Guest Tracker Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 If you took all the ships and boats out of the world's seas, rivers and lakes would the sea level fall? Does mains tap water in a pipe under pressure expand more, less, or the same as unpressurised water when it freezes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 I was just about to answer but my fish and chips are ready :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mrs Batty Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-22 12:37 PM If you took all the ships and boats out of the world's seas, rivers and lakes would the sea level fall? Does mains tap water in a pipe under pressure expand more, less, or the same as unpressurised water when it freezes? Dear Mr Tracker items placed in water displace the same volume os theyselves thus the below the water line volume of any boat does displace that volume of water. This has to 'expand' into the available space which is the sea and does add marginally to the rise in sea level. Water expands by 10% of its original volume when frozen which can result in rocks spliting / exploding in frozen conditions. The pressure the water is in when in liquid state does not effect the expansion when frozen or in its solid state. Hope this is helpful - we find your post both funny, informative and entertaining. However we think you have now become completley stir crazy and had a moment of total insanity !! PLEASE contact us as we are feeling exactly the same and minds have gone totally empty. We seem to have loads in common - with worrying about these vastly important matters rather than people posting about what fold down bucket to buy lol Keep up the good work !! Hope santa brings you a boat and a frozen pipe xxx :-> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-22 12:37 PM If you took all the ships and boats out of the world's seas, rivers and lakes would the sea level fall? No. because they would be in the harbours and water would be displaced out of the harbours into the sea to replace the volume of the ships hulls. Does mains tap water in a pipe under pressure expand more, less, or the same as unpressurised water when it freezes? The pipe is under pressure not the water according to your question. So it is the same whether the pipe is under pressure or not as the inside pressure of the pipe carrying the water remains the same. Edit - darn - just read the question again..missed you quaifying it with unpressurised water!!!!!! Next trick questions please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChrisB Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-22 12:37 PM If you took all the ships and boats out of the world's seas, rivers and lakes would the sea level fall? Does mains tap water in a pipe under pressure expand more, less, or the same as unpressurised water when it freezes? (1) Yes if they were removed from the water and put onto dry land (but whether the decrease in level could be measured is another matter). (2) The pressure exerted by freezing water is so high that any pressure the water could exert initially would be insignificant. But water freezes at a lower temperature when submitted to pressure. Corollary... If all the icebergs floating in the Atlantic were to melt would there be an increase in sea level? (or if all the ice in my gin and tonic melted would the level of liquid rise in my glass?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 ChrisB - 2011-12-22 4:09 PM If all the icebergs floating in the Atlantic were to melt would there be an increase in sea level? (or if all the ice in my gin and tonic melted would the level of liquid rise in my glass?) Yes - but nothing like as much as all the ice in Antarctica melting which would probably make your wine glass overflow a little! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 ChrisB - 2011-12-22 4:09 PM (1) Yes if they were removed from the water and put onto dry land (but whether the decrease in level could be measured is another matter). (2) The pressure exerted by freezing water is so high that any pressure the water could exert initially would be insignificant. But water freezes at a lower temperature when submitted to pressure. If you took all the boats out of the water where else might you put them if not on dry land Chris? Unless they became flying boats? Does anyone know what the pressure exerted by ice freezing is and whether it varies depending on how quickly it freezes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Ice floating on water?. When it melts the water level does not rise. If you argue ice taes up a larger volume than water , the teh water level wil fall. The ice wil diplace the same mass of water as teh ice itself ( as it is floating). Therfire when it metls teh mass of ice replaces the displaced water, less the expansion the ice which was under water. So the level in your gin glass falls slightly as the ice melts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 The pressure exterted by ice freezing is dependant on the rate it freezes. Ice is actually still a liquid of sorts, like glass, and actually flows. So overtime all you have is the mass of the ice exerting pressure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 When all of you eggheads on here have finished answering all of Trackers very searching and difficult, scientificly based questions I have another one for you If you were undergoing a tax investigation on your works premises would you be within your rights to refuse the tax inspector the use of your toilet facilities if they were caught short ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Syd - 2011-12-22 4:47 PM If you were undergoing a tax investigation on your works premises would you be within your rights to refuse the tax inspector the use of your toilet facilities if they were caught short ? Depends on the how confident you are about getting away with it - sorry I mean being proven innocent of tax evasion - which would affect your confidence in really p#####g them off!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Syd - 2011-12-22 4:47 PM When all of you eggheads on here have finished answering all of Trackers very searching and difficult, scientificly based questions I have another one for you If you were undergoing a tax investigation on your works premises would you be within your rights to refuse the tax inspector the use of your toilet facilities if they were caught short ? .......oh, I'm sure you would be within your rights. ......I'm also just as sure it would probably be a BIG (and costly) mistake. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Brambles - 2011-12-22 4:42 PM Ice floating on water?. When it melts the water level does not rise. If you argue ice taes up a larger volume than water , the teh water level wil fall. The ice wil diplace the same mass of water as teh ice itself ( as it is floating). Therfire when it metls teh mass of ice replaces the displaced water, less the expansion the ice which was under water. So the level in your gin glass falls slightly as the ice melts. I don't know what you put in your water today Jon? Physics was never my strong subject, come to think of it I didn't have a strong subject, but ice is expanded water so when it thaws it reverts to the same volume of water that it was before it froze and on that basis would not the level remain the same? It's the thawing of all the ice on dry land that would overflow your glass and dilute the G&T too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob b Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Its all to do with Archimedes principle of relativity......innit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-22 12:37 PM.................Does mains tap water in a pipe under pressure expand more, less, or the same as unpressurised water when it freezes? First water cannot be compressed, so its volume will remain constant whether under pressure or not. However, as above, when it freezes it increases in volume by approximately 10%, so it will be liable to split the pipe, whether under pressure or not. But, when it thaws and reverts to its liquid state, you will find a sudden and devastating increase in the apparent volume of the water in the pipe subject to pressure, as it will now squirt violently out of the cracks in the pipe. This increase in volume is, of course, an illusion, as in reality more water keeps entering the pipe to replace the volume that is being lost, in proportion to the pressure being exerted on the water. I wonder if this may be causing your confusion? If it is, may I suggest your best course of action will be to stop pondering on the cause, turn off the water, and fix the bleedin' pipe! :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 If melting ice is going to cause the sea levels to rise I have the solution. All we need to do is park a few ships up near the poles:;. Freeze the sea water back into ice and dump it back on the poles where it should remain frozen:;. To think my teachers thought I was simple when all the while I was a genius:;! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 You can always rely on BK to lower the tone of perfectly looney thread by being sorta serious! Who said the pipe had frozed anyway?? Two and two still making five eh Brian - must be the funny air in Sussex - you are very lucky that I moved away in 1964!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Brambles - 2011-12-22 4:42 PM .... So the level in your gin glass falls slightly as the ice melts. Wrong, the level in the glass falls much more significantly as there's no way it would last long enough to allow the ice to melt in the first place!!!!! (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel B Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Syd - 2011-12-22 4:47 PM If you were undergoing a tax investigation on your works premises would you be within your rights to refuse the tax inspector the use of your toilet facilities if they were caught short ? ... depends if that's where you've stored all your 'alternative' tax paperwork ....8-) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/permot3.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Syd - 2011-12-22 4:47 PM If you were undergoing a tax investigation on your works premises would you be within your rights to refuse the tax inspector the use of your toilet facilities if they were caught short ? Let them use your facilities, and if they give you a tax bill, invoice them the same amount for use of your facilities :D..........................and if they refuse to pay it just put it through your accounts as a bad debt (lol) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted December 22, 2011 Share Posted December 22, 2011 Tracker - 2011-12-22 7:14 PM You can always rely on BK to lower the tone of perfectly looney thread by being sorta serious! Who said the pipe had frozed anyway?? Two and two still making five eh Brian - must be the funny air in Sussex - you are very lucky that I moved away in 1964!? Neither of us. We were both speaking about the water. However, as water is liquid, and a liquid pipe would be about as much use as a chocolate teapot, I assume the pipe must be solid, and therefore made of frozen copper, or similar? So, frozen copper, frozen water, who cares? (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Brian Kirby - 2011-12-22 10:40 PM Neither of us. We were both speaking about the water. However, as water is liquid, and a liquid pipe would be about as much use as a chocolate teapot, I assume the pipe must be solid, and therefore made of frozen copper, or similar? So, frozen copper, frozen water, who cares? (lol) Thanks for that Brian - I can see that I will have to choose my words more carefully! Is the frozen water, aka ice, harder inside a copper pipe that takes a lot of pressure to split it or harder in a plastic pipe which can expand to take up most of the 10% expansion? If a sealed container is too strong to burst when water freezes does the increased pressure caused by it's attempts to freeze prevent it from freezing or does it freeze without increasing in volume? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Tracker. If you apply enough pressure to ice then it reverts back to water, as will applying enough pressure prevent water from turning to ice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted December 23, 2011 Share Posted December 23, 2011 Another one to confuse your brain cells Tracker. Actually the answer is really only ordinary hexagonal ice is less dense than the liquid phase of water. Under increasing pressure, ice undergoes a number of transitions to other allotropic forms with higher density than liquid water, such as high density amorphous ice (HDA) and very high density amorphous ice (VHDA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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