Guest Tracker Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-12-29 6:59 PM I can't see anything on Smile's webpage that would make me believe that the charge and interest applied to Tracker's currency purchase were unjustified according to Smile's terms and conditions. If that's an accurate analysis, then agreeing to refund the charge/interest seems dangerously precedental, as, if Smile has agreed to treat the currency purchase as an ordinary UK purchase transaction (hence no up-front charge and with a lengthy interest-free period), the bank seems to have given Tracker a free loan. It all comes down to the definition of words I suppose and I still fail to see how buying a packet of Euro notes from a third party via the postal service is any different from buying anything else with a credit or debit card - particularly a debit card as you are using your own money not the banks - but they still charge. As far as using a credit card goes it could be argued that buying anything that can be converted in to cash and used for other purposes - as in sold on by the buyer - is technically no different to buying a packet of currency which can be spent just the same as a foreign currency or a cash advance but without having to be converted first. Any credit card purchase is therefore in effect a loan and they should all be treated the same so if it is right to charge interest on buying cash whether by post, ATM or over a counter then it follows that the same fees and rate of interest should be charged on merchandise purchases too. The fact that the banks 'waive' interest charges if the account is settled in full by the due date is very generous of them and is about all we get for nothing these days but it should apply equally to all uses of the card regardless of whether it be deemed cash or goods. To discriminate is - err - what should I call it - err yes I know - discrimination!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sophie Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Don't get too excited fellahs. The Banks are not obliged to scrap those Debit Charges until the end of 2012- and "Smile" told me that that's when they'll remove their charges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Not getting that excited Sophie - but that's another story!! We're just debating an interesting issue of rights and wrongs in the polite and respectful way that is the hallmark of this fine forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Well, so far as I can see notes is cash, whatever denomination or currency may have been bought. Cash is what is then used to buy goods or services, or even currency. Goods or services are not cash, they are goods or services. So, I can't understand why buying Euros (or USD or whatever) shouldn't be treated as a cash transaction, irrespective of whether you walk into a bureau-de-change and buy them over the counter, or Postman Pat delivers them. After all, a bottle of wine is a bottle of wine, whether bought with cash, debit card or debit card. So how can foreign currency notes (cash when you are in the country whose currency you have bought) get converted into the equivalent of a bottle of wine (i.e goods), merely because they were bought using a credit card. I ain't arf confused! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 29, 2011 Share Posted December 29, 2011 Well 'oose bloomin side are you on then Brian? If I gets cash from a bank or cash machine it's cash innit? If I gets summat from a third party what is not a bank why does it matter to the bank what I gets? Whether tis cash or goods or a service - it matters not what t'invoice sez cos my transaction is not with the bank for tis with another party to provide a service - which just 'appens to be a packet of paper - what difference does that make to the bank - all they are doing is acting as an enabler to enable the transaction - it's not their cash I'm buying - it's someone elses so what does it matter that instead of goods or services it is currency? It's just a money making scam that the banks have been using for years and getting away with for too long and just because their 'terms and conditions' enable them to charge does not make it right. For years nobody stood up to the banks over unfair bank charges and then when the customers revolted and complained it got changed - see any similarities - anyone? And at long last I'm not the only one who sees it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 Tracker I think there are two different scenarios here. When you use a credit card to buy goods the retailer has a thing called a merchant account with the card issuers, they are charged a fee for the transactions done this way, which in a way is hidden from the public as the fee is hidden in the retailers retail price, be that for goods or services, a washing machine, or a theatre ticket it's all the same. Someone paying cash is also effectively paying that fee, but that is why cash is king when you can argue for a discount of the advertised price as the retailer will not incur a merchants fee, although I doubt the likes of Tesco will give you one, when a smaller retailer may. However if you use one to effectively have a short term cash loan, which is exactly what you are doing by withdrawing any currency using the same method ( credit card ), you are at least avoiding a payday loan, the likes of Provident that I used in the dark distant past who used to charge around 900% and some more modern providers as much as 2000% that are on the TV. Or the good old pawn shop can I have 200 Euros against my old watch chain,then have to pay 300 to get it back in a months time. So their charges pale into insignificance if you think of it that way. Considering most of us enjoy free banking from our personal current accounts,using your Debit card and then have the convenience to walk into some small French town, have a machine that instantly translates into English, and gives me some local currency is nothing short of amazing, and the cost of the infrastructure that allows that to happen, especially when you remember the hassle of the past, so I have to pay for the service, is that really any surprise, not really, someone somewhere has to pay for that service to be provided, and I think on reflection you'll probably agree that has to be the case, how else could it work, you got lucky, and I'm sure they cocked up refunding you, count your blessings. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 30, 2011 Share Posted December 30, 2011 As far as I'm concerned, the logic, morality, fairness, (whatever), of how, or why, or how much a credit-card provider charges for a particular service is academic - if those charges are defined in the provider's terms and conditions, then it should be anticipated that the charges will be levied on that service and it should not be expected that the provider will agree to refund those charges retrospectively. Tesco's Clubcard/Travel Money arrangement is a special case, as is Santander's Zero credit-card. Otherwise, the normal terms and conditions for credit-cards seem to be broadly similar to Smile's when it comes to obtaining foreign currency in the UK - the transaction will be treated as a cash advance, with an immediate fee, a high rate of interest accruing from the transaction date and no interest-free period. That's so with my Barclaycard and Nationwide credit-cards. As Smile's credit-card terms and conditions seemed clear enough to me regarding how the bank would treat Tracker's foreign currency purchase, and Smile's terms and conditions were similar to those of many (most?) other credit-card providers, I was surprised (and remain surprised) that Smile chose to refund the charge/interest that had been applied to Tracker's transaction. It's no novelty that obtaining travel money in the UK via a credit-card will more than likely attract a hefty interest charge and/or a substantial 'cash advance' fee. I don't know how widely this is known, but I suspect that many forum members will be well aware of it. It's highlighted in paragraphs 5 and 6 respectively on the following webpages: http://www.which.co.uk/money/bills-and-budgeting/guides/travel-money/buying-travel-money-on-the-high-street/ http://www.which.co.uk/money/bills-and-budgeting/guides/travel-money/buying-travel-money-online/ I'm perfectly happy with Tracker's original suggestion that, if you are charged fees for the type of foreign currency transaction he describes, complain and demand a refund (Why not - what have you got to lose?), but I believe that other credit-card providers with similar terms and conditions to Smile's regarding foreign currency purchase may prove much less amenable to an "unjustified and unfair charges" argument. If the terms and conditions for your credit-card indicate that a fee and/or interest are likely to be charged for purchasing travel money in the UK and you aren't comfortable paying the fee/interest, then just choose another way to obtain the foreign currency. I'm sure that's what Alexander the Meerkat would advise... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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