hotwheels Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 after reading your threads on batteries, i thought i knew what i wanted. my battery area is under the seats, so an inexpensive lead-acid with gassing was out. an expensive gel was also out so agm was the winner, now i read about calcium and carbon fibre??? are they are just alternate names for lead-acid ?? are they something different?? do they come under gel or lead-acid banner (the 2 options on most electric blocks, i believe). am i getting myself overly confused?? *-) :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I'm sure you'll get lots of techie responses and some stringly held opnions about battery types and brands - but keeping it simple I'd say your original decision is a good one and based on a sound practical approach. Calcium is a plate modifier and can be used a number of different battery types, Carbon Fibre is a competitor to AGM and in the UK normally comes from a single manufacturer. Over the years I've had all the types you mention and would buy AGM next time - mostly for the same reasons as you but also because I believe AGM are more tolerant of motohome lifestyles than GEL. The charger setting if present should be the one recommended by the battery manufacturer - they can differ in their opnions but they're the ones who have to meet any warranty claims. Hope this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Why rule out an inexpensive lead acid battery? It's under a seat base which is ventilated and if you still have worries many batteries are either sealed or come with a plastic vent tube which can be routed through the floor. In any case the charging regimes of most leisure batteries are such that a sifficiently high charge voltage from either engine of charger to cause gassing never occurs - which is one reason why leisure batteries are so hard to keep fully charged and why they sometimes don't last very long. That's my view based on practical experience rather than theoretical knowledge - others may well disagree - but do bear in mind that often when you buy a cheap battery that is what you get - a cheap battery unable to withstand the strain for much longer than it's usually short guarantee period! For many years all I ever used as a leisure battery was a cheap secondhand van or truck battery from a breakers yard and none of my vans ever exploded so don't let paranoia rule your life! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Whatever the theoretical merits of different battery types may be, I'm pretty confident in saying that in normal commercial practice AGMs will be built to a better standard than 'flooded' and better able to withstand the rigors of deeper discharge thus yielding a longer and more cost effective life. Not everyone heavily discharges batteries of course, in fact some motorcaravanners seem almost paranoid about using them at all. I wouldn't be able to say "none of my vans ever exploded so don't let paranoia rule" because that could be taken as semi-expert advice and I could be sued! A bit of a risky statement though really, 'one swallow ...' and all that. The advice if using FLAs, even those described as sealed (usually sealed in a maintenance sense only), must be to ensure proper venting when used in a motorhome. There are all sorts of techie 'ifs buts and maybes' here but the question was couched in simple terms so I'm sticking to uncomplicated answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I BELIEVE (but I'm very definitely open to persuasion about this) that, if a battery-charger's charging regimen can be switched between gel or lead-acid, then only 'genuine' gel batteries should be charged using the gel regimen. AGM, calcium, carbon-fibre (whatever) would all be treated as 'lead acid' when it comes to charging. "Gel" means just that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corky 8 Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Lots of Information here if you care to read it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotwheels Posted December 21, 2011 Author Share Posted December 21, 2011 lots of valid points to ponder!!! tracker, i m loathe to drill as the battery is in a double based area and i dont know what wiring may be lurking underneath (and im scared to make any holes anywhere for anything (lol) , also i was never bothered about venting in my army service, but paranoia is definately now in my makeup 8-) and failure is not such an issue at lead-acidd prices. derek, ive always respected your well considered views on this forum, but someone did say agm is a gel setting, so now im unsure *-) neill, youve obviously tried many battery types, so youve reinforced my preference for agm. corky, thanks, i will visit that site (i love wikipedia). im sure there'll be more postings so i'll watch and learn (^) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I wrote a reply and then had to go out before I finished it, so here it is below..out of sync with other posts. .... Tracker has summed up pretty well. Whilst a good flooded leisure battery will not release gas when new, or at least extremely little, you do have to consider what happens when it ages or is your charger developes a fault and under high discarge conditions such as when you use an invertor. Even AGM and Gel can release explosive gasses as they age hence why they should only be fitted in a ventilated area. Cheapest option is Flooded, and fit a vent tube, and please no commnets like I do not want to drill a hole in my nice van like many say. Look at it as an enhancement if you by chanve have this view. ( now read yiou are nervous or drilling a cable or whatever - fair comment but maybe an existing grommet you can use . e,g share with hand brake cable) As far as carbon fibre batteries are concerned, foget it, its all a marketing gimick and con. Some manufactures use carbon fibre in the paste anyway as it then disolves in use to leave a nice porous structure for the acit to get right into the plates. One company claims wild and wonderful benefits but you only have to read the patents they have for this technology to realise it does not hold water and if you start with a run of the mill battery then you end up with a run of the mill battery so do not pay a premium for so called zero sulphation, can be left flat, flies at supersonic speed and prevents you getting pregant if the battery is yellow coloured. All marketing hype, and teh battery I am thinking off with carbon fibre will consume more water and need more frequent topping up. Premium quality calcium batteries use very little water and need very little topping up of the acid. If you really cannot get access ( by sliding the seat forward as you have a swivel plate) then go for a really good flooded or even consider and AGM which is worth considering anyway but a cheap one will not necessarily be better than a premium flooded just fitted and left alone until it fails. Choice comes down to how you use the batteries. If it just as a buffer for odd coffee stops until youi reach camp and hook up - cheap will do , or typically say a 30% to 50% discharge frequently then a premium flooded. If you often flatten totally and cycle a lot ( e.g wild camping) then an AGM is probbaly better as can cope better with deep discharges. ( A good flooded wil cope with very occassionaly with very deep discharges but only if charged soon afterwards ( next day). AGM and gel wil survive discharged state longer, say a few days for AGM and up to a week for Gel.Because AGM and Gel can be deeper discharged they in effect give a higher useable capacity. Comfused? Probably! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Derek, generally AGM should be treated as Gel as have very similar characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Published charging recommendations for AGM can be quite confusing to non-techies. Advice from normally reliable sources can vary quite a bit and not all recommend AGM=GEL e.g. Optima "If you use the gel setting to charge an AGM battery it won't fully charge and, over time, it will actually damage your AGM battery". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 I said generally - you have to check specific spec for each type. Optima are spirally wound batteries and have quite unique properties. Many agm batteries can use flooded settings, but this is because they add silver or some other material to raise the charge voltages so gassing does not occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neillking Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Yes absolutely but confusing for many, I think the advice to check for specific recommendations for your own battery is the key one here. I'm a big fan of AGM myself and see them as having advantages over both flooded and gel - for my/our camping lifestyle at least. I've had nothing but trouble from gel and rather mixed results with flooded. I've certainly had mixed advice about suitable agm charging regimes but apart from a lack of full charge on the gel setting, the actual agm battery life seems to have been about the same on both gel and wet settings. This isn't a scientific test of course just personal experience complete with several variables. If I were buying today though I'd buy agm and run them with my elektroblok set to wet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest peter Posted December 21, 2011 Share Posted December 21, 2011 Derek Uzzell - 2011-12-21 12:12 PM I BELIEVE (but I'm very definitely open to persuasion about this) that, if a battery-charger's charging regimen can be switched between gel or lead-acid, then only 'genuine' gel batteries should be charged using the gel regimen. AGM, calcium, carbon-fibre (whatever) would all be treated as 'lead acid' when it comes to charging. "Gel" means just that.As Brambles say's, he's the expert on here regarding batteries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 As there was a reasonable likelihood that, if the gel leisure-battery on my Hobby needed replacement, I'd opt for an AGM type, I had done a fair bit of research regarding whether I should then leave my motorhome's battery-charger on its current 'gel' setting or switch it to its 'wet' alternative. If I bought an AGM battery and the battery's manufacturer specified that it should be charged using a regimen appropriate for a gel battery, then I'd leave the charger's setting unchanged. Conversely, if the AGM battery's manufacturer specified a 'wet' charging regimen, then I'd alter the charger's setting appropriately. But, if there were no specific manufacturer guidance (and it proved impossible to obtain any), on-line received wisdom seems to be that an AGM battery should be treated as a 'wet' battery when it comes to charging, rather than as a gel battery. On that basis, I'd lean towards neilking's choice of matching an AGM battery to a 'wet' charger setting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hotwheels Posted December 22, 2011 Author Share Posted December 22, 2011 lots of information, both from experts and from peoples personal experience. both very valid. its now for me to weigh up the pro's and cons, check my pocket, and make a choice :-S many thanks to all, your time, thoughts and opinions are all very much appreciated. (^) merry christmas to all (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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