Syd Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Had a Combi fitted earlier this year, found three leaks due to bad workmanship, fixed them and topping the system up happened every two/three days, fitted new radiator end connections and thermostats to every radiator and did a quick search for further leaks, non found. Topping up now lasts for about a week but I cannot find any leaks anywhere, anyone any ideas on what I an doing wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 You are probably not doing anything wrong Syd as it seems to be quite usual for the fitting of a new high pressure boiler to an older plumbing system to cause all manner of leak issues. Drawing on the experience of family and friends we changed our minds about fitting a high pressure combi boiler early this year and decided to stick with our old oil boiler as it is working fine with no leaks. The gain in terms of fuel efficiency just did not seem worth the risk - and the cost for us - but we are all different and some might disagree. If and when we do have to change the boiler it won't be for a high pressure combi that's for sure. The most likely place for leaks is in the joints of hidden piping. Underfloor piping can also be affected by corrosion when laid bare in cement or concrete and be a real pain to locate and repair. It is possible there may have been leaks prior to the switch but being underfloor nobody knew about it and going from gravity fed from a self filling header tank to having a pressurised air vessel to control water pressure only exacerbates any existing issues as well as promote new ones. Short of taking up all the flooring and carpet to check you might be able to go round with a damp meter and check the floor - and walls and roofspace - if you know where the pipes run. What does the guy who fitted and commisioned it all have to say about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 Hi Tracker Combi was fitted by Warmfront and they state that I have "the wrong type of water" in my system if you get my drift. Every excuse under the sun rather than get involved. Been under the floorboards so often that I no longer fasten them down until I find a cure have a damp meter and checked the ceiling everywhere that the pipes run and nothing showing, run out of idea's now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Warmfront? Isn't that the government backed outfit that made headlines recently for all the wrong reasons? I am so sorry to hear of your plight - you just don't need that do you - and I'm really sorry that I can't offer you any real help as my plumbing knowledge is both ancient and basic and limited by my own experiences! Just a thought - and you may well know this - but here goes - if there are no external water leaks is there perhaps an air or water leak in the pressure vessel or it's valve? If the internal diaphragm leaks in the pressure vessel that too will cause pressure loss and it is not unknown for them to be faulty from new? We had a boiler pressure vessel failure in an older boiler our last home and as the part was no longer available we had a separate unit fitted in the pipework by a really helpful and knowledgeable local heating engineer and that cured the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Syd, try bleeding the radiators, normally after a boiler drain down then a refilling of the system , air inevitably gets into the system unless you have an automatic Air release built into the system, if you cannot find any leak's anywhere I would definatly try Bleeding All the radiators,topping up the system as you go along, then at least you know there is no Air in the system, the guy who fitted the boiler should have done that before leaving your property, hope its of some help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Our boiler is 20 years old and has never missed a beat. At the last service we asked about whether to change and was advised by the engineer to stick with what we have as it was more reliable. I agree with Tracker that looking at the costs it would take years to get the savings back, so we stick where we are. I also agree that 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. I hope Syd finds all his leaks soon as there is nothing worse, especially if you wish to go away for any length of time. Some of my neighbours have changed and one thing I do notice is that there is far more steam coming out of the exhaust vent than with the older boilers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Syd - 2011-12-17 11:42 AM Hi Tracker Combi was fitted by Warmfront and they state that I have "the wrong type of water" in my system if you get my drift. Every excuse under the sun rather than get involved. Been under the floorboards so often that I no longer fasten them down until I find a cure have a damp meter and checked the ceiling everywhere that the pipes run and nothing showing, run out of idea's now Hi Syd. I installed our entire microbore system over 20 years ago. All steel panel rads, copper pipe, with corrosion inhibitor. Before then, I had never carried out any plumbing work. We have no expansion or CW feed tank, the whole lot runs direct from mains. System pressure has been maintained at about 1 bar cold, rising to 1.5 bar at max temp. It was originally powered by a Chaffoteaux combi boiler that lasted a bit over 15 years before becoming unreliable and too expensive to maintain. That was replaced by a condensing Worcester Bosch combi boiler just over 4 years ago. Over all that time the system has maintained pressure between annual services (which I do not do), frequently not needing any top up at the service interval, so doing two or even three years with minimal pressure loss. I did needed to vent air from certain rads initially, and for a couple of years after the new boiler was installed, until all the free oxygen in the heating water was consumed. However, I have not needed to vent for the past two years. From that experience, my conclusion is that your system is, indeed, leaking. However, if it was only the boiler that was changed, especially if the original system was not pressurised, and the rest is the original pipework and rads, I'm afraid I think you are on a hiding to nothing. If Warmfront did not put in an exclusion clause saying they would not accept liability for faults found on the original system post installation, you might have a case against them, but I'd be a bit surprised if they forgot that one! The problem will be being caused by a change from non-pressurised to pressurised system, while retaining old radiators and pipework, not by the combi per se. If the system was replaced in totality with all new pipe and rads, or was renewed as Warmfront considered necessary, and they have provided a warranty on the installation and not just on their own workmanship, write them a letter expressing your dissatisfaction and why, and demanding they attend and remedy the faults within 14 days. If that doesn't work you'll need to start thinking about solicitors! However, you'll have to establish fault, meaning you need to get some kind of expert report on what is wrong. An independent consulting engineer would be best, because they don't carry out installation work, so can't be discredited on grounds of commercial interest. However, as you've now attacked the system yourself you may have undermined your case somewhat. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebishbus Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 HI Syd. It maybe worth trying adding an internal leak sealer to the system. Wickes sell one to reduce the pressure loss in sealed systems. Brian B. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teflon2 Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Syd suggest you try a container under the safety valve discharge point these valves do letby sometimes as they are a metal to metal seal. If water eventualy shows in the container you need to replace the valve as they don't reseal very well also make sure you keep your inhibitor level in balance or you will have more problems in the future. Best of luck John (!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Have installed two combi systems, both where completly new rads and all, they need 'topping up' once or maybe twice per year. My only knowledge of warmfront installers is talking to people who have employed them, and it amazes me just how much they charge, I do wonder if I get made redundant wheither to retrain and do this as I reacon even with my dodgey joints five years would see me in position to buy RB out of necker island :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Combi boilers were invented to be cheap and easy to install with little skill required. I should know because I was at the time very much behind their design and introduction. As for all their claimed advantages well I helped write the script as it were. Many people make the mistake of confusing a combi boiler with a condensing boiler and fitters seeking a quick and easy buck will always try and convince you to have one fitted. The two main problems are loss of pressure and the furring up of the heat exchanger and although this latter problem has been addressed to improve the situation it is still there to some extent. My first advice is if you have no problem with you existing boiler keep it. The savings you will make from a new more efficient boiler will probably not be enough to pay for it within the expected life of a modern boiler! Secondly if you do need to have a new boiler fitted to an existing system have a simple modern condensing boiler fitted. In fact condensing boilers be they combi or not are the only type of boilers that are allowed to be fitted nowadays. I'm retired now but when I was working even though combi boilers were to a large extent our idea we would never fit one to an old system. We always stood by our work and knew that fitting one to an old system was likely to be more trouble than it was worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Combi boilers were invented to be cheap and easy to install with little skill required. I should know because I was at the time very much behind their design and introduction. As for all their claimed advantages well I helped write the script as it were. Many people make the mistake of confusing a combi boiler with a condensing boiler and fitters seeking a quick and easy buck will always try and convince you to have one fitted. The two main problems are loss of pressure and the furring up of the heat exchanger and although this latter problem has been addressed to improve the situation it is still there to some extent. My first advice is if you have no problem with you existing boiler keep it. The savings you will make from a new more efficient boiler will probably not be enough to pay for it within the expected life of a modern boiler! Secondly if you do need to have a new boiler fitted to an existing system have a simple modern condensing boiler fitted. In fact condensing boilers be they combi or not are the only type of boilers that are allowed to be fitted nowadays. I'm retired now but when I was working even though combi boilers were to a large extent our idea we would never fit one to an old system. We always stood by our work and knew that fitting one to an old system was likely to be more trouble than it was worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChrisB Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Not an expert by any means (just an enthusiatic amateur), but here are some thoughts... We bought a house with a combi boiler a few years ago. All OK until we and replaced some old radiators then also discovered drops in pressure over a week or two. My conclusion was that the air in the new water which was introduced caused this drop in pressure - bleeding the radiators several times and topping up the pressure virtually eliminated the problems over a month or two. I did then add a corrosion inhibitor and leak sealant to the pressurised sytem (through a radiator bleed valve - quite straightformward) and for the next year or two have had no further issues. On the annual service last summer (carried out by the manufacturer - something I would recommend as they always carry spare parts) I was told that there had probably been a small leak in the automatic bleed valve in the boiler in the past as there was a residue in the tray beneath - but this was no longer leaking. The engineer said that the Sentinel leak-sealing product I had used was very good and caused no problems with the working of the boiler. He had used it to seal leaks in a number of inaccessible "weeping" joints. I would certainly add it again (along with inhibiter) if I had to drain down the system for peace of mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Syd It's worth persisting with pressure (excuse the pun) on Warmfront. Installers under the Warmfront scheme are also responsible for maintenance during the Warranty period. If it was only fitted this year your Warranty is still valid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 17, 2011 Share Posted December 17, 2011 Sorry about the double post. It's the computers fault not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 17, 2011 Author Share Posted December 17, 2011 Thank you all very much for your advice, tomorrow I will start from the beginning. I will start with the boiler it's self and then work through every joint that can be seen. After that if no weeping joints are found up will come the floorboards again Monday Inhibitor and leak sealer will go in then if I have to top up the installer WILL come out. Basically it seems to be all Colin Leake's fault then :D :D Thanks for that Colin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Syd - 2011-12-17 11:54 PM Basically it seems to be all Colin Leake's fault then :D :D Thanks for that Colin That's hardly surprising Syd when you look at Colin's name - do you suppose that when he gets a plumbing problem it becomes known as Colin's Leake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 18, 2011 Author Share Posted December 18, 2011 That's right Tracker, shall we start up a "get Colin Leake" club now, or after Christmas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Syd - 2011-12-18 1:56 PM That's right Tracker, shall we start up a "get Colin Leake" club now, or after Christmas It's either Colin or Postnote - and my money's on Postnote on present form! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 I'll set the Bear on you lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 18, 2011 Share Posted December 18, 2011 Colin Leake - 2011-12-18 4:22 PM I'll set the Bear on you lot. You should be kind to dumb animals ... leave Syd and Tracker alone. :D :D :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 19, 2011 Author Share Posted December 19, 2011 Think I have fixed the bloody thing, not saying what the problem was because it is too embarrasing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 19, 2011 Share Posted December 19, 2011 Come on, out with it. Expect you are not the first or the last and may save others from the same embarrassing slip up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 20, 2011 Author Share Posted December 20, 2011 Give me a couple of days to make sure that it is fixed---------- and time to swallow my pride :$ :$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliveH Posted December 20, 2011 Share Posted December 20, 2011 I know nothing about boilers and so when our 25 year old boiler failed ( the heat exchanger became porous and we were wasting heat and energy apparently) - the gas people quoted £5000 with a 20% discount if I signed up "today!", whereas the chap that services our boiler and had been telling us for years that when it goes it will do exactly what it did, quoted £2000. The gas people (the ones who fly about visiting little worlds on the TV adverts) said a Combi boiler was the way to go!! Our boiler guy said no - a Combi boiler in our situation would be a recipe for disaster because it would be spliced into an old system. So an ordinary boiler was fitted. Our bills are now a fraction of what they were, so much so that we have just claimed back £250 from being in credit after paying by monthly DDM. And that still leaves us about £100 in credit because after the summer we had accrued £350 credit!!! And are we having a battle with them to reduce our DDM amount! So this to me is just as big an issue - the utility companies insisting that you pay over the top each month and then not wanting to give you back your own money!! They only started talking sensibly when we insisted that we would change from monthly DDM's to quarterly DDM's where they take just the amount owed if they did not give us our money back. Prior to that they actually said that they would put us on a higher tariff if we did not pay by DDM!!. But you can circumvent this scam by saying you will pay by DDM but quarterly and only for the amount owed. That way you can still put by the same monthly amount but in your bank account NOT theirs. That confused the hell out of them. I am still unhappy with the situation and will be keeping a close eye on it. Anyone else suffered similar? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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