More about gas

[toptruck]

Hi quite new to this but have been reading with interest about gas bottles &spain.

So i would like a little advice, just got the motorhome no gas bottles yet, its an07 autotrail and we intend to go to Itally &Spain this year ?is logas a good option to take for all areas home & away. the bottles seem expensive to initially purchase.

many thanks for any help. John

[Guest Tracker]

A lot depends on where you will be when you need to buy gas and the maximum bottle sizes that your van will accept. Some foreign and refillables are slightly different in shape and size and your locker size may dictate how flexible you can be.

 

You could opt for one Calor to use as back up and one Gaslow, or alternative make, refillable together with the adaptors needed to refill in the countries you will need gas in and that will cover most circumstances.

 

Personally as we have diesel heating and one 6kg Calor will last us three weeks just cooking and fridge (don't use sites or ehu!), two Calor and a small Gaz backup just in case is all we will ever need as we don't go for much more than six weeks at a time so rather than faff about looking for a refill point we leave home all gassed up! One thing less to think about but I do have the luxury of always being able to leave home with two full bottles!

 

Over the years I have amassed a number of Calor and Gaz bottles and already having several spares did influence my choice but if I were starting from new with no gas bottles one Calor and one Gaslow is the route I would probably take.

 

We are all different I and doubt my solution will appeal to everyone and if you do go for longer periods than the maximum gas capacity of your van will last you will need to review the whole issue.

 

 

[neillking]

My vote would be for Gaslow refillable/s without the Calor (a pain in the bum wherever you are!). A fixed underslung tank would come second, maybe even first if there's an obvious place to install one of suitable size and make good use of the now empty gas cupboard.

 

You wouldn't think it reasonable to have to dismantle your car to exchange fuel tanks so why do so with gas? Especially now that refillable/s are so easily installed. Been using refillables myself in UK and widely Europe for ~10 years and would never go back to the old exchange bottle system now.

 

If there was ever an 'emergency' in remotest Scandinavia you can always connect any old bottle into a modern (post 2004) system via a pigtail to the regulator.

 

Simples!

 

[starvin marvin]

I agree with Tracker, get one refillable and one exchange bottle. This way you can use Calor in the UK, Elf in France, and Repsol in Spain and Portugal for the exchange bottle. Gives you the best of both worlds in flexibility.

 

For example on my next trip away to Portugal, I will set off with a full refillable and my Repsol cylinder which may be only half full. Drive through France using the refillable. Before entering Spain I fill the refillable and switch to Spanish gas, when the Repsol is empty I switch back to the refillable until I can exchange the Repsol and switch back again. When the Refillable is say half empty if the chance comes along and I can refill I do so and carry on like this for the rest of the trip. Some people will find this a phaff but we never have to worry about gas. Simples.

[Manu]

Two 13kg Calor Propanes, one adapter off Ebay....fill up anywhere there is LPG, or GPL !

Ezzee pezzee, lots more garages now than ever before.

[neillking]

There are now garages that will officially refill loose bottles but certainly not all. This seems to be part of a deal Gaslow have done in introducing their new direct fill kits. We link to the list from our Gaslow refillables web page. This doesn't apply to Europe of course and even Gaslow say "in addition to these locations, we cannot currently guarantee that all LPG (Autogas) forecourt garages will fill your cylinders unless fitted permanently in your caravan/motorhome together with the remote Gaslow Filler Kit". Whether the stations signing up to this will limit activities to pukka refillables with their separate 80% shut-off inlets or will tolerate calor bottles with illicit adapters remains to be seen.

 

Not sure I understand why anyone would want a half & half refillables/calor system. If going refillable the whole point is to have a much easier way of managing gas and abandoning the need to lift & lug & spanner a bottle ever again ... so why add a bottle that takes you back into all that? Is it just to thrash yourself with birch twigs, would you really miss the pain, or is it just a fear of the new and unfamiliar?

 

 

[fairweather camper]

In my case it is simply the cost .One refillable bottle is expensive, Two out of the question. Simples :-D *-)

[neillking]

Why two? Isn't that still old thinking about gas? A single refillable, especially the 11Kg is perfectly adequate for most.

 

Other threads are suggesting that a 8Kg payload hit is too much to bear for changing to a different satellite dish but here we're talking more than 25Kgs of kit that's probably redundant and has to be lugged in and out.

 

I even know of customers who've installed twin refillables and then gone on to remove and sell the No2 plus change-over, etc as essentially unused and so unnecessary. Also we get regular requests for blanking plugs from folk who've bought No2s on eBay so I'd say this isn't particularly uncommon.

 

The idea that we must have two bottles seems deeply engraved in our camping psyche but I'm challenging that idea in saying it is 'old thinking' and can be made redundant.

 

[Guest Tracker]

neillking - 2012-01-05 3:38 PM

The idea that we must have two bottles seems deeply engraved in our camping psyche but I'm challenging that idea in saying it is 'old thinking' and can be made redundant.

 

If you mean that two refillables are needed then you may have a point but for those of us on exchange bottles two are essential and for those on one refillable I would still suggest carrying a spare exchange bottle, albeit maybe not a 13 kg one but a certainly at least small one according to space, preference, how reliant you are on the certainty of a cup of tea, and where you are likely to be when it all runs out.

[bolero boy]

fairweather camper - 2012-01-05 3:26 PM

 

In my case it is simply the cost .One refillable bottle is expensive, Two out of the question. Simples :-D *-)

Yes, this is certainly a consideration. This will also reduce your carrying capacity as will locker size.

The other main one is that LPG is not as readily available in some countries as others (Spain for example).

Hence a sensible choice to have the wherewithal to employ the very cheap Repsol bottles.

With 2X13kg refillables I would chance it but only have room for 1 or 2x6kg.

[neillking]

Ah but (unexpectedly) 'running out' is also old thinking. Modern refillables have built in float gauges so there's no more likelihood of running out of gas than of diesel. Even in Spain where there's a reputation for little LPG it isn't particularly difficult to find, it's just that you are unlikely to 'come across it' in your travels. This is in part due to fewer stations but mostly because they tend to be in industrial/commercial locations rather than on forecourt. It is important therefore to take a list of these stations with you and again we link to this on our refillables web page. None of this is theory by the way, I'm a long-term refillable user who hasn't touched a bottle (LPG!) in years.

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I've followed many re-fillable pro / cons discussions, but could you tell me if you have a fixed filling point, or do you open a locker door, or even take out the bottles. I have read on numerous occasions of people either being prevented from re-filling on forecourts, or having to pretend their vehicle is propane powered, hence the fixed filling point. I would love to go down the re-fillable route, but there seems to be so many variables depending on what you read, it's all a bit confusing. At the moment I carry 4 x 6 Kg calor propanes for when we go to France, but is is a bit of a pain not having the freedom to blast some heat out with gay abandon when it gets chilly.

[bolero boy]

neillking - 2012-01-05 4:04 PM

 

Ah but (unexpectedly) 'running out' is also old thinking. Modern refillables have built in float gauges so there's no more likelihood of running out of gas than of diesel. Even in Spain where there's a reputation for little LPG it isn't particularly difficult to find, it's just that you are unlikely to 'come across it' in your travels. This is in part due to fewer stations but mostly because they tend to be in industrial/commercial locations rather than on forecourt. It is important therefore to take a list of these stations with you and again we link to this on our refillables web page. None of this is theory by the way, I'm a long-term refillable user who hasn't touched a bottle (LPG!) in years.

.......or you just swap the Repsol canister at any corner filling station.

I'm trying to get a POI file for refilling points in spain, far better than a list of addresses.

[neillking]

The only universally guaranteed arrangement is to have a fixed external point and secured bottles. Mounting the filler in-cupboard on a bracket will do in some/many places but not others. Some again will allow refills of loose bottles but many, possibly most, don't. Confusion seems to arise when trying to achieve the cheaper/easier fudges while still wanting all the benefits of the proper job! An external filler isn't really a big deal and even if not wanting to do it yourself a workshop will do that bit (only?) for you. (70mm hole plus Sikaflex, we even lend our diy customers a 70mm hole saw). If the cupboard is bigger than the door there's usually a suitable spot above the door. Twin 6s are probably ample for most but you can install them in pairs to make 4 if you want the capacity and can afford them. A pair of 6s acting as one 12Kg is also possible. As long as your supplier knows what they're doing and supplies the right bits it all goes together like Meccano.

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I have a PVC, so will have to look carefully to see if a fixed point could be done, as I think the door height is the cupboard height, or not far off it, thanks.

 

P.S perhaps you could PM me your details if you can carry out this work ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

toptruck - 2012-01-05 12:12 PM

 

Hi quite new to this but have been reading with interest about gas bottles &spain.

So i would like a little advice, just got the motorhome no gas bottles yet, its an07 autotrail and we intend to go to Itally &Spain this year ?is logas a good option to take for all areas home & away. the bottles seem expensive to initially purchase.

many thanks for any help. John

Just to get back to one bit of the OPs question, I think he is referring to Flogas. Not sure about the whole of the UK, but local availability seems fine. So yes, you could use Flogas in UK.

 

However, from you question, it seems you may not yet have encountered the wonderful world of European gas cylinder supplies! :-)

 

Simply stated, cylinders cannot be exchanged over borders, and the cylinder connections vary from country to country. With exchange cylinders (except Camping Gaz) all you own is the gas, the cylinder remains the property of the supplier and the contractual arrangement is that you rent the cylinder. The contract will forbid re-filling the cylinder other than by exchange for a full one from the same supplier. So, Flogas is a UK company, and you can only exchange a Flogas cylinder for another Flogas cylinder within the UK. Ditto Calor etc.

 

That is why you are being advised to go for re-fillable cylinders by Gaslow or similar. These cylinders look much like the exchange type, but are permanently installed in your gas locker with a flexible extension to a fill point installed through the side wall of your 'van, more often actually through the skirt. This allows filling with autogas at filling stations, that is considerably cheaper, litre for litre, than exchange cylinders. The downside is that the refillable cylinder installation is much more expensive than exchange cylinders so, to break even, you need to use a lot of gas. It is possible to move the cylinders from van to van but, unless the fill point is installed just inside the gas locker, there is that hole to consider when you come to sell. The downside to the fill point inside the gas locker is that it can look as though you are filling rented exchange cylinders, and this practice is banned by a number of filling station operators, and in several countries. The upside to the re-fillable cylinders, apart from the cheaper gas, is that you can top them up at any time and that you don't need to hump them in or out of the van whenever you run out of gas. A full 13kg steel gas cylinder weighs about 26kg, or 50lb in old money! :-)

 

What will work best for you will depend on how you use your van, where, and how large a gas cylinder your gas locker can accommodate. Much depends on the extent to which you will rely on electrical hook-up (EHU) for touring. If you are likely to go to campsites and pay for EHU, and use site facilities, you will use little gas.

 

If you envisage using mainly unserviced stop-overs you will need gas for water heating, to heat a kettle, and to run your fridge, so will use more gas.

 

If you do not envisage winter travel, and will generally stay in southern Europe, you should only need space heating on relatively few days, so still not much gas.

 

However, at the other end of the scale, if you envisage winter sporting in the Alps you will use large quantities of gas, and the sheer faff (and cost) of travelling off-site to exchange cylinders will soon make re-fillables seem indispensable.

 

Quite a lot of UK made vans have gas lockers that will only take 2 x 7kg cylinders. Most European made vans have lockers that take 2 x 13kg cylinders. Some vans can do 1 x 7kg + 1 x 13kg. If you don't want to shell out on re-fillables, the best work-around seems to me to be to take a UK cylinder that can be exchanged at home, and to buy a cylinder in France, where they are sold at pretty much all supermarkets, as being the country you will probably pass through on any trip. Your biggest problem will be if your gas locker takes only two x 7kg sized cylinders. Here, what is available outside the UK is pretty much 6kg cylinders, so lower capacity again. If that is where you are, I think once outside France, you'll find sourcing gas becomes a worry, and paying for the small size re-fillables is pretty well a necessity. If the locker will take a 13kg, I'd be inclined to buy a 13kg Butagaz propane cylinder in France and keep the 7kg as UK sourced. If 2 x 13kg is possible then one of each, UK and French.

 

If it helps to illustrate consumption, that is what we do. We travel spring or autumn, not winter, and avoiding the main summer holiday period. We have tended to tour Europe, generally staying south of Calais! We have 2 x 13kg cylinders, one Calor, one Butagaz, on a automatic change-over valve. We use camp sites, and their facilities, to the maximum, so very rarely run the water heater. The space heating is use for a few evenings only, in early spring or late autumn. We travel for 8 - 10 weeks at a time, and find that 1 x 13kg cylinder, used in this way, lasts for about 12 weeks, so a bit over one trip's duration. Empty Calors are exchanged while at home, empty Butagaz at the first available supermarket when in France.

[neillking]

Send me some photos, be pleased to make suggestions based on experience elsewhere. Best usually to start by looking inside the cupboard for likely spots and see where they would emerge. There are lots of possibilities, above and to side of door, through the door itself is a maybe, outside the cupboard in a stiff/ened skirt is popular (reseal around the SS hose as it leaves the cupboard), we've even seen fillers in the back panel near the lights on some. We don't offer a fitting service - sorry.

 

[neillking]

Brian Kirby - 2012-01-05 4:51 PM ... unless the fill point is installed just inside the gas locker, there is that hole to consider when you come to sell

 

Not quite. There is a transfer kit for changing vans that neatly seals off the hole with a dummy filler head.

 

I'd take a different view of cost even in these difficult times. Refillables aren't about payback they're about lifestyle. If it was all about cost I'd be caravanning or tenting - but I'm not!

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Many thanks, oh and Brian the OP is going to Italy and Spain

[starvin marvin]

neillking - 2012-01-05 3:38 PM

 

Why two? Isn't that still old thinking about gas? A single refillable, especially the 11Kg is perfectly adequate for most.

 

Other threads are suggesting that a 8Kg payload hit is too much to bear for changing to a different satellite dish but here we're talking more than 25Kgs of kit that's probably redundant and has to be lugged in and out.

 

I even know of customers who've installed twin refillables and then gone on to remove and sell the No2 plus change-over, etc as essentially unused and so unnecessary. Also we get regular requests for blanking plugs from folk who've bought No2s on eBay so I'd say this isn't particularly uncommon.

 

The idea that we must have two bottles seems deeply engraved in our camping psyche but I'm challenging that idea in saying it is 'old thinking' and can be made redundant.

 

CORRECTION:-

 

You are referring to me when you say that "....a 8kg payload hit is too much to bear for changing to a different satellite dish...." This is a completely WRONG interpretation of what I said in the thread I posted and I take exception to this.

 

If you wish to quote me please read carefully what was written, rather than a personally skewed version to suit the particular argument you are currently putting forward. As is often quoted there are no right and wrong ways, simply different solutions.

 

If you are a retailer, (as I was once) remember the customer is always right, give the customer what they want and keep what you think to yourself. Offer suggestions but never challenge them. End of.

[neillking]

I was simply making the point that the 25kg payload issue was fairly significant and some might say very significant. I'm sorry if you're offended by that, no offence intended.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

neillking - 2012-01-05 5:40 PM

 

I was simply making the point that the 25kg payload issue was fairly significant and some might say very significant. I'm sorry if you're offended by that, no offence intended.

 

I've got a 60Kg payload issue,how can I leave her at home though............... :D

[neillking]

Oooo! I don't know I'd dare say that!!

 

Just as an aside, the 'no-exchange' side of Gaslow can open up new possibilities, an IH owner once emailed me to say "I have devised a method of fitting one 11kg cylinder. This involves some surgery (joinery) to the rear fixed bed to introduce the cylinder from the inside and then reseal the compartment".

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

My mind is racing,I had not thought of that and I will venture out to the van and take a look at the feasibility , many thanks

 

I do hope the OP is getting some idea's from this as well.

[Guest Tracker]

neillking - 2012-01-05 5:40 PM

I was simply making the point that the 25kg payload issue was fairly significant and some might say very significant. I'm sorry if you're offended by that, no offence intended.

 

May I correct that statement?

 

For some people a 25kg payload loss or gain could be significant or even very significant depending on their van and it's total available space and payload.

 

For others it is insignificant when compared to their payload and space and the benefit and convenience of never running out of gas whilst away from home in foreign lands.

 

Each will find their own solution and the purpose of this forum is to put forward ideas and alternatives that may not have occured to the OP and not to entice others into following your own individual route or thinking.