Gaslow bottles – a change of direction?

[Derek Uzzell]

When I started motorcaravanning (1998), a few motorhomes had a fixed LPG tank. An even smaller number had a refillable LPG bottle (usually STAKO-branded) that was refilled via an adapter attached directly to the bottle.

 

Then came Gaslow’s refillable steel bottles and the composite containers marketed by MTH Autogas. The design of the latter meant that refilling involved an on-bottle adapter, whereas the Gaslow canisters could be installed securely within a motorhome’s gas-locker, plumbed semi-permanently into the motorhome’s gas system, and be refilled remotely via an external filling-point of the same type used for bi-fuel cars. Secure in-locker installation and remote filling have always been important elements in Gaslow’s marketing strategy, as this approach maximizes safety and should be acceptable to forecourt attendants at autogas-selling service-stations.

 

MMM January 2012 carries a Gaslow advert on Page 191. This compares a current Gaslow 6kg refillable steel bottle with “a 15 litre plastic refillable” container. Although the ‘plastic’ bottle isn’t named, it’s plainly the Safefill product:

 

http://www.safefill.co.uk/

 

Overlooking the debatable weight/cost comparison, the unusual part of the advert is the photo at its head showing a ‘free-standing’ Gaslow bottle being refilled via an on-bottle adapter. This procedure appears to be in direct conflict with Gaslow’s traditional philosophy.

 

When I spoke to a Safefill representative about a year ago, I was given to understand that the number of exchange-only gas bottles (Calor, etc.) being exchanged within the UK leisure-vehicle community had fallen in recent years, while the quantity of autogas being sold had grown. It had been concluded that leisure-vehicle owners were increasingly refilling exchange-only bottles with autogas. The Safefill canister had been developed to offer such people an alternative, being light in weight with visible contents-level and a reasonable capacity, plus safe refilling from an autogas pump.

 

I wondered at the time where the statistical data had come from and, frankly, doubted that the Safefill bottle had a real chance of gaining appreciable market share. However, the advert in MMM suggests that Gaslow must be concerned about Safefill as a competitor (otherwise there’d be no need for the direct comparison) and that refilling free-standing bottles is no longer considered heresy by Gaslow.

 

The refilling-adapter shown in the Gaslow MMM advert is a substantial brass object that looks remarkably like this one:

 

http://www.gasit.co.uk/cubecart/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=102

 

(And a Health & Safety caveat - the person demonstrating refilling in the Gaslow advert would have been better shown wearing gloves.)

 

[neillking]

Gaslow themselves list an on-bottle adapter but will try to only sell it to owners of 'skids' - as indeed we do. The key issue here seems to be that the public may not be trusted to refill loose bottles safely - and quite a few posts here would tend to support the view that lunatics abound!  The sign pictured here is common on LPG pumps in garages and its presence may be driven by insurance companies rather than by any legislation. I suspect Gaslow's reaction to safefill's activities is more to do with disappointing sales volumes in this damn recession rather than any specific policy change.

http://www.motorcaravanning.co.uk/images/_new_p21.jpg

[Manu]

Had one of Dereks adaptors for about 4 years...used it to fill approx 4 times a year and experienced no problems here or in Europe !

Must agree ,this like everything else is driven by cash and maybe insurance or HEALTH & SAFETY drama...much cheaper to fill a 13kg bottle than a £30 + swap.

What is the difference in filling your car at the pump or a bottle...common sense prevails surely !

Filled 2 x 13kg bottles in Spain for 16.72 euros at the back end of September 2011....certainly no H & S issues there.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

The one single thing that has stopped me buying into any re-fillable is the potential for some EU legislation prohibiting their use at filling stations, the clue being the gas is invariably referred to Autogas on forecourts. Should that happen you would end up with about £10 worth of scrap metal. I think I'm also correct in saying Autogas is not for domestic use,only for vehicle propulsion, but a blind eye is turned. Some industry clarity is long overdue methinks so that everyone knows exactly where they are.

[Tony Jones]

1footinthegrave - 2011-12-15 4:08 PM

 

I think I'm also correct in saying Autogas is not for domestic use, but a blind eye is turned.

 

That's true, but as far as I know only in the sense that Autogas is TAXED as road fuel, which means we pay more for it than we should. Gas used for domestic purposes should be taxed less, but filling stations (understandably) aren't equipped to distinguish!

There is no "elfansafety" reason not to use it Autogas (a mixture of butane and propane) in our systems, which are designed to burn either element.

[Derek Uzzell]

Tony Jones - 2011-12-15 4:13 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-12-15 4:08 PM

 

I think I'm also correct in saying Autogas is not for domestic use, but a blind eye is turned.

 

That's true, but as far as I know only in the sense that Autogas is TAXED as road fuel, which means we pay more for it than we should. Gas used for domestic purposes should be taxed less, but filling stations (understandably) aren't equipped to distinguish!

There is no "elfansafety" reason not to use it Autogas (a mixture of butane and propane) in our systems, which are designed to burn either element.

 

Some details of the butane/propane content of 'autogas':

 

LPG Composition (% by volume) as Automotive Fuel in Europe

 

Country Propane:Butane

 

Austria 50:50

Belgium 50:50

Denmark 50:50

France 35:65

Germany 90:10

Greece 20:80

Ireland 100:0

Italy 25:75

Netherlands 50:50

Spain 30:70

Sweden 95:5

United Kingdom 100:0

[Dr Dave]

It does make you wonder what the price of 'autogas' would be without the road fuel duty for vehicle use and it does indicate how much calor makes when it is cheaper to get a refill with road fuel duty than swap a calor cylinder with no duty.

[yeti]

The 2 Calor depots near me with Autogas pumps have different rates. The Liverpool depot doesn't charge VAT at the road fuel rate, on the other hand the depot at Ellesmere Port charges full whack. Problem is to travel to Liverpool involves a journey through the Mersey Tunnel at £1.50 each way!

[Dave Newell]

I use a local bulk gas supplier (Budget gas) who charge the correct VAT rate on Autogas if you tell them its for domestic cooking and heating. Few, if any petrol stations will be able to do the same as they sell it purely as road fuel.

 

D.

[Derek Uzzell]

Dr Dave - 2011-12-15 9:46 PM

 

It does make you wonder what the price of 'autogas' would be without the road fuel duty for vehicle use and it does indicate how much calor makes when it is cheaper to get a refill with road fuel duty than swap a calor cylinder with no duty.

 

The following is quoted from the Countrywide website:

 

"In the 2010 Budget, Chancellor Alistair Darling signalled extended support for the LPG autogas industry.

 

Fuel duty on petrol and diesel will go up by 2.76p per litre in the current year whilst the duty on LPG will go up by only 2.685p per litre.

 

As regards the differential in duty we have with petrol and diesel, the government headline commitment is that this differential would not decrease by more than 1p per litre per year. However, rather than seeing this decrease, we are seeing the differential increase to our advantage:

 

Fuel duty increases in the coming year are being phased in as follows:

 

With effect from 1/4/2010:

 

Fuel duty on petrol will go up 1p per litre to 57.19p

Fuel duty on LPG will go up 1.43p per litre to 15.265p

With effect from 1/10/2010:

 

Fuel duty on petrol will go up 1p per litre to 58.19p

Fuel duty on LPG will go up 0.71p per litre to 15.975p

With effect from 1/1/2011:

 

Fuel duty on petrol will go up 0.76p per litre to 58.95p

Fuel duty on LPG will go up 0.545p per litre to 16.52p"

 

I'm not sure if those data are still accurate, but my 31/10/2011 Countrywide invoice showed autogas at £0.619 per litre including road-fuel duty but ex-VAT. Adding VAT produces a per-litre cost of £0.743

 

On that basis, if one were able to buy autogas from Countrywide without paying the road-fuel duty and put 26 litres of the gas into a Calor 13kg propane bottle (without causing a major explosion at the Countrywide LPG pump and ignoring the notice there that you musn't do this and Calor's prohibition of user-refilling of its bottles), it would cost a little over £14.

[John J Thompson]

The problem with Autogas is not just VAT, but Fuel Duty which is charged by HMRC when the gas is put into the suppliers tank and not when it is dispensed into the users tank. So even though the supplier may be able to sell you the fuel at 5% VAT instead of 20% VAT he still has to charge Fuel Duty as HMRC still want their money, which he has to recoup. It would require the supplier to have two tanks one for vehicles and one for domestic to get your gas at 5% vat and no fuel duty.

 

We can not reclaim the excess VAT paid from HMRC as we are not registered for VAT purposes with them.

 

Calor Gas will supply at 5% VAT from their company owned depots, but not all Calor distribution depots are Calor owned and it is dificult to get them to tell you which ones are company owned. In the North Region only the Port Clarence (Teesside) and Carlisle are Calor owned. This will be why the Liverpool depot will charge one rate and the other depot full rate.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Whilst some may find some of these contributions interesting, here's my concern. Forget the "turn a blind eye" situations to re-filling,which would appear to be most if not all service stations, both here and in some European countries, Where in fact can you go to re-fill a cylinder with the certain knowledge that you are both legally, and are fully entitled to do so by the reseller. As another contributor noted there are more and more signs going up prohibiting this, even after these types of cylinders have been around a while now. It's all very confusing for anyone considering going this route.

[neillking]

I wouldn't agree with confusing unless you choose to make it so. There is a straightforward way to approach this, install a system as recomended preferably with external filler, and enjoy the widespread availability of LPG that is lower in price than the exchange equivalent. It isn't a 100% perfect system but then nor is humping heavy and country-incompatible bottles of more expensive gas about. Go with the flow, enjoy the benefits, stop fighting the system, spend your energies relaxing in new places with a glass or whatever in your hand. Simples!

[tonyishuk]

 

I am surprised that 'elfnsafety" does not insist that a "trained person" are the the ONLY people allow to handle inflammble fuel at a garage and to fill vehicle fuel tanks.

 

It will doubless be a matter of time !

 

I am of the age (unfortunately) that I remember the debate about letting the general public having to ( or being allowed to) fill their own cars !

 

The whole village could disappear in a loud bang and cloud of smoke, It did not happen (that often ;-) )

 

 

Rgds.

 

 

[neillking]

Like me you'll doubtless remember then how commonplace serious injury and death was at work and that 21/22 people died every day on our roads back then (single figures now). Maybe also how some of us chose to change industries because the cancer rates were so high in some due to cavalier handling of 'hazardous substances' as we now now them. Like others I like to joke about H&S excesses but we also have a lot to thank it for. H&S re the public messing about with gas? - I'm all for it. Someone referred to common sense earlier but one man's common sense seems to be another man's lunacy. Some of the questions and proposals we get here from the motorhoming 'joe public' would make your hair stand on end. I really don't want to find myself standing next to them at any point and will be most grateful when LPG/Autogas filling requirements are better regulated and policed!

 

[Derek Uzzell]

I notice that the Safefill refillable LPG bottle is shown in the "Shop front" section of the January 2012 edition of The Caravan Club Magazine (page 78). I don't know if this will produce a 'Delia Smith' reaction from CC members, but there is a caveat regarding this product that's not mentioned in the advertising.

 

The Safefill bottle targets refilling at autogas dispensing-points in the UK and, consequently, has an integrated UK-standard bayonet fitting. This is fine until the Safefill bottle needs to be filled in any country that doesn't use the UK-standard bayonet fitting, when an adapter will be required. Snag is that the Safefill bottle's outlet-valve is female-threaded to take a UK-standard male LH-threaded POL fitting. Now, you can obtain adapters that have that type of fitting (usually marketed so that Calor-type bottles can be (illegally) refilled), but not all of them have a 'check valve' to prevent LPG from exiting the bottle should the autogas pump-gun be disconnected from the bottle without the user first closing the bottle's outlet-valve. The Safefill bottle itself has an a built-in check-valve, but this will be overridden if a POL-type adapter is used.

 

So, if anyone feels like getting a Safefill bottle and plans to use it outside the UK, a) a suitable adapter will be required and b) it would be wise for that adapter to incorporate a check-valve. An example is shown on this link:

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LPG-Propane-Autogas-Gas-bottle-filling-adapter-4-EUROPE-/160703554234?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item256aada2ba#ht_1173wt_959