Buying Abroad

[Emmay]

We are looking to buy a motorhome and are considering going to Germany. Has anybody out there done this and could you give us some tips/advice/experience B-)

[Mel B]

I've taken this extract from a previous posting which will prove useful to you, this bit was originally posted by Mel E: "... you can get the MMM Fact Sheet on Buying Abroad by sending an sae (C5 size) together with a cheque (at least £5) payable to my favourite charity (MacIntyre Care), an organisation that provides for children and adults with severe learning difficulties, to: M Eastburn Fact Sheet c/o MMM PO Box 88 TIVERTON EX16 7ZN The Fact Sheet covers everything you need to know about buying abroad on 8 A4 dual-column pages. Over 600 have had it so far. Mention that you want to buy in Germany and you'll also get the 'Buying in Germany' supplement." You can also do a search for 'buying abroad' as well as you'll get more info. Regards Mel B

[Derek Uzzell]

I believe Mel Eastburn may not be a forum participant at the moment so I've copied below his most recent posting about his Fact Sheet. The significant change is that the MINIMUM donation to MacIntyre Care is now £7 rather than £5. As he rightly says this is a small sum for the wealth of accurate and helpful information contained in the Fact Sheet. "I would suggest that my 10-page MMM Fact Sheet will prove of some help. Since I first wrote it, over 600 people have used this step-by-step guide and it covers specifically buying in Germany as well as all aspects of VAT, Registration, Insurance, Modification, Warranty preservation, etc. To get a copy, send an SAE (at least C5 size) together with a cheque made payable to my favourite charity, MacIntyre Care (£7 or more please - you'll save several £Thousands) to: M Eastburn Fact Sheet MMM PO Box 88 Tiverton EX16 7ZN"

[Emmay]

Thank you so much for your advice very much appreciated - we are complete novices at this and are very much looking forward to having the freedom.

[Go Motorhoming]

We have imported motorhomes from Germany twice - once in 2003 and once last month (may 2006)- proving successful both times. The amount of money you save is dependant on the age and style of motorhome you wish to buy. The newer the motorhome the more you save. In addition if you intend to use your motorhome abroad having a left hand drive is advantageous. There are more traffic accidents abroad and straining to see at junctions is a problem with a right hand drive. Visit www.mobile.de to look at motorhomes for sale in Germany, this site is there eqivelent of Auto Trader, you can view it into English but with less information. When we imported in 2003 not many German motorhome dealers had realised the potential of selling to the English. Now many advertise that they are English speaking and provide an export service (organising your export plates, paperwork and insurance). This means the process is relatively straight forward. Unless you are buying new, you need to think of it as the same as buying privately in the UK as you are unlikely to be offered any warranty. If you intend to visit Germany on a pre purchase trip this must be factored in, as travelling to and from Germany will soon eat into the potential saving. There is plenty of useful information at www.go-motorhoming.co.uk on both the forum and blog. If you need any more information drop us an email. Enjoy your Motorhoming.

[Brian Kirby]

[QUOTE]Go Motorhoming - 2006-06-24 12:13 PM We have imported motorhomes from Germany twice - once in 2003 and once last month (may 2006)- proving successful both times. The amount of money you save is dependant on the age and style of motorhome you wish to buy. The newer the motorhome the more you save. In addition if you intend to use your motorhome abroad having a left hand drive is advantageous. There are more traffic accidents abroad and straining to see at junctions is a problem with a right hand drive. Visit www.mobile.de to look at motorhomes for sale in Germany, this site is there eqivelent of Auto Trader, you can view it into English but with less information. When we imported in 2003 not many German motorhome dealers had realised the potential of selling to the English. Now many advertise that they are English speaking and provide an export service (organising your export plates, paperwork and insurance). This means the process is relatively straight forward. Unless you are buying new, you need to think of it as the same as buying privately in the UK as you are unlikely to be offered any warranty. If you intend to visit Germany on a pre purchase trip this must be factored in, as travelling to and from Germany will soon eat into the potential saving. There is plenty of useful information at www.go-motorhoming.co.uk on both the forum and blog. If you need any more information drop us an email. Enjoy your Motorhoming.[/QUOTE]

Could you please say what you did re insuring the vehicle for the journey home.  I believe temp insurance cover is available within Germany, but does this also cover driving outside Germany i.e. Holland/Belgium/France to get to a port, and did it cover the UK end of the journey up to your home? 

Could you please also say whether the vehicle was given a temp registration No in Germany and whether this temp reg No is also valid outside Germany?

Finally, if the German insurance didn't cover the UK leg of the journey, did you have to remove any temp German reg plates on entry to UK (as is I believe this is required by UK insurers for the purpose of insuraning on the VIN (chassis No) only)?

Thanks

[Go Motorhoming]

Sorry for this late post. We have been very busy, and even managed to get away in our motorhome. OK now for the technical bit. One of the reasons importation is a problem is the insurance. You do have to be brave and trust that you are not going to total the van on the autobahn driving home. Basically you receive 14 day importation plates, with 3rd party insurance to cover you throughout Europe. Within the booklet you receive it details the countries, in the world, you cannot visit. But unless you're planning to stop-over in Iraq this shouldn't be a problem. You can be insured from the moment you arrive in the UK, which can be organised in advance, against the VIN Number. The German plates can be used to your drive. The vehicle must be stored off road until the DVLA issue your registration number. When you buy your copy of Go Motorhoming you also buy access to the authors who will endeavor to answer any unanswered questions. Enjoy your motorhoming Go Motorhoming

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks for that information.  If I understand correctly, therefore, the vehicle and your property are uninsured until you reach UK.  Can you say if this insurance is third party, fire and theft, or literally third party only?

I was intrigued by your comment that you can keep the reg. plates "to your drive".

I imported from France last year, and was very firmly instructed by the insurer that, as the vehicle was to be insured for the UK leg on its chassis No only, it must bear no foreign registration plates (if it did, they said the insurance would be void as the vehicle would have been registered [albeit temporarily], and thus not eligible to be insured on its chassis No).  I believe this is now generally the case among the few UK insurers prepared to provide insurance on chassis No only.  I suspect, therefore that a screwdriver and battery powered electric drill should be taken when collecting, to remove the temp plates at the UK port.  I know it sounds extreme, but my temp plates were riveted on to comply with French law!

However, I bought in Calais, so the nice friendly French dealer drove us to the port on his insurance, and the only bit of the journey where we were not comprehensively insured was while crossing the channel (which is I believe normal anyway). 

The risk in driving £30,000 or more of unfamilier vehicle several hundred miles seems to me to outweigh any cost advantage Germany may offer over Belgium or France. 

You may well be brave and trust your own driving ability -  which of us doesn't as an article of faith - but you can't control road conditions, weather and other drivers' antics.  It is quite possible to get involved in an accident where you are blameless, or only partly to blame, but have no claim on anyone else for damage to your own vehicle.  Motorhomes are frighteningly fragile structures.  One good swipe from a 40 tonner that disappears into the gloom would secure just about total demolition of your pride and joy and leave you without a bean.  This is an old debate, I know, but that's where I'd say foolhardy, rather than brave!  However, each to his own.

Thanks again for the response.

Regards

[Derek Uzzell]

I purchased a new Hobby motorhome from Germany last year, collecting it from a dealership near Strasbourg on July 11 and driving it back home myself to my UK address via the then P&O Le Havre-Portsmouth ferry route. Part of the German obligatory temporary registration process involved compulsory provision of 3rd-party-only insurance, with the period of validity of that insurance being chosen by the vehicle purchaser. In my case this was from 11/07/2005 to 19/11/2005 - which the dealer told me represented the minimum duration - and the insurance expiry date was stamped into the registration plates. The insurance cost 33.30 Euros and I received a green International Motor Insurance Card that indicated the countries within which the insurance was valid. As "Go Motorhoming" suggests, it would be most unlikely that a UK motorhome buyer would find the standard range of countries inadequate. Having spoken later to a UK insurer, my understanding is that the scope of the Germany-provided 3rd-party-only insurance may be inferior to that offered by an equivalent UK-issued 3rd-party-only policy, presumably regarding maximum pay-outs. However, as I've no documentation (other than the 'Insurance Card') for the German insurance I'm unable to confirm this. I'm unaware of a requirement to remove 'foreign' temporary registration plates and the need wasn't mentioned to me by the German dealer/insurance representative or by any UK insurer. German registration-plates clip into purpose-made surrounds, so removal is relatively simple. However, conceptually, I don't fancy the idea of driving in this country a yet-to-be-UK-registered vehicle with no registration-plates as it would offer a tempting target for our police. Although it appears to be accepted by the authorities that imported vehicles are often going to be driven from UK ferry-ports to buyers' homes, it's worth quoting the Department for Transport's guide: "N.B. UK law requires a vehicle to be licensed and registered for road use. To avoid difficulties, importers are advised by DVLA to transport rather than drive their vehicles from the port of entry to home or first destination and to keep them off the road until they have been properly licensed and registered." My primary reason for buying in Germany not France was because I had great difficulty sourcing the Hobby model I wanted from a convenient French dealership. (In fact, that's a gross understatement. The truth is that I had e-mailed quite a few French dealerships that were close-ish to a Channel port and purported to market Hobby motorhomes, but received absolutely no response from any of them.) It's possible that I might have been able to order the Hobby from the main French importer but, as this was also based near Strasbourg, there was no real incentive. Also, when I had been considering buying a Chausson motorhome, I'd become concerned that the French dealers to whom I spoke apparently lacked familiarity with the export procedure. Conversely, all the German Hobby dealerships I had e-mailed replied promptly, gave me the information I had asked for, and claimed to have past experience of exporting motorhomes. Incidentally, when questions are raised in leisure magazines about choosing between a LHD or RHD motorhome the usual advice is to make sure you have a realistic test-drive before committing to LHD. I've driven for over 40 years and I've done many miles on the Continent, but always in RHD vehicles. Because of my experience I thought it would be child's-play converting to a LHD motorhome, but it wasn't! I've now driven about 5500 miles in the Hobby and just about come to terms with it when it comes to judging the vehicle's width accurately. LHD has definite advantages when driving on the right-hand side of the road and I'm glad I chose it. But, if you are only accustomed to a RHD motorhome and can make an instant and seamless transition to a LHD equivalent vehicle, then you have my sincere admiration.

[Go Motorhoming]

An interesting debate indeed. Thank you Derek you have said pretty much what we would have said. I agree getting used to a LHD is difficult but as we have advised if you intend to mainly drive on the continent then its better if your on a level playing field. I have driven LHD vehicles somewhere in the region of 35'000 KM and yet over the weekend I still had to concentrate, some how you cant help but drive away from oncoming bushes. Readers may wish to read my latest post on the thread, Go Motothoming Europe by Don Madge, 1st July 06 at 2.02pm this is a dual response to Brian's posts

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Derek.  That is very interesting.  I'll try to unravel a bit further this matter of whether or not a vehicle insured on its chassis number can carry temporary foreign registration plates.  I must say, on checking, that this particular advice was not confirmed in writing by Comfort, so it may have been a bit of overenthusiasm on someone's part.

Shame about the French and e-mail/internet isn't it?  Basically, they just don't get it!  If they respond to e-mails at all, it is often after a week.  Curiously, they respond much better to letters, although the response still remains rather leisurely.  It is also true that many are unaware of the facility to sell for export ex VAT.  I think the French market is so relatively large, and the number of would be UK importers so small, that they just don't pick up on the option.

However, if there aren't the dealers, or more especially if there isn't one you feel comfortable with, you have little choice than to look further afield.

This whole business of personal importation is, on the whole, rather unsatisfactory.  I quite agree that the idea of driving an obviously new vehicle with no plates seems only to invite the attention of every cruising PC you happen upon.  The main reason for the problem is that, having granted a right (that of personal importation of vehicles), our esteemed leaders didn't finish the job by facilitating temporary registration of the vehicle for the purposes of collection/delivery.  If such registration were possible, it seems temporary insurance cover should be obtainable, and the attendant risks of driving your large, new, unfamiliar vehicle while virtually uninsured would be eliminated.  I think it gets even more complex if you take the view that the difference in VAT rates is relatively small, and opt to pay the VAT and have the vehicle registered by the seller.  As I understand it, you need to be resident in the country of registration to permanently register a vehicle anywhere in Europe.  Unless you are resident in France/Germany (or wherever), therefore, you can't register there, and you still can't register it in UK (where you are resident) because the vehicle isn't in UK.  Catch 22?

Perhaps we should campaign for the introduction of temporary registration numbers that could be allocated by DVLA, on provision of the necessary vehicle details, so that temp plates could be made up before leaving to collect the vehicle.  After all, both Germany and France provide for this, and I believe UK used to.  The present position is highly unsatisfactory and really should not be allowed to continue.

I'm much encouraged by your remarks about converting to LHD, I thought it was just me.  I had driven left hookers in France years back and, like you, have driven many miles (including towing a caravan) in Europe in RHD cars.  I even hired an identical van and drove it around in France for a week before buying.  Despite all this, I have found trying to judge the nearside clearences when driving on the right very difficult.  It doesn't seem such a problem in France, I think because most of the roads are reasonably wide, but elsewhere.... My greatest concern is clearing the additional width of the coachbuilt bodywork just behind the cab.  Looking ahead, there is no visual guide for the full width of your vehicle and, although you can look back in the mirrors to see how you're doing, you'll have bashed whatever it was before it appears in the mirrors.  This isn't really a LHD problem, and must afflict RHD motorhomers driving in UK as well as all LHD drivers throughout pretty much the rest of the world.  The problem seems to be in acquiring a mental LHD map of the vehicle, and it's proving more difficult than I ever thought it would be.  Is this a left brain/right brain thing, I wonder?  I'm a bit ahead of you in mileage, at around 15,000 km, but I still found negotiating Southern Italian street parking while negotiating small towns a very "heart in mouth" experience.  I'm no end encouraged to find a fellow sufferer! 

Notwithstanding, I too feel that the advantage lies with LHD.  I met a chap with a RHD motorhome in Pompeii, who had bashed a Merc in heavy traffic.  The Merc driver had tried it on a bit too hard and pushed his nose in front of the 'van's "coachbuilt bulge", apparently thinking the 'van would then give way.  What he hadn't realised, of course, was that he was out of sight below the door window and the external mirrors, the 'van was RHD, and the nice lady driver he was looking at was, in fact, the passenger.  It could have happened anywhere, of course, but the motorhomer was convinced he'd have seen the Merc if he'd been LHD.  Sounded plausible to me!

Regards

[Mel E]

Brian, All EU countries (including the UK) provide temporary registration plates for vehicles bought in the country for IMMEDIATE export to another EU country. The problem with insurance affects ONLY the Third Party element. UK insurance companies, offering Third Party cover in the UK, are required to belong to the Motor Insurers Bureau Bonding scheme and to contribute to it (about 10% of your total premium goes there). This is used to pay for certain types of claim (mainly personal injury) against uninsured drivers (currently estimated at 10% to 15% of all UK drivers). Exactly the same applies in other EU countries, though most have a much smaller uninsured driver problem. The reason UK insurers cannot offer Third Party cover for foreign registered vehicles is that theyb do not belong to that country'e bonding scheme. To do so would be too expensive for a few personal imports. This is a problem for even the pan-European providers such as AXA, since their motor inurance subsidiary in each country is entirely independent of the other subsidiaries. There is nothing to prevent UK Insurers covering the vehicle itself (i.e., the extra you get in Comprehensive cover). Most are unwilling or unable to split open thier policies in this way. Hence you are stuck with two options: a) buy an annual comprehensive policy abroad based on the overseas registration plates; you will not get less than a year's cover, and it will be useless once you have re-registered in the UK. Also, almost no insurance company will give a part-use refund on the first year's premium. b) risk it with just foreign Third Party cover. Curiously this wasn't a problem until the EU liberalised cross-border insurance. Then it bacame one, because, although nobody wanted to take up the option, inspection of the new rules revealed that Uk insurance on foreign plates was - and alwaus had been - illegal for the reasons given above. I gather the EU is about to change the rules again - by 2008, so who knows what may happen next?

[Brian Kirby]

Thanks Mel.  Sage as ever!  Did you check whether a UK resident can get comprehensive insurance for a foreign registered vehicle from a foreign insurer?  I'm sure I was told this also becomes very fraught, partially because the registration is only temporary.  If you can, however, it seems to me that - unless the premiums are astronomical - it would be better to pay the premium than to risk all.  It's not that the risk itself is necessarily that great, it is the consequences of the event should it come about.  If the 'van were seriously damaged or written off on the way home and you had no recourse against anyone else, however unlikely that may be, you stand the full loss.  It won't matter if the risk was assessed at only 1:1,000,000: if it happens you loose £30,000+ right there and then, no ifs, no buts, no percentages.  That's a bit more akin to Russian Roulette than the Monte Carlo variety to me!

However, if we could only pre-register the vehicle, all this risk could be brought back within the realms of normal insurance.  Vehicle registered in UK while still in France/Germany?  But why not, in principle?  The details necessary for registration should be easily enough available once it is with the dealer.  All the regsitration formalities could then be completed, including fees and VED and, since the vehicle would then be UK registered, UK insurance cover should be available.  After all, what really is the difference between driving the now registered vehicle from wherever following collection, and driving it to wherever while on holiday. 

To register, you have to give your name and address, so DVLA has you on its (quite impressively efficient) database.  If issue of the actual tax disc was then witheld until one had obtained a certificate from a normal DoT testing station (say within the 14 days currently allowed for registration), to the effect that lights, speedo and rear fog light/s were all to UK spec, I suspect most people would make sure the conversions were all properly done and get their certificate pronto.  The rest would be easily identifiable, after all the test cert is now simultaneously logged with DVLA by the test station.  Small job for Mr Plod!

While on this subject (buying abroad, that is), I said I'd check why I was told to remove the French plates on arrival in UK.  In fact, this seems to have been a bit of overenthusiasm on the part of my informant.  She had, apparently, picked up on the fact that the vehicle can't be simultaneously insured on its chassis number - which is essentially a one trip concession by the insurer - and be used on the road carrying UK regsitration plates.  This had become translated into "no regsitration plates while on a chassis number", and thus, "you must remove the French registration plates"!  There is, in fact, no need to remove the foreign plates on arrival in UK and I apologise for any confusion/panic I may have caused.  Just to be sure, this was checked with the underwriters - although I don't have it in writing!

Regards

[Don Madge]

Brian, I've been trying for years to get fully comp. insurance from an insurance company abroad. I refuse to travel with third party only. I want to visit countries that my insurer will not issue a Green Card for but I can only get Third Party, and the very minimum at that. When you buy insurance at a country's border it's only third party. I have looked into getting a Carnet de Passage, but the cost is horrendous from the RAC in the UK, it's more affordable from the ADAC in Munich. Don

[Brian Kirby]

Don

D'you think they're all trying to tell you something about the places you want to go?

After all, I hear Iraq is a bit hairy for motorhomes at present!

Regards

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]Brian Kirby - 2006-07-05 6:32 PM

Don

D'you think they're all trying to tell you something about the places you want to go?

After all, I hear Iraq is a bit hairy for motorhomes at present!

Regards

[/QUOTE] Brian, I would like to go to Petra in Jordan, :-D I did consider Iraq 8-) but I did not have enough payload for the amoured plating :-D I live in hope :-D Don

[Brian Kirby]

Don

In hope of what, more payload, Iraq, or just the armour plating!!

[Don Madge]

[QUOTE]Brian Kirby - 2006-07-05 8:53 PM

Don

In hope of what, more payload, Iraq, or just the armour plating!!

[/QUOTE] Brian, Of getting to Jordan. :-D Don

[Mel E]

Brian, Provided the vehicle doesn't need an MoT, there's actually nothing to stop you registering it in the UK before you collect it. You will need all the documentation, of course (Invoice, foreign registration documents, etc), and you may come unstuck if you're one of those randomly chosen for your import to be inspected. Technically, you may not register a vehicle before it's imported, but, if you can get away with it, I don't see why it should cause thye DVLA or HMR&C any problems! Incidentally, you may only drive an imported vehicle on temporary foreign plates between the port of entry and your home/storage point and between there and an MoT station of DVLA Inspection Station. And you certainly MUST display the foreign plates.

[Mel E]

Don, There is no law forcing you to travel only by motorhome once you've got one. Get a Voyages Jules Verne 1-week package to Jordan including 2 full days at Petra. It's cheap, you get to remember what staying in a hotel is like, you contribute to the economy of one of our few true mid-east friends, Jordan, and the place is amazing, as are the Roman ruins, both there and in Amman. The desert is beautiful - it's a truly memorable trip. Then you could try a Nile Cruise (no motorhomes accommodated) or an African Safari (sorry, no motohomes!), or a truly relaxing couple of weeks in a 4-5 star All-Inclusive Hotel (motorhomes allowed in the parking area!). You can't take it with you, you know! Mel

[Don Madge]

Mel, Thanks for those words of wisdom :-D In September we are taking the train from London to Istanbul. We flew to OZ twice last year and never went near a motorhome for five months. Next April we have a three week trip to of China booked no motorhome then. So you see for us there is life other than the motorhome and we use ours more than most I'm not looking for a cheap one week trip to Jordan, I'm looking for an extended stay and visiting other areas as well. We also enjoyed our Nile cruise and the Lake Nasser cruise. Enjoy your safari, we will be interested to hear how you get on. Don PS. I must confess we had a three month tour of Alaska and the Yukon in an RV, sad aint we.