BGD Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 From the Daily Torygraph this morning: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8954794/David-Cameron-pledges-to-look-carefully-at-cheap-alcohol-after-warning-from-doctors.html Personally I was astonished at what I see as the utter idiocy of this "idea", but I wonder what other people think about it. So, would it be right for the UK Government to introduce a National Minimum Price per unit of alcohol sold at retail level, across England and Wales? Is this Government interference and regulation gone utterly mad, or is it a necessary step by the State to protect people from themselves? Is this punishing the poor at the expense of the rich? What would a "fair" NMP price be? Would it have any effect at all on reducing binge-drinking, or is it just a thinly-disguised, further hike in indirect taxation? Discuss................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Well,I don't know the details of these new proposal..but they do need to curb these "deals" that the supermarkets run. Our local Morrison(I think it was?)had a "Buy one,get two free" offer on 12can trays of cider this summer.... Presumably as any new legislation would be aimed at the low end(..the cheap'n'nasty tasting lager,cider,wines etc),they may not be the products that users of this site would be concerned with...maybe... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 As a virtually non drinker I would be happy to see drinkers paying more like the true cost of the mayhem that they self inflict on the NHS, town centres and Police and Ambulance resources. If it is good enough for motorists to heavily subsidise the exchequer then why not drinkers too and if as a side effect we get safer, cleaner, quieter town centres then that would be quite a result would it not? It is perhaps a shame that a large minority are incapable of any form of self control and it is equally a shame that responsible drinkers will be penalised as well - but if not this what other steps can be taken to return the Police and Hospitals to their primary role of looking after the needy and not the self inflicted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mrs Batty Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 May be cause a huge problem - news running on the way to work (remeber work anyone ??? lol) regarding illegally made booze. Mainly spirits and usually vodka. As a drinker for a few years - well actually all my years vodka would be the one to 'clone' as it is mostly consumed with mixers to add taste. However the samples / bottles / crates siezed to date when sent to the lab are horrific. Containing loads of extremley harmful chemicals added to aid the creation of alcohol. Many raids to date appear to be on corner shops with late night opening. Appreciate that these outlets are under massive financial pressure from the 'big boys' of retail but some are now selling drink that could kill not from excess but from content. I am concerned that if a minimum charge for drink was to come about - underground production of booze would rocket due to supply and demand with the demand mainly now being for cheap drinks. Does this go back a long time and the duty / tax in our country has been hightend over the years to such a level that with a recesion the old stills were bound to reappear for production of moonshine ? Anyway on a HUGLEY more important point Morrison's have 4 litre boxes of rose wine on offer this week !!!!! lol May increase Mrs Battys shopping allowance this week :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 I dont care about the price of beer or cider as long as scotch remains reasonably unaffected :-D The serious question is would making alchohol more expensive stop young inexperienced drinkers getting poo faced and causing trouble in the streets ..... I think not. Drink is cheap in a lot of countrys and they dont seem to have a problem with young drinkers. Me thinks its a british culture thing and that the cost is irrelevent. Anyway why should I have to pay more for an evening tipple just because of a few loonies and or a few folk who drink to much and have to go to hospital :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Having had 30 years experience of drink fuelled people it's about time something was done. Like Tracker said, the cost to the NHS is enormous. Personally I would raise the tax on alcohol significantly to compensate for the billions that it costs the NHS or the other option is for those who cause problems to be hit by the cost of treatment. This however will not compensate those in the firing line dealing with those who are hell bent on trouble once they've smelled the bar maids apron. The amount of abuse and threats that I've had to take without being able to retalliate I could write a book about. One of my last experiences before I had to finish with a long term back problem didn't concern the parylytic drunk youth but his mate. On the way into casualty, I was driving, my colleague had to take threats and abuse all the way in. On arrival at the hospital my fuse had finally burnt out and I opened the ambulance doors, grabbed him by the throat and dragged him up against the casualty outside wall. Thankfully, although I had my fist raised, I calmed down sufficently not to drop him. He then started again wanting my name and threatening to report me which did concern me because I didn't want to lose my job after 30 years for the sake of a lowlife. Ironically, after having to take the ambulance back to station to clean out the vomit which his mate projected everywhere, he later came over and apologised. Thankfully within months I had to finish and wild horses couldn't drag me back although if I was forceably made to go back I think I'd top myself. My patience sadly isn't what it used to be. Doing that job nobody should be open to the threats and abuse that, along with doctors, nurses, police etc. they have to take and the problem must be addressed at once because this country is in moral decline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 ips - 2011-12-16 2:27 PM Anyway why should I have to pay more for an evening tipple just because of a few loonies and or a few folk who drink to much and have to go to hospital :-S I can assure you it's more than just a few. You needn't go to town of a weekend to experience it. Just watch one of the fly on the wall programmes following the police, paramedics or casualty units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Still cant see why I should be penalised I dont even go out ! Thugs will just nick more stuff or deal more stuff in order to afford it. Price increase wont stop it IMO. Luckily I can afford a few quid extra on me bottle of scotch and even a few quid on me cigars so I aint that bothered but what about the young bloke on average income who likes a bottle of wine or whatever with his mrs after a hard days graft, he might acctually miss the pound or so extra for his tipple just because of some low life loonies that we are attempting to stop drinking just by putting a coupleof quid on a bottle/can etc .............. unfair IMO.... and it also wont work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 And what about all the pubs that will close as a consequence?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Just a comment, without any judgement being made, but we have spent months touring Norway, Sweden and Finland and noticed there that the price of alcohol is about twice what it is in the UK. Anything above 5% can only be sold in a government controlled and operated shop, a nice bottle of a single malt will cost £50 plus. The reason quoted to us is simple: price is the main factor limiting use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Good point .... very few of em now as it is. Cant remember the last time I went in one but thats mainly due to the smoking ban. If I have to stand outside to smoke me cigar then I may as well stand at my own back door....but thats off the subject. :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BGD Posted December 16, 2011 Author Share Posted December 16, 2011 ips - 2011-12-16 2:27 PM I dont care about the price of beer or cider as long as scotch remains reasonably unaffected :-D The serious question is would making alchohol more expensive stop young inexperienced drinkers getting poo faced and causing trouble in the streets ..... I think not. Drink is cheap in a lot of countrys and they dont seem to have a problem with young drinkers. Me thinks its a british culture thing and that the cost is irrelevent. Anyway why should I have to pay more for an evening tipple just because of a few loonies and or a few folk who drink to much and have to go to hospital :-S I'm rather with ips on this one. As Postnote knows only too well, (as he's personally part-funding it every month....thank you little pug, good doggie) we enjoy a life of relaxation, warmth, and comparative luxury over here in Spain. Alcohol prices are MUCH lower than in the UK. Young Spanish people do indeed get utterly ratted, regularly. But here's the thing. They don't get violent. They get happy, they dance. they sing, they hug, they invite you back to their homes for supper, they pass out. But they don't get violent; they don't fight. They don't wreck bus stops or phone booths. They don't urinate on War memorials. They don't riot. They don't mug old people. Same is true, at least in my experience, in Portugal. We've lived here for nine year now, largely thanks to the largess of the Pug-dog, and I have seen only two fights in all that time. Both were between alcohol-full, British yobs, here on holiday. Now I accept that my view is based only upon what I have personally witnessed of these two cultures; but it seems to me that the problems associated with predominantly young people in the UK getting deliberately utterly ratted, and then violent, have nothing to to do with the retail price of alcohol. I think the causes are far more fundamental than that within British society, and that observers are wrongly blaming alcohol prices for binge-consumption. For me, it's totally a culture/behaviour/fashion/education/punishment issue, it really sin't a price issue at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 If wine gets much more expensive I will have to get the home brew kit out of the loft :D I used to quite enjoy making elderberry wine, and reckon ours was as good as a nice Shiraz ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-16 1:40 PM. If it is good enough for motorists to heavily subsidise the exchequer then why not drinkers too and if as a side effect we get safer, cleaner, quieter town centres then that would be quite a result would it not? Well we have certainly got quieter town centers around here, most of the shops are up for sale. Then it gets exiting at night when the drunks put the bl**dy windows through and people are then sick skating after about midnight. Very entertaining :-) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 We drink mainly wine with the occasional pint of Old Speckled Hen if the weather is hot. Living in Kent we pop over to France twice a year to stock up on wine so as long as the French don't decide to put a special tax on us Brits we should be fine. Years ago we used to buy lots of products in France but with the exchange rate as it is and with UK supermarket special offers it's only the wine that is significantly cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 peter - 2011-12-16 3:00 PM And what about all the pubs that will close as a consequence?. ...But would minimum pricing hit pubs?...as they don't sell the cheapie, "quid a litre" stuff anyway... ..it's the supermarkets that need looking at..most "youngsters" will openly admit to getting three parts cut before they even go out... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 BGD - 2011-12-16 3:19 PM ....Young Spanish people do indeed get utterly ratted, regularly. But here's the thing. They don't get violent. They get happy, they dance. they sing, they hug, they invite you back to their homes for supper, they pass out. But they don't get violent; they don't fight. They don't wreck bus stops or phone booths. They don't urinate on War memorials. They don't riot. They don't mug old people...... ....Now I accept that my view is based only upon what I have personally witnessed of these two cultures; but it seems to me that the problems associated with predominantly young people in the UK getting deliberately utterly ratted, and then violent, have nothing to to do with the retail price of alcohol. I think the causes are far more fundamental than that within British society, and that observers are wrongly blaming alcohol prices for binge-consumption. For me, it's totally a culture/behaviour/fashion/education/punishment issue, it really sin't a price issue at all. Interesting what you say there BGD.. We go to quite a few music festivals throughout the year and have done for many years and we've never witnessed ANY violent behaviour..like you, we witness folk getting lively,hugging,having a dance etc(...okay,some may fall asleep where they shouldn't ;-) )but on the whole a lovely time is had by one and all. However,we do choose festivals very carefully.....Glastonbury(esque) festivals are fine but the Leeds/Reading types are a real no no for us... :-S ..and on our first trip "into town" at night, after we've been at a festival,you can "sense" the general unfriendly and at times,downright aggressive atmosphere... 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 We, up here above the wall, are getting minimum pricing next year courtesy of the Scottish Executive. Some supermarkets are planning to oppose it as they feel it breaks EU laws but the Executive state they feel it is legal. We have already had bulk buy discounts banned but in compensation the supermarkets reduced the individual prices to the same net cost. So you could buy one pack of beers for the same price as it was for 2. As you can see from the attached article the aim is to reduce the wilder side of alcohol abuse, although I feel that if more attention was paid to Clubs that offer 'all drinks £1' for the night then we may reduce the disgusting things that happen on our streets at night. http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/public_wrong_to_be_sceptical_on_minimum_alcohol_prices_insist_experts_1_1847227 Of course we have already had a few attempts at stopping the 'Buckie buyers' (Buckfast wine to those not familiar) but there are some at that level of degradation which are beyond redemption. Will it being introduced here and not England lead to cross border trafficking in booze cruises, I doubt it. It may also lead the Westminster government to follow suit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 10 years ago when we lived near Colchester, and we had the spare dosh to eat out a couple of times a week :D...........We found we had to eat early to avoid the town centre yobs..............In the end we rarely used the restaurants in town and would get a taxi to places in the country *-) I think a minimum price would actually help the pub trade ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enodreven Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Hi, When I watch the police programs on the TV where they try to Police the city centres at night, I have noticed the absence of cans I have never actually seen any of the people who are quiet obviously p*ssed out of there brains carrying cans from the local supermarket, What I have seen and heard is that most of the problems started inside a club and the persons concerned were ejected and that's when most of it kicks off in the early hours of the morning, nothing to do with people buying cheap booze, The Licencee's of these's clubs have a legal responsibility not to serve people who are clearly the worse for wear, how come these people leaving or being ejected from these clubs are in such a state. I really doubt that they have been sitting around the corner of the club drinking their cheap booze until 2 am in the morning and then approach the club and try to get in being already p*ssed and being ejected at the same time. More likely they have quiet obviously been in the club all evening and into the small hours being served as much drink as they want with no questions and then when they get completely out of hand they are thrown out on the street to let the rest of us deal with. The Clubs should be responsible for the cost of the Police similar to a football club, and it should be ZERO tolerance on Licencee's any one leaving a Licensed establishment who is clearly p*ssed the Licencee should lose there licence immediately, you wouldn't need it to happen more than a couple of times and you would see a rapid drop in the problem. If supermarkets are made to charge a minimum rate places like Eastenders and the French Supermarkets etc. in Calais will rub their hands together, absolutely stupid law and should never be brought in as we don't need to export any more jobs etc to Europe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Braunston is spot on. It's the clubs that sell cheap booze by having happy hours and other promotions that are the biggest offenders. They ply the customers with drink and after they become paralytic the bouncers chuck them out in the street. Being no good for business by having drunks piling up on their door the club would ring 999 and it was our job to clear the gutters. At one time the police would put them in a cell and when they had sobered up they would be charged with being drunk and disorderly and sent on their way. This stopped sometime in the 80s after a few died in police custody by choking on their own vomit. It was then that it became the ambulance services job to keep the gutters clean. The only place we could take them was casualty departments, who didn't want them because they blocked beds, created havoc from threats, assaults, swearing and vomit. In the incident that I mentioned in my post above we were off the road for one hour cleaning out the vomit depriving those who needed an ambulance from no fault of their own. Not long before I finished I was overheard complaining about drunks by one of our wet behind the ears, two years out of university, politically correct officers who proceeded to dress me down informing me that those who have drunk too much alcohol are some of the most seriuosly ill patients. Another reason I was glad to finish before I dropped him *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Lord Braykewynde - 2011-12-16 8:32 PM Not long before I finished I was overheard complaining about drunks by one of our wet behind the ears, two years out of university, politically correct officers who proceeded to dress me down informing me that those who have drunk too much alcohol are some of the most seriuosly ill patients. Another reason I was glad to finish before I dropped him *-) Spot on your Lordship ;-)........................That's just one of the reasons I think like the middle East we could do with a dam good revolution >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted December 16, 2011 Share Posted December 16, 2011 Interesting points - but it's still not that long ago that the Government extended Licencing Hours. So who's is to blame. (?) Looks like again the Government(s) want their Cake with Tax Icing, instead of addressing the root causes, as BGD highlighted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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