logical approach would be to ask the suppliers to rule on the subject. There is a comment on the following link

 

http://www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/lpg-and-cng/

 

from an LPGA (now called UKLPG) spokesman that quotes around 95% propane for UK autogas, which is near enough all-propane as far as I'm concerned.

 

I'm not particularly surprised that your vehicle can start on LPG in summer but not in winter, but I'm not convinced this is merely because there's butane in UK autogas. Cold motors tend to be less eager to start in cold weather than hot whatever the fuel - it's in their bloody-minded job description.

[rupert123]

Clive like Derek I do not believe your car not starting has anything to do with gas mixture. To my knowledge one company supplies both Shell and Calor, not sure about Flogas but maybe the same. Certainly the mix in UK is at or very close to 100% propane. I do know I have no problem lighting my M/H gas at temperatures way below zero, this to would indicate 100% propane.

[CliveH]

You guys may well be correct - but I can confirm that as my vehicle normally starts on petrol and automatically switches to LPG when the revs fall from 2000 rpm, when it is on Shell or Calor autogas the change over is smooth even in very cold weather.

 

However on Flogas, unless the engine is warm, when it flicks over it is like the engine is being choked - almost like driving with the choke out - if you can remember manual chokes! :-D

 

I was told that this is because Flogas has more of a mixture of Propane and Butane.

 

I can also confirm that Calor autogas has a higher level of stenching agent in it than either Shell or Flogas. So I am not sure they can be from the same source?

 

I am just outside of the Countrywide autogas network and have never used it as I am not a member.

 

Interestingly you mention how European Autogas differs in its ration and so this affects the pressure. This would perhaps explain the problem I often have when filling up in Spain after a ferry journey to Santander. Even tho' there is little gas in the tanks when I go to fill up, the pressure in the filler pump is too low to overcome the residual pressure in my tanks.

 

This was overcome in a dramatic way in Santander by a Spannish guy wondering over and ramming a screwdriver into the filler on my vehicle to let off the pressure. To say I was surprised was an understatment. But it did the trick and he explained that "UK systems work on higher pressure".

 

Presumably this could be due to the prop/but ration.

[bolero boy]

rupert123 - 2012-01-31 10:32 AM

 

bolero boy - 2012-01-31 10:21 AM

 

Syd - 2012-01-31 10:02 AM

What would you do if you ran out of gas.

Same as most exchangers, including me (at present)........get another cylinder on the campsite or nearest town.

In fact, with two cylinders, you can get the replacement when the first one empties so you dont actually run out of gas.

It is easy with Calor, as it is with the popular exchanges in france and Spain. It is the cost per kg which is off putting for some.

Lifting a 6kg cylinder shouldnt present a problem for most.

 

This thread now seems to have gone full circle but this post seems strange. Since when has it been easy to just exchange cylinders around europe? The only easy was is fixed refillables.

Rupert, sorry but i didn't make it clear that I meant exchanging with the appropriate cylinder/adaptor.

Many campers stick with French or Spanish exchange cylinders during an extended stay as the supply is very readily available and also cheap.

I wouldn't suggest an arsenal of cylinders for all of europe but Spain/france seem to be the most popular destinations and very many survive long term without refillables.

Sorry i wasn't a bit clearer.