Robbed in Spain

[nightrider]

Peter,

I have the distinct impression that you have more sympathy for the villains than the victims, we are agreed that the have nots have got to survive somehow, and I say we are moving fast into the Mad Max scenario where roving gangs will take off the haves in order to survive.

[Guest Peter James]

knight of the road - 2011-12-24 2:28 PM

 

Peter,

I have the distinct impression that you have more sympathy for the villains than the victims,

 

I can't say that because not all 'villains' are the same, and not all 'victims' are the same.

 

Shelter reported people dying of hyperthermia and malnutrition on the streets of Britain last winter. If Tony Blair walked down the street carrying a £10,000 Rolex and one of them nicked it, who would you have more sympathy for?

 

I think they must be desperate to go out stealing.

Although these thieves went to some lengths to avoid violence, clearly intending only petty theft, we have seen people are prepared to carry and use fearful weapons against them. If these thieves had responded in self defence, who would have got the blame for the violence?

Clue: As soon as they were in Police/Prison Custody they would not be allowed to talk to the press, so we would only hear one side's version of events

[Guest peter]

My only post on this topic.

The problem is that the haves want it all and then some. When somone loses his job through no fault of his own and probably through the greed of some speculator, he is going to feel agrieved, as he still has his mortgage to pay and his family to support, No excuse for crime I know, but what's a desperate man to do. Of course the other side of the coin is, that the criminal is also one of the greedy ones and is no different to the city hustler. But steals outside the law. My opinion is that most thieves are not desperate for money and see stealing as a career choice as it's probably more rewarding than working and the chances of being caught a minimal. It's only the thick and stupid ones that end up in our jails. The clever ones are either luxuriating in some sun spot or working in the city.

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2011-12-24 2:09 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2011-12-24 12:41 PM

However, what I do find interesting is that it seems to be a certain group of individuals who commit nearly all the crime across the country,

 

Since less than 1% of crime is detected, how do we know who is committing 'nearly all' of it?

By the same token, how would we know it is less than 1%, more than 1%, or indeed any percentage? For there to be evidence for any percentage, there surely must have been detection. Failing that, the best than can be said for the figure is that it is purely speculative?

 

The claim that the same groups consistently commit most of the crimes within an area, comes from the police and, I gather, court, and prison records, and are frequently reported in the media. If they are wrong, what evidence do you have to the contrary, including any to support your apparently logically illiterate claim above?

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Peter James, is like a record stuck in the same groove " they must be desperate to go out stealing" perhaps he has taken a poll amongst them and that's what they have told him, or more likely works for the probation service or the like. For me it is much more simple, like the recent rioters, they made the judgement there was likely to be a decent TV to be had for free, just go and nick it, not desperate, but much easier than working and saving for one, for Gods sake Mr James give us all a break with the "no choice and desperate" bulls**t. Do you really think that applies equally to car ringers for example, or they less desperate,but can see a good earner out of it, again for not much effort. In the not too distant past I knew very many dodgy blokes, and I can tell you none of them were desperate, but all just looking for an easy buck.

[JamesFrance]

braunston - 2011-12-23 7:35 PM

 

The Spanish Jails are full of Spanish People the same as most other countries, so please don't blame immigration,

 

JamesFrance - 2011-12-23 5:47 PM

 

Don't blame Spain and the Spanish. Try blaming stupid politicians who encourage mass immigration. It is just the same all over the EU.

 

We know a lot of Spanish people and none of them look anything like the several characters who have tried to rob us over the years. I don't remember any spectators being around at the time though.

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2011-12-24 3:38 PM

For there to be evidence for any percentage, there surely must have been detection.

 

No, reported crime is much higher than those where someone has been caught committing it.

And I think we all know not all crime is reported.

For instance, stock losses in shops are far higher than shoplifters caught.

Less than 1% of crime results in a conviction is just something I read from a Crime Survey. Whilst I cannot confirm that, I see no reason to doubt it.

My point is that politicians assertions about the type of people who commit crimes can only be based on the tiny minority of crimes which are detected.

 

The prisons are full of mainly young men of low intellect. I agree its not surprising they are the ones most likely to get caught.

 

[Guest Peter James]

1footinthegrave - 2011-12-24 3:46 PM

like the recent rioters, they made the judgement there was likely to be a decent TV to be had for free, just go and nick it, not desperate, but much easier than working and saving for one.

 

They are the ones who got caught Victor. Who didn't go out prepared (wearing a hood so they couldn't be identified on the CCTV). The non violent stragglers who were alone and still there when the police arrived, unlike the weapon wielding mob who broke in and were first away. They carried the can for the lot. As I recall one got about 2 years for helping himself to a case of water from an already looted shop. Another got prison for accepting a pair of looted shorts, although she had slept through the riots.

 

Compare the amount of stuff looted with the amount people were caught with.

[nightrider]

The police say that they have got the villains on the run and are beating crime, I dont think they are its like a tidal wave sweeping the country. to avoid becoming a statistic i am reviewing my home security and also that of my M/H.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Peter James - 2011-12-24 4:17 PM

 

1footinthegrave - 2011-12-24 3:46 PM

like the recent rioters, they made the judgement there was likely to be a decent TV to be had for free, just go and nick it, not desperate, but much easier than working and saving for one.

 

They are the ones who got caught Victor. Who didn't go out prepared (wearing a hood so they couldn't be identified on the CCTV). The non violent stragglers who were alone and still there when the police arrived, unlike the weapon wielding mob who broke in and were first away. They carried the can for the lot. As I recall one got about 2 years for helping himself to a case of water from an already looted shop. Another got prison for accepting a pair of looted shorts, although she had slept through the riots.

 

Compare the amount of stuff looted with the amount people were caught with.

 

Perhaps you've started on the seasonal liquid refreshments already, because for the life of me I cannot understand the point you are trying to make, and frankly I do not care because I'm going to go now and do that very thing. Oh and by the way my name is not Victor, but thanks for the compliment all the same.

[Brian Kirby]

Peter James - 2011-12-24 4:07 PM

 

Brian Kirby - 2011-12-24 3:38 PM

For there to be evidence for any percentage, there surely must have been detection.

 

No, reported crime is much higher than those where someone has been caught committing it.

And I think we all know not all crime is reported.

For instance, stock losses in shops are far higher than shoplifters caught.

Less than 1% of crime results in a conviction is just something I read from a Crime Survey. Whilst I cannot confirm that, I see no reason to doubt it.

My point is that politicians assertions about the type of people who commit crimes can only be based on the tiny minority of crimes which are detected.

 

The prisons are full of mainly young men of low intellect. I agree its not surprising they are the ones most likely to get caught.

Ah, well, that is rather different to what you said: "Since less than 1% of crime is detected, how do we know who is committing 'nearly all' of it?".

 

However, if you were meaning crime for which someone was convicted, then I still think the figure must be way out. The following are from Home Office and Department of Justice figures for 2010.

 

On average it seems there are a little over 4,000,000 crimes reported in the UK each year (for that to equate to 1% of the total, it would imply 400,000,000 actual crimes committed!). That is about 1 crime for every 15 of the total population, or a bit over 6.5%. Of these crimes, about 25% are "brought to justice" (meaning convicted, cautioned, the subject of a penalty notice, or taken into account when sentencing). So, 75% "get away with it".

 

UK prison population is around 97,000, so clearly many offences do not result in prison sentences. In fact, most recorded crimes are assaults (48%), mostly carried by (surprisingly) young men on other young men. Ditto most thefts, with an age profile starting at 12, peaking around 15/16, and falling off to around 18, when it flattens out. Commonest, amazingly, is theft from school! Now there's bright! That same age profile seems to run across nearly all crimes except drug related crimes where the maximum offending age is greater with the peak at about 18-20. So, it seems anyone wanting an immediate reduction in recorded crime, should consider keeping the boys locked in school! (lol)

 

Happy Christmas - and keep your presents away from the kids! :-D

[Bulletguy]

Brian Kirby - 2011-12-24 12:41 PM

Locking them up periodically removes them from the rest of us, so to that extent it works, but then they are released and the cycle runs again. They could, perhaps, be permanently locked up, which would stop their antics, but would present a very costly and difficult to control prison environment. If you deny all hope, what incentive to reform is there? What we have to try, that has never yet been tried, is to actively reform the individuals.

 

Had these individuals been caught by the Police Brian and I was given a choice between having them sent to Prison or restitution, I would choose the latter. Have them put to hard manual labour until every penny cent has been repaid, only allowing them to live on the very bare minimum.

 

Prison is a learning centre where scumbags like these lads end up honing their craft further still and becoming even more skilled with more knowledge. Not to mention the three meals a day, free television, and accommodation all paid for by the honest tax paying public.

 

Yes we need to have Prison sentences for serious criminal acts such as murder, rape etc.....but IMO it's a total waste sending petty thieves to Prison where nobody wins, except the thieves.

 

Reforming petty thieves could be achieved by putting them to hard manual labour. The only problem is you would have the pc potty lot screeching about Human rights.

 

Back OT I have received email reply from the first of the six MEP's I have contacted. Just letting me know that due to the Christmas break they will be unable to reply until the New Year, which I expected anyway, but at least I know it's got through.

 

I've had much time to dwell on what happened but am still very concerned that I found far from being a 'one off' event it has been going on for years, particularly in that area.

 

With this in mind I am going to suggest to my MEP's to campaign for some kind of permanent fixed signs on the AutoPista's, warning all motorists about the high risk of active 'bandidos'. That the Spanish Government (and Police) appear to be sleeping is not good enough.

 

And if I still come up against a brick wall........then I have one final card left to play which i'm keeping close to my chest for the moment.

 

 

[Guest Peter James]

Brian Kirby - 2011-12-24 6:30 PM

 

Ah, well, that is rather different to what you said: "Since less than 1% of crime is detected, how do we know who is committing 'nearly all' of it?".-D

 

Sorry, when I said detected I meant the culprit found. We should not assume those 1% (or whatever) who are found are representative of all criminals.

It also depends on what you consider a crime. There has been a huge surge in the number of people cautioned for petty offences like dropping litter or posessing a small amount of cannabis, things a court might throw out for being too trivial, but they count on the statistics as a solved crime!

Since shoplifting is a crime, its not unreasonable to count all the stock which is unaccounted for as crime too. So we would end up with a huge figure.

[Guest Peter James]

Bulletguy - 2011-12-24 6:43 PM

free television,

 

The televisions in English prisons are paid for from prisoners earnings, and are allowed so they can be withdrawn as a punishment.

[JamesFrance]

Peter James - 2011-12-24 9:18 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2011-12-24 6:43 PM

free television,

 

The televisions in English prisons are paid for from prisoners earnings, and are allowed so they can be withdrawn as a punishment.

 

How much do you 'earn' ?

[Guest pelmetman]

peter - 2011-12-24 3:18 PM

 

My only post on this topic.

The problem is that the haves want it all and then some. When somone loses his job through no fault of his own and probably through the greed of some speculator, he is going to feel agrieved, as he still has his mortgage to pay and his family to support, No excuse for crime I know, but what's a desperate man to do. Of course the other side of the coin is, that the criminal is also one of the greedy ones and is no different to the city hustler. But steals outside the law. My opinion is that most thieves are not desperate for money and see stealing as a career choice as it's probably more rewarding than working and the chances of being caught a minimal. It's only the thick and stupid ones that end up in our jails. The clever ones are either luxuriating in some sun spot or working in the city.

 

I don't disagree with that Peter ;-).........................But I do disagree with the other Peter who appears to be a excuse merchant for criminals *-).....................I reckon its high time we had a change of "R" word ;-)............from rehabilitation to retribution >:-(

 

Its about time the boot was on the victims foot *-)

[Guest Peter James]

JamesFrance - 2011-12-24 8:38 PM

 

Peter James - 2011-12-24 9:18 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2011-12-24 6:43 PM

free television,

 

The televisions in English prisons are paid for from prisoners earnings, and are allowed so they can be withdrawn as a punishment.

 

How much do you 'earn' ?

 

The last I heard it was about £6 per week for those doing work in the prison. It hadn't been increased for 15 years, and the Prison Service wanted to increase it a bit, since its an incentive for prisoners to work, to pay for stamps and phone calls (which are far more expensive in prison than out) to keep in touch with family so they might have something to come out to, and perhaps to save a little money so they are not drawn into crime to make ends meet as soon as they are released.

But, fearful of the Daily Mail etc headlines before the election, Gordon Brown blocked the pay increase.

[Guest pelmetman]

Peter James - 2011-12-24 8:52 PM

 

JamesFrance - 2011-12-24 8:38 PM

 

Peter James - 2011-12-24 9:18 PM

 

Bulletguy - 2011-12-24 6:43 PM

free television,

 

The televisions in English prisons are paid for from prisoners earnings, and are allowed so they can be withdrawn as a punishment.

 

How much do you 'earn' ?

 

The last I heard it was about £6 per week for those doing work in the prison. It hadn't been increased for 15 years, and the Prison Service wanted to increase it a bit, since its an incentive for prisoners to work, to pay for stamps and phone calls (which are far more expensive in prison than out) to keep in touch with family so they might have something to come out to, and perhaps to save a little money so they are not drawn into crime to make ends meet as soon as they are released.

But, fearful of the Daily Mail etc headlines before the election, Gordon Brown blocked the pay increase.

£6 a week 8-).......................That's a crime against the tax payer...............talk about rubbing our noses in it *-).................We pay for their nice comfy cells and give them pocket money for being good little criminals (!)

[Guest Peter James]

pelmetman - 2011-12-24 8:46 PM

...................I reckon its high time we had a change of "R" word ;-)............from rehabilitation to retribution

 

We are always changing backwards and forwards between rehabilitation, and retribution - when the politicians become fearful of the gutter press headlines.. Thats the problem, there is little consistency, and the rehabilitation programmes don't get time to work.

 

This is how they do it in Norway, and it works. But imagine the Daily Mail headlines if they did it here http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2008/nov/14/norway-prison-erwin-james?INTCMP=SRCH

[LordThornber]

Peter James - 2011-12-24 9:16 PM

 

We are always changing backwards and forwards between rehabilitation, and retribution - when the politicians become fearful of the gutter press headlines.. Thats the problem, there is little consistency, and the rehabilitation programmes don't get time to work.

 

 

A very accurate assessment in my view. Good post.

 

Martyn

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Perhaps if the schooling system did not allow those that simply want to drop out of the system,or be in schools that are hamstrung by being unable to administer discipline, with newly qualified teachers leaving in droves there would be less of the "disadvantaged" leaving school and ending up in prison.

 

I can tell you that since the 1960's that prisons no longer act as the deterrent they once did, youngsters in particular laugh at the "punishment" given out to them, ASBO's being a point in case, worn like a badge of pride, and middle class probation officers who are so out of touch with the world so many of these "disadvantaged" folk inhabit, their ability to manipulate them is a walk in the park. Perhaps if we were living in the depressed era of the 30's we could talk about REAL disadvantage, but we are not.

 

There will always be a hard core of criminality,and for others prison is a risk worth taking, especially with the efforts of the likes of the Howard League for PR, making it a soft option, and part of the risk assessment before going equipped to do a job.

 

There is every opportunity today via the internet, and distance learning for people to educate themselves if they really want to, without resorting to thieving , and again without an army of social workers or liberal minded apologists rushing to their aid and defence AFTER they have robbed you or I, so once again I say, understand a little less, and condemn a little more.

 

[Geoff Tuckley]

When we were robbed in Spain last winter the police (and I use the term lightly) told us that the guy had previously been arrested on twenty different occasions and the girl on many occasions before. They spent time trying to convince us that these people were S. American until we IDd them and they were Spanish. A Brit who lives in The s.........hole they call Barcelona said that the whole city is a nightmare because of streetcrime which is heroin driven. He had been robbed three times on the street during five years living there. Now I know that they are victims of heroin and not just thieving scum I feel better toward them.

[BGD]

Geoff Tuckley - 2011-12-26 12:31 PM

 

When we were robbed in Spain last winter the police (and I use the term lightly) told us that the guy had previously been arrested on twenty different occasions and the girl on many occasions before. They spent time trying to convince us that these people were S. American until we IDd them and they were Spanish. A Brit who lives in The s.........hole they call Barcelona said that the whole city is a nightmare because of streetcrime which is heroin driven. He had been robbed three times on the street during five years living there. Now I know that they are victims of heroin and not just thieving scum I feel better toward them.

 

 

 

Perceptions are often at odds with the facts I guess.

 

I think that Barcelona is one of the finest, prettiest, liveliest, most artistic, friendly, vibrant cities in Europe.

 

 

 

 

It might be worth people reading the survey results that led to this report:

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html

 

 

 

 

Just to be clear on the facts:

 

You have far more chance of being robbed in the UK than Spain.

You have far more chance of being assaulted in the UK than Spain.

You have far more chance of being murdered in the UK than Spain.

You have far more chance of your vehicle being broken into or stolen in the UK than Spain.

You have far more chance of your possessions being stolen in the UK than Spain.

 

 

Regardless of what the Brits think about Johnny Foreigners countries, the UK has in fact the highest recorded crime rates of any country in Europe, and is now far and away the most violent place in Europe.

 

Johnny Foreigner is actually at much higher risk of being robbed, assaulted, murdered, or of having his possessions stolen in your country than you are in his country.

 

[Geoff Tuckley]

Sorry, but we are well travelled and have spent a lot of time living in Greece and speak two European languages fluently as well as English.. We do not have an aversion to anyone from another country and firmly believe in "When in Rome" but do not look through rose tinted spectacles at a country because we happen to like being there or live there and want everone to know how good it is. Never been robbed in UK, never had a vehicle broken into in UK, in fact never really had a problem. The fact is that if a country like Spain depends on tourism they should, at the very least have an effective police force which actually wants to try and control street crime so people will go there and spend the money they so eagerly desire. One gets the idea that they do not want to even try.

[Guest Peter James]

Just my observations. But when you hear of English tourists being mugged on the streets in Spain, it usually turns out to be someone who has made themselves a very easy target. Typically by getting blind drunk, losing their way, and staggering back to their hotel alone at 2am.