tonyishuk Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Frank McAuley - 2011-12-11 7:05 PM Basically are you saying if dipped and depressed headlamps are used in fog then additional fog lamps are really of no use? :-S Yep ! The thicker the fog, the more the light is reflected back. Dedicated fog lights, with no headlights will work OK in some conditions, but I think illegal. (Although my car allows front fogs only (sidelights, but rear fog lights must have the headlights on to work, which is probably legality over ruling common sense) Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 The only thing I would raise and I think that has been raised on other similar threads is that some DRL use the battery voltage to sense the the switching on and off of the DLRs not the actual headlight circuits. (Presumably because Xeon type lights are not good thing to DIY with ?) With some leisure battery / Vehicle battery combinations will light DLR when charging via the mains charger units. How true, I do not know (?) Rgds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Dave Newell - 2011-12-11 8:06 AM Colin Leake - 2011-12-10 10:12 PM Sorry but as the law stands at the moment this would be illegal which is why they are all set to work when the vehicle is in reverse. Seems mad to me as I would love to be able to use mine when driving so that I could see what was immediately behind me and more importantly any vehicle approaching fast immediately behind just when I was about to move out to overtake a lorry. Sorry Colin but you are mistaken, it is not illegal to have a rear view system in operation while driving forward. It is illegal to have video or tv working in viewable by the driver but that is not the same thing at all. Seems you are right. The reason we can't have ours on is that is part of the entertainment system and counts as a TV/DVD. I stand corrected by you in a very civilised manner of which we could do with having more of on the forum. I'm now thinking of installing a separate system with a small screen in place of the pointless interior mirror. Thanks D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rayjsj Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Phew ! I'm glad that my Reversing camera (which is ON all the time the ignition is on) is Legal ! Dave fitted it, so i was hoping he knew his 'Law' on these things. I find it a great help when some folk sit right up close in my 'Blind spot' between the mirrors. As well for it's 'proper 'use of reversing. sorry a bit off topic ! Ray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Colin Leake - 2011-12-11 7:34 PM................................Seems you are right. The reason we can't have ours on is that is part of the entertainment system and counts as a TV/DVD. I stand corrected by you in a very civilised manner of which we could do with having more of on the forum. I'm now thinking of installing a separate system with a small screen in place of the pointless interior mirror. Thanks D. Colin, I'm not sure that advice is correct, either! What you mustn't have, is video type entertainment playing, within the driver's field of vision, while driving. I can see no reason why you cannot have a multi-use monitor, providing it cannot be used for entertainment while driving. So, if the unit were switched via the ignition, so that it can only operate in rear view / reversing modes while driving, it is a rear view / reversing system. That is what we have and use. If, once the ignition is turned off, it can then be operated as an entertainment system, that is irrelevant to the driving situation. Unless you are using an all in one TV/Video unit as the monitor, I can't see why the inputs couldn't be powered via a relay to make its use in entertainment mode impossible while driving, and thus legal. In fact, logically (and the law is inevitably logical, isn't it? :-)) I can't really see why that much complication should be needed. AFAIK it is the actual use that governs legality, not what the unit is capable of. Were it the capability that governed legality, it would surely be illegal to have any entertainment unit where the driver could see it from the driving seat, because he might turn it on. If that were true, it seems to me your present unit would already be illegal (because, from the way you want to use it, I assume it must be visible from the driver's seat), and you are clearly quite happy that it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
treborsiwel Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Even with being 10ft high x 8ft wide x 28ft long, I have still been driven into whilst stationary. With both the lights on and off :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Newell Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Colin Leake - 2011-12-11 7:34 PM Dave Newell - 2011-12-11 8:06 AM Colin Leake - 2011-12-10 10:12 PM Sorry but as the law stands at the moment this would be illegal which is why they are all set to work when the vehicle is in reverse. Seems mad to me as I would love to be able to use mine when driving so that I could see what was immediately behind me and more importantly any vehicle approaching fast immediately behind just when I was about to move out to overtake a lorry. Sorry Colin but you are mistaken, it is not illegal to have a rear view system in operation while driving forward. It is illegal to have video or tv working in viewable by the driver but that is not the same thing at all. Seems you are right. The reason we can't have ours on is that is part of the entertainment system and counts as a TV/DVD. I stand corrected by you in a very civilised manner of which we could do with having more of on the forum. I'm now thinking of installing a separate system with a small screen in place of the pointless interior mirror. Thanks D. You're welcome Colin, as I understand it equipment that is "capable" of displaying video/TV pictures within the drivers field of view is illegal unless it is electronically interlocked to prevent this possibility. So if you can watch TV or a DVD with engine running and vehicle moving then it would be illegal, most system interlocks simply connect to the handbrake warning switch. My apologies to the OP for diverting from topic. I recently fitted fog lights, additional position lamps (used to be called sidelights) and auxiliary driving lights to a large Dethleffs A class but they weren't specific to the Ducato (wouldn't have mattered anyway as it was an A class). My understanding is that fog lights can be used with position lamps or headlights on but must have a warning lamp visible to the driver although I could be mistaken on that. The purpose of front fog lights is to illuminate the area immediately in front of, and to the sides of , the vehicle in times of extremely poor visibility (less than 100 metres) due to fog or falling snow. Under such conditions you would be travelling slowly anyway so can then safely use the fog lights. D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 "position lamps", blimey, bet that came from Brussels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Frank McAuley - 2011-12-11 7:05 PM Re Derek's comments: tyou and most interesting. Basically I would only use them in fog and not drive with them and headlamps in normal conditions which I believe is illegal.Is it legal to drive with fog lamps only illuminated in normal conditions? Basically are you saying if dipped and depressed headlamps are used in fog then additional fog lamps are really of no use? :-S Having rechecked on-line, I'm no longer sure if it's ever legally permissible to use front fog lamps independently of headlamps. See Rules 226 & 236 on: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069859 Regarding your final question, in a word - Yes. Rather than fit front fog lamps, you'd be better off fitting headlamp bulbs with a higher light output. You'd then get better lighting in normal conditions and, in conditions where visibility is seriously reduced, you could adjust the dipped-beam angle even further down, further reducing back-glare but retaining as much forward vision as possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 These are abstracts from the relevant Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 (RVLR 25 and 27), to which the Highway Code refers. 25. Requirements about the use of headlamps and front fog lamps (1) Save as provided in paragraph (2), no person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road a vehicle which is fitted with obligatory dipped-beam headlamps unless every such lamp is kept lit– (a) during the hours of darkness, except on a road which is a restricted road for the purposes of section 81 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 by virtue of a system of street lighting when it is lit; and . (b) in seriously reduced visibility. . (2) The provisions of paragraph (1) do not apply– (a) in the case of a motor vehicle fitted with one obligatory dipped-beam headlamp or a solo motor bicycle or motor bicycle combination fitted with a pair of obligatory dipped-beam headlamps, if a main-beam headlamp or a front fog lamp is kept lit; . (b) in the case of a motor vehicle, other than a solo motor bicycle or motor bicycle combination, fitted with a pair of obligatory dipped-beam headlamps, if– . (i) a pair of main-beam headlamps is kept lit; or . (ii) in seriously reduced visibility, a pair of front fog lamps which is so fitted that the outermost part of the illuminated area of each lamp in the pair is not more than 400 mm from the outer edge of the vehicle is kept lit; . © to a vehicle being drawn by another vehicle; . (d) to a vehicle while being used to propel a snow plough; or . (e) to a vehicle which is parked. . (3) For the purposes of this regulation a headlamp shall not be regarded as lit if its intensity is reduced by a dim-dip device. The relevant part of RVLR 27 says: 27. Restrictions on the use of lamps other than those to which regulation 24 refers No person shall use, or cause or permit to be used, on a road any vehicle on which any lamp, hazard warning signal device or warning beacon (.....) used in a manner (.....) 1 ............................ 2 Front fog lamp (a)Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to other persons using the road. . (b)Used so as to be lit at any time other than in conditions of seriously reduced visibility. . ©Used so as to be lit when a vehicle is parked. 3 Rear fog lamp (a)Used so as to cause undue dazzle or discomfort to the driver of a following vehicle. . (b)Used so as to be lit at any time other than in conditions of seriously reduced visibility. . ©Save in the case of an emergency vehicle, used so as to be lit when a vehicle is parked. . 4..........................etc. On which basis, I think the Highway Code is misleading, and RVLR 25 and 27 do permit the use of fog lamps alone - providing the lamps are mounted and used as required by regulation 25 (2) (b) (ii), viz: "in seriously reduced visibility, a pair of front fog lamps which is so fitted that the outermost part of the illuminated area of each lamp in the pair is not more than 400 mm from the outer edge of the vehicle is kept lit." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-12-12 12:33 PM ...On which basis, I think the Highway Code is misleading, and RVLR 25 and 27 do permit the use of fog lamps alone - providing the lamps are mounted and used as required by regulation 25 (2) (b) (ii), viz: "in seriously reduced visibility, a pair of front fog lamps which is so fitted that the outermost part of the illuminated area of each lamp in the pair is not more than 400 mm from the outer edge of the vehicle is kept lit." I originally began by browsing through the paragraphs you've quoted from the Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989, but the website I looked at carried the following caveat "This is the original version (as it was originally made). UK Statutory Instruments are not carried in their revised form on this site." I then wandered around the Internet for a while, but couldn't find anything I really trusted to convince me one way or another. Finally, I decided that the safest (and simplest) advice was that provided in the Highway Code. Front fog-lamps aren't checked during the MOT test, so 'usage legality' will probably only rear its ugly head according to whatever is in the "Traffic Officers' Little Book of Misdemeanours" (or something like that), which I believe is not available to Joe Public. This is an interesting booklet, as it not only defines the many and various UK motoring offences but also the defences that a traffic policeman may reasonably accept. Unfortunately I haven't got the magic book, so I can't check what it says about front fog lamps.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 True Derek, and I probably should have added a caveat that The Road Vehicle Lighting Regulations 1989 were being quoted in their original form. I did also search for amendments, and could find none for those particular regulations (there are other amendments, which were readily enough available, so my assumption is that these particular regulations have remained unaltered). Our previous car was of 2002 vintage, and facilitated use of fogs without dips, so I would assume the arrangement was unchanged up to at least that date. However, I rather suspect the worst that would happen, if one were driving through fog so dense the fogs alone were the best option and one was challenged by the police for so doing, is that one would be told to put on the dips, as fogs alone was illegal. If George Collings is "listening", his take might be instructive. Every time I drive at night I reckon 1 car in 10 has either one headlamp out, or poorly aligned headlamps - and no-one seems to take a blind (pun intended! :-)) bit of notice of them, so I can't really see use of fog lamps alone, under appropriate conditions, causing too much of an issue. One thing I do wonder, however, is whether the high set lamps of the X250s might exacerbate back glare in fog. The main advantage of fogs over dips, apart from beam shape, is that they are much lower, so one looks down on the light, rather than along the beam, and that seems to reduce the back glare considerably. BTW, I e-mailed you. Did you get it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyishuk Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I wonder how relevent the lighting regs are to the trucking brigade ? Some seem to have enough lighting / fire power to dry a wet road in front of them :-D Although I did see a very "pretty" tractor unit, with enough lights to mimic the CokaCola Christmas lorry, Brightened my day on the M25. (No pun intended ) Rgds Just to add :D http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2071197/Japanese-light-trucks-blings-road.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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