Fuel costs

[Mickydripin]

With the price of fuel now would it be better going for a petrol motorhome and then getting it converted to gas can you get a diesel converted to gas if so how much would it cost.

 

Looking at the price of diesel where i live it has now gone up ten pence a ltr more than petrol.

Why has diesel gone up so much when it used to be cheeper than petrol.

Are we paying out more so that they can reduce the price of petrol and make it look good for the goverment.

Or is it a fiddle by the petrol stations.

 

In France diesel is much cheeper than petrol why has it turned around the other way in this country is there anyone on here that can give me an answer?.

 

There are a lot of questions here but they are questions that need answers so that the price of fuel does not drive a lot of us off the road.

 

Mike.

[Brian Kirby]

At present prices it would only pay to get a petrol engined van converted to gas if you do far larger annual mileages than most vans ever cover. Besides which, there are very few, if any, suitable vehicles with a petrol engine option.

Diesels cannot be converted to run on gas.

Diesel is more expensive in UK due to tax. Diesel fuel is now taxed higher, to dissuade people from buying diesel engined vehicles, due to their higher emissions.

Diesel is cheaper in France etc because that is how the French etc have decided to tax it. To some extent, because oil is traded in US Dollars, the price in UK versus France also depends on the relative exchange rates of Sterling/Dollar and the Euro/Dollar. Recently, Sterling has lost more international value than the Euro, and this has additionally inflated UK pump prices.

Are the oil companies fiddling? Of course, but no more than they always have. :-)

Whether it would ever pay to change vehicles to take advantage of a cheaper fuel, depends on whether one does sufficient annual mileage to get back the cost of changing through lower fuel costs, and whether governments maintain the present tax advantage for the cheaper fuel. If sufficient people changed to gas, the tax on LPG would inevitably be increased, because the Exchequer would otherwise lose income.

On the whole, IMO, there is no point changing vans to chase cheap fuel, but if one is in any case changing vans, it would obviously pay to look for the one with the lowest fuel consumption. The only way out is to give up driving, or at least 'vanning! :-(

[paulmold]

Brian Kirby - 2011-11-26 1:43 PM

 

Diesel is more expensive in UK due to tax. Diesel fuel is now taxed higher, to dissuade people from buying diesel engined vehicles, due to their higher emissions.

 

Has the tax level recently changed, I've heard nothing. If you go back 6 weeks or so the difference between petrol and diesel was only 3 or 4 pence , now it is anything between 9 and 12 pence. Thats what I would like explained.

 

On a more optimistic note, I have a BP Bunkering card for diesel and every week I get sent the price I will be paying the following week which has been increasing each week. The price I will pay next week is to go down 3p per litre so hopefully this is something we may see at the pumps.

[rupert123]

Brian is wrong on one point, a diesel can be converted to use gas, however because it only runs on a portion of gas is not worth doing. As to price no idea why it is more expensive as it is cheaper to produce. Cannot see it is al down to tax though for reasons someone has already suggested.

[Robinhood]

Historically, it was always stated that the price of diesel tended to rise in Winter, due to the increased demand for (the very similar in the "cracking" hierarchy) central heating oil causing a blip in the market.

 

Empirically, I've always thought that this (winter trend) seemed to be true, but in searching the web to find evidence of it (in historic pricing) I've as yet failed to find anything conclusive.

[paulmold]

Brian Kirby - 2011-11-26 1:43 PM

 

. Diesel fuel is now taxed higher,

 

This statement is incorrect - fuel duty is identical on both petrol and diesel at 58.95 p

[Brian Kirby]

paulmold - 2011-11-26 3:33 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2011-11-26 1:43 PM

 

. Diesel fuel is now taxed higher,

 

This statement is incorrect - fuel duty is identical on both petrol and diesel at 58.95 p

 

Why so it is Paul. My mistake. Thank you for pointing that out.

[BGD]

Brian Kirby - 2011-11-26 4:02 PM

 

paulmold - 2011-11-26 3:33 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2011-11-26 1:43 PM

 

. Diesel fuel is now taxed higher,

 

This statement is incorrect - fuel duty is identical on both petrol and diesel at 58.95 p

 

Why so it is Paul. My mistake. Thank you for pointing that out.

 

 

 

 

 

But VAT is added as a further final tax, to the total pre-VAT total costs, as a fixed percentage, so if the cost of diesel is higher before VAT, then the amount of VAT paid will be higher.

Thus UK diesel is, in terms of total taxes paid by the retail customer, taxed more highly.

 

[paulmold]

Yes but if it didn't cost more in the first place (which by virtue of the fact it is cheaper to produce, it shouldn't) then the VAT would be lower.

[BGD]

paulmold - 2011-11-26 4:16 PM

 

Yes but if it didn't cost more in the first place (which by virtue of the fact it is cheaper to produce, it shouldn't) then the VAT would be lower.

 

 

 

Ummmm, yes but it does, so it isn't...........

[Mel B]

rupert123 - 2011-11-26 2:25 PM

 

Brian is wrong on one point, a diesel can be converted to use gas, however because it only runs on a portion of gas is not worth doing. As to price no idea why it is more expensive as it is cheaper to produce. Cannot see it is al down to tax though for reasons someone has already suggested.

 

Today I saw a double-decker bus which 'advertised' the fact that it was a duel fuel one, running on diesel and gas, so there must be some benefit in it otherwise why would they do it?

[Patricia]

Mickydripin: In France diesel is much cheeper than petrol why has it turned around the other way in this country is there anyone on here that can give me an answer?.

 

Many years ago diesel in France was much, much cheaper than their petrol but my French neighbour then told me that the French government intended to raise the price of diesel by a certain amount each year until it reached parity with "essence". They are still doing it, fairly slowly it seems, perhaps fearful of the lorry community? In England, of course, with diesel being the higher price, each hike means a rise in prices for all goods - hence the rise in inflation.

[colin]

Mel B - 2011-11-26 6:24 PM

 

rupert123 - 2011-11-26 2:25 PM

 

Brian is wrong on one point, a diesel can be converted to use gas, however because it only runs on a portion of gas is not worth doing. As to price no idea why it is more expensive as it is cheaper to produce. Cannot see it is al down to tax though for reasons someone has already suggested.

 

Today I saw a double-decker bus which 'advertised' the fact that it was a duel fuel one, running on diesel and gas, so there must be some benefit in it otherwise why would they do it?

 

Many buss' are dual fuel, but as they cover a 'few' more miles than the average MH they can make it pay.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Sounds pessimistic I know, but we are in the "end game" as far as fossil fuels are concerned, so diesel / petrol prices will continue to go up and up, end of. I remember saying when it hits £1 a litre I was packing it in.

 

As for derv being higher I was told it was due to less refining capacity in the UK, don't know if that is true, but what is certain is we aint going to see at at £1 a litre, or even £1.25 litre ever again. Maybe time to dust off the tent.

[Patricia]

We used to have a panel van conversion several years ago which only returned 19 - 20 mpg (petrol) so we investigated, both in the UK and in France, converting it to gas. We calculated that we would have to do well over 30k miles to even pay for the conversion. In the end we sold the van and bought a diesel (28 - 30 mpg).

[Colin Leake]

We spend a great deal of time touring round in our motorhome normally staying for 3 nights at each location. This time we have reduced the milage we will travel by giving Scotland a miss this year and staying 4 nights rather than 3 at each location. I reckon we will enjoy ourselves just as much and save more on fuel than the price has gone up.

[Madmaggott]

Before we bought our van we deliberated for a while about the running costs as it was evident that the price of derv would continue to rise for the foreseeable future due to the government's policy on tax.  We decided that if we were going to worry about the cost of filling up the tank then we shouldn't buy one.  Yes it is very expensive to fill up but we have chosen to holiday in this way so I for one refuse to let the price of derv mar my enjoyment. 

When I can no longer 'fill up and forget it' I will sell the van.

Everyone suffers in some respect due to fuel costs but we are fortunate to be able to take it or leave it.

Of course I am hoping that the planned 3p tax rise in January will be shelved :-D

 

[Mike B.]

Originally diesel fuel was a bi product of producing petrol from crude oil. This encouraged everybody to buy diesel vehicles as not only was it cheaper than petrol it also gave approx 50% more mpg and the engines lasted longer.

However, once we had all been encouraged to buy diesel vehicles, the bi product was insuficient to fulfil demand and the oil companies had to start making diesel as a full product to fulfill this shortfall. Consequently, as it was no longer a bi-product they could claim it costs £XXXs to produce in these quantities and thus put the price up. Add to that the duty, plus the tax (on both the product and the duty!!!) and suddenly diesel costs more than petrol-The powers that be wouldn't want us getting extra mpg from our diesel engines and thus less tax as they would get from us filling up with petrol more frequently would they?

Bear in mind that duty is fixed and tax is a %-consequently if base price goes up, you then add duty then add VAT at 20% now.

 

Not wanting to teach my granny to suck eggs, but if you are not happy with this and haven't already done so, please sign the Fair Fuel Campaign as soon as possible to try and stop the 3p per litre increase in duty (3.6p inc tax!) that is due to come into force in January 2012

 

Mike

[Brambles]

Also becuase of the massive increase in the number of diesel vehicles and domestic consumption there is a short fall in the UK of refining capacity for diesel so we have to import some and this puts the price up. It is actually a worldwide shortage of refining capacity and the laws of suply and demand affect the price. When there is a shortage the price goes up as we have to bid more to aquire the imported diesel we need.

[flicka]

There are just a few suppositions on this thread.

The main reasons Diesel prices are higher in the UK.

1 – USA & UK refineries were mainly built when Petrol was the predominant fuel & designed to cater for that market. This situation has now changed significantly, in the UK Diesel vehicles have increased dramatically (partly private users, but mainly increased commercial transport) & the USA imports huge volumes of Gas Oil for its Domestic Winter Heating Fuel. Gas Oil / Heating Oil & Diesel are basic the same, (all being taken at the same stage of hydrocarbon “cracking”), except for their individual Excise Duty levy.

2 - European markets have always been predominantly Diesel/Gas Oil & refineries were designed for their home markets.

3- The USA winter demand for Gas Oil can never be supplied by their own refining capacity, as it is now virtually impossible to build a new Refinery within the USA, due to their current legislation. So they have to source from the "Rotterdam" trading market, pushing up the global prices.

4- IMO the situation is unlikely to change in the near future as most of the Oil Majors have sold off or are trying to dispose/mothball their Refineries.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2010/02/24/europe-refinery-idUKLDE61N17L20100224

although historic the data is still valid & then add these:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/8557995.stm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-west-wales-10739408

 

[DuxDeluxe]

That about sums it up. You're obviously in the same business..... Thanks for a concise post on the subject. Cheers!

[rupert123]

Mel B - 2011-11-26 6:24 PM

 

rupert123 - 2011-11-26 2:25 PM

 

Brian is wrong on one point, a diesel can be converted to use gas, however because it only runs on a portion of gas is not worth doing. As to price no idea why it is more expensive as it is cheaper to produce. Cannot see it is al down to tax though for reasons someone has already suggested.

 

Today I saw a double-decker bus which 'advertised' the fact that it was a duel fuel one, running on diesel and gas, so there must be some benefit in it otherwise why would they do it?

 

Their is a small gain but for a private individual not worth the bother, no idea about a bus but must assume they have worked out a small gain.

[postnote]

Moan, moan, where do you think the money comes from to pay the benefit cheats, child allowance for teenage girls, job seekers allowance (hahaha) and all the foreigners that come into UK with no intention of working…Trees!! No from taxes, one of the biggest contributors are the others you moan about, smokers, but most off fuel tax paid by both the North Sea oil producers and us at the pump.

 

Let’s get to the root of the problem… benefit cheats, child allowance for teenage girls, job seekers allowance (hahaha) and all the foreigners. Maybe then our taxes would come down. And don’t get on the banking case..

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

postnote - 2011-11-27 12:10 AM

 

Moan, moan, where do you think the money comes from to pay the benefit cheats, child allowance for teenage girls, job seekers allowance (hahaha) and all the foreigners that come into UK with no intention of working…Trees!! No from taxes, one of the biggest contributors are the others you moan about, smokers, but most off fuel tax paid by both the North Sea oil producers and us at the pump.

 

Let’s get to the root of the problem… benefit cheats, child allowance for teenage girls, job seekers allowance (hahaha) and all the foreigners. Maybe then our taxes would come down. And don’t get on the banking case..

 

Not to mention the 18.5 BILLION paid into the EU last year, estimated at £730 per year for every household, that would buy a fair bit of diesel.

[Derek Uzzell]

Mel B - 2011-11-26 6:24 PM

 

Today I saw a double-decker bus which 'advertised' the fact that it was a duel fuel one, running on diesel and gas, so there must be some benefit in it otherwise why would they do it?

 

A few links that may interest:

 

http://www.go-lpg.co.uk/diesel.html

 

http://www.chilterngascars.co.uk/cars/lpgdiesel.htm

 

http://www.iwemalpg.com/Diesel_LPG.htm

 

(GOOGLE on "diesel lpg" for plenty more)