Tougher Road Traffic Laws In France.

[coach2000]

I copied this info that has appeared on a couple of other forums I read. It's interesting reading

 

New measures and tougher penalties come into force this week

 

A decree containing a number of miscellaneous provisions affecting French road traffic law will be published this week bringing into force a series of tougher measures applying to drivers on French roads.

 

• End of the road for radar warning devices

Equipment which detects a radar signal has always been banned in France but the new laws take matters a step further by banning ‘driver aids’ which incorporate data giving a warning of where speed cameras are located. Arguably, this information is already in the public domain with Michelin maps, for example, posting details of fixed radar positions but in the face of opposition both from motorists’ organisations and satnav manufacturers, the French government has decided to press ahead with this measure.

 

Already, some manufacturers of satnav equipment have taken the lead by stopping the inclusion of data on speed traps in new equipment but, for users of existing equipment, compliance with the new law will depend on whether they bother to connect up with a manufacturer’s website for a software update to remove what will become the prohibited software. For the police, enforcing the new law will not be an easy task particularly as many vehicles now come with embedded software systems which the non-technologically inclined driver may find difficult to disengage.

 

Nonetheless, the penalty for the new offence is steep – a fine of up to 1500 € and the loss of up to 6 points on a driver’s licence.

 

• Using a telephone while driving – fine increased

Up till now, the fine for using a mobile whilst driving in France had been set at what had almost become a nominal 35 € and loss of 2 points on a French licence. From this week, the penalty for using a mobile phone whilst driving in France will go up to 135 € with the loss of 3 points.

 

• Watch a movie while driving

There have been sporadic reports from police in the South of France that lorry drivers, particularly foreign ones, watching movies whilst driving had become a particular concern. Drivers caught watching a movie whilst at the wheel will now face a fine of 1500 €, instead of the present tariff of 135 €. In addition, either 2 or 3 points will be deducted from a driver’s licence and any audio-visual equipment used will be confiscated.

 

• Straying on to the hard shoulder on autoroutes

The principal cause of drivers straying on to the hard shoulder is driver fatigue and up till now, straying temporarily into the emergency lane on autoroutes in France was not an offence. Under pressure from autoroute companies anxious for the safety of their workforces, the French government has introduced a new offence, effectively of clipping the hard shoulder, for which the penalty will be 135 €. Also, the existing fine for driving on the hard shoulder on French autoroutes increases from 35 € to 135 €.

 

• New laws for motorcyclists on French roads

The decree also covers the requirement for motorcyclists riding a motor-bike with an engine capacity exceeding 125 c.c. to wear a reflective garment. The French Department of Transport has still to define the criteria for reflective garments and the measure compelling motor-cyclists on French roads to wear something hi-viz will not come into effect before 1st January 2013. In the case of non-compliance, the offender would be liable to a fine of 68 € with a 2 point licence deduction.

 

There is also an alteration to the law concerning non-conforming number plates which applies to all road-users but especially bikers. The penalty for driving with a non-conforming plate increases from 68 € to 135 €. The Ministry of Transport will also introduce a new regulation concerning the size of registration plates carried by motor-bikes with the aim of making motor bikes more identifiable, especially if flashed by a speed camera.

 

• Alcolock

Local authorities have already begun to introduce on-board driver’s breath testing equipment on French school buses and as we reported earlier on 1st December 2011 ‘France heads towards mandatory in-car breathalysers’, such equipment will become mandatory in all vehicles.

 

• Magistrates to have direct access to French National Drivers’ Database

This procedural measure should allow magistrates to better dispose of road traffic cases coming before them. Up till now, a magistrate had to make individual application for a driver’s previous convictions and points deducted history. Sometimes, if the necessary information was not forthcoming timeously, the offender could face a lesser penalty than would otherwise have been the case. Under the new procedure, magistrates should, in theory, have a driver’s history and previous convictions ‘at their fingertips’.

 

The one that I agree with is the one of watching a movie whilst driving. I have seen many eatern european lorry drivers doing this at nighttime on their laptops.

 

Clive.

[Keith T]

There is a very brief note on teh caravn CLub Website news page simply to say that Speed Camera warnings on Satnav are outlawed..I imagine they will have mroe to say about this probablyin teh next CC magazine.

Question - if -as we do - already have the fixed camera locations shown on the Tom tom satnav, and this is updated on a regular basis, how do you disable it.....or is it likely that the next update will automatically remove it!?

 

Regarding the watching of videos by lorry drivers, surely they should have an automatic ban, just somely a fine and loss of points.

As far as using the mobile phone is concerned, I am amazed how many car drivers and especially Lorry/van dviers we see in the Uk still using them, and often when doing dangerous manoeuvres - I just cannot understand this, and as ffar as I am concerend the mobile is turned off when I am driving wihtout a passenger. Whatever happened before such things existed!

 

[Klyne]

Keith T - 2012-01-05 10:10 PM

 

Question - if -as we do - already have the fixed camera locations shown on the Tom tom satnav, and this is updated on a regular basis, how do you disable it.....or is it likely that the next update will automatically remove it!?

 

 

 

Keith

 

Speed Camera POI's are easy enough to remove by using Tom Tom Home which is a free download if you have not already got it. I am sure I read somehwere that TomTom were going to stop including speed camera updates for those countries where they are now banned. It might be worth checking the Tom Tom website for up to date information.

 

David

[Patricia]

I have just updated my TomTom and both the French and Spanish fixed camera locations have disappeared.

[Guest JudgeMental]

How is the speed camera prohibition practically going to apply to motorhomes...Surely this is aimed more at fast cars etc....They still have to have a good reason to stop you, so if within speed limit is this really a concern? Like someone else said are they going to remove the speed trap warning signs as well...Typical French bureaucracy IMO, bring back the aristocracy!

 

If we get stopped (unlikely, as we have not been in 30 years) I will chuck ours in the glove box and lock it.....

[Guest ChrisB]

Patricia - 2012-01-06 12:09 AM

 

I have just updated my TomTom and both the French and Spanish fixed camera locations have disappeared.

 

On my new Garmin (and on the website downloads) the French "Safety Camera" POIs have been replaced by "Danger Zones". How these compare with the original speed camera POIs I have no way of knowing.

 

It looks as though TomTom may take a similar route:

http://uk.support.tomtom.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5560/?locale=en_GB

"We are working on a new service for France that warns you about danger zones instead of speed cameras. To keep up-to-date with the latest news about this new service go to FAQ Is the TomTom Speed Camera service legal?, subscribe to this page by clicking the Notify me link at the end of the page. We'll send you a mail when more information is available."

 

[Patricia]

Thank you Chris for the TomTom information. I have signed up for the email update. I don't know why the Spanish speed notifications have disappeared but it is not important - very unlikely to go there again, certainly not this year.

 

Just a reminder Judge that the French police do not need a reason to pull you over - they can stop you any time they feel like it, whether you have given them cause or not!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Just to be the Devils advocate, for the first time in over 45 years of driving just this morning I had a gentleman quite without warning and without looking step on to a pedestrian crossing as I was bearing down on him. There is absolutely no doubt that had I been exceeding the limit he would have been plastered all over the front of my car. Why not acknowledge speed limits do have a purpose, if so why are drivers so obsessed with warning POI's or radar detectors. Just stick to the speed limits would seem to be the best idea, and in any event mobile cameras can still get you, so why take the risk.

[thebishbus]

You know, I think someone has lost the plot here.Surely the aim is to try to reduce accidents. In my opinion, the more devices that advice a driver of his speed the better. Once you see a speed warning or camera device, you do check your speed, and slow down if necessary, that must make the roads safer, but of course does not raise any income. It seems to me that the authorities are more interested in raising income, than reducing accidents. In fact it could be argued, that the authorites are responsible for any increase in accidents on those roads, just to increase their income, regardless of the outcome

Brian B

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

thebishbus - 2012-01-06 5:19 PM

 

You know, I think someone has lost the plot here.Surely the aim is to try to reduce accidents. In my opinion, the more devices that advice a driver of his speed the better. Once you see a speed warning or camera device, you do check your speed, and slow down if necessary, that must make the roads safer, but of course does not raise any income. It seems to me that the authorities are more interested in raising income, than reducing accidents. In fact it could be argued, that the authorites are responsible for any increase in accidents on those roads, just to increase their income, regardless of the outcome

Brian B

 

Come on, there were and are pre-existing speed limit signs everywhere, and very often numerous repeater signs as well, all there long before speed cameras came along, but were routinely ignored by the selfish few, I still see it now on a daily basis right outside our local school. The trouble is we are all the best drivers in the world and the limits don't apply to me is the usual mindset. With respect you should not need to be checking your speed because of a camera sign, you should be doing that in any event. Most fixed cameras that are known to drivers see them slowing down,just long enough to get past the camera, then many speed up again which frankly is rather stupid and ill advised, especially if someone does step in front of you without warning as happened to me earlier today, at 30 I was able to stop, at 35 he would be in hospital or worse.

[Derek Uzzell]

1footinthegrave - 2012-01-06 3:53 PM

 

Just to be the Devils advocate, for the first time in over 45 years of driving just this morning I had a gentleman quite without warning and without looking step on to a pedestrian crossing as I was bearing down on him. There is absolutely no doubt that had I been exceeding the limit he would have been plastered all over the front of my car. Why not acknowledge speed limits do have a purpose, if so why are drivers so obsessed with warning POI's or radar detectors. Just stick to the speed limits would seem to be the best idea, and in any event mobile cameras can still get you, so why take the risk.

 

This is irrelevant as far as the French plans to prohibet speed-related 'driver aids' are concerned.

 

My Garmin sat-nav has a 'safety camera alerts' option. It provides audible and visual warnings of the locations of fixed speed cameras and areas where police speed checks are common. Sometimes the locations warned of are wrong and it's anybody's guess whether the speed-check information is correct.

 

The Garmin's 'safety-camera alert' option is legal in the UK and, although I sometimes find it irritating, I'd rather have it operative than switched off. In France speed limit signage seems to be less apparent and more variable than in the UK and I regularly find myself coming out of a French non-urban speed-limited zone without having been aware that I had entered it. As I've no wish to break French speed limits accidentally, I consider a Good Thing anything that will aid me not to. The renaming of the safety-camera alert warnings to become 'danger alert' warnings (which is what sat-nav manufacturers are apparently planning to do for French-marketed sat-navs) just highlights what a daft idea the French prohibition is.

 

It will be interesting to see how the French legislation is worded and whether or not temporarily disabling a sat-nav's safety-camera alert option while driving in France would be legally acceptable, or whether the option would need to be removed completely from the sat-nav.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

I'm not sure it is irrelevant, driver aids for speed cameras are the same in France as they are here, to avoid detection for speeding by warning of the presence of a camera.

I have motored extensively in France and always thought their speed limit signs no better or worse than the UK, and I've always thought the simplicity of place name signs to designate the limit in built up areas was one that the UK could follow. My satnav can be set to give an audible and visual warning of the speed limit of the road that I'm currently on, so I'm not sure that this will be any different under their proposals will it. I would sooner be getting up some Frenchmans nose for going to slow,than getting a ticket from the Gendarmerie in any event.

[Basil]

My understanding of this is that Sat Nav camera positions are NOT being outlawed only devices that DETECT cameras are being outlawed this is as stated from the French Embassy and shown on the AA website see

 

http://www.theaa.com/motoring_advice/overseas/radar-detectors-in-france.html

 

Also see

 

http://www.inforad.net/supp_faq_en.php?pn=im&lang=en

 

and

 

http://www.iphoneappsplus.com/navigation/alertradar/index.htm

 

and

 

http://www.kent.police.uk/advice/personal/travelling_abroad/report_a_crime_france/news_advice/News%20-%20Speed%20detecti.html

 

So unless there has been a further change to the published updated Article R413-15 of the French Highway Code then Sat Nav warnings are legal.

Not sure why Tom Tom have changed their position as they were origionally saying that it was legal.

 

If there has been a further change then it appears that I am not the only one that is confused as even the AA and Kent Police believe that Sat Navs are legal!

 

 

Bas

[whisturx]

With TomTom if you have to turn off the speed camera warnings it is far easier to tick the box under "safety options" to warn when driving faster than allowed. I use this all the time in France as I am never sure where village speed limits start or even if there is a limit at all. Much easier.

I turn it off in the UK in the car on a motorway, as who travels at 70 mph and the bleeping noise will drive you crazy

[hallii]

Here is a gtranslation using Google of:-

 

http://anti-radar.org/r413-15-code-de-la-route-interdiction-avertisseur-radar-2012/

 

The Decree No. 2012-3 of 3 January 2012 on various road safety measures which establishes the prohibition of warning radars is applicable from January 5, 2012

 

I. - The possession or carrying a machine, device or product of nature or presented as being capable of detecting the presence or disrupt the operation of apparatus, instruments or systems for the recognition of violations of the law or regulation road traffic or allow to avoid the recognition of these offenses is punishable by a fine for contraventions of the fifth class.

 

Having to use a machine, device or product of the same nature is the same penalties.

 

II. - This device, this device or product is entered. When the machine, device or product is placed, adapted or applied to a vehicle, this vehicle can also be entered.

 

III. - Any person guilty of an offense under this section is liable also the following additional penalties:

 

1 ° The additional penalty of suspension for a period of three years at most, driver's license, the suspension may be limited to driving outside professional activity;

 

2 ° confiscation of the vehicle when the device was used or intended to commit the offense is placed, adapted or applied to a vehicle.

 

Any conviction automatically leads to the confiscation of the device that was used or intended to commit the offense.

 

IV. - This ticket gives rise automatically to the reduction of six points in the driver's license.

 

V. - The provisions of this Article shall also apply to products or devices to warn or inform the location of equipment, instruments or systems used for finding violations of the law or regulation of traffic.

 

 

The last section "V" above is the one that applies to GPS based warning sytems., at least as I see it, but then I

am not a French lawyer, and I suspect there might be a test case or two.

 

If the GPS is warning of "Danger" or "Hazards" that is OK, that's why Tomtom and no doubt others are working on such a dbase.

 

H

 

 

 

[Guest pelmetman]

Think I might of got a speeding ticket in Biarritz 8-)...........Going up hill doing 35 sat nag said 45 and a camera flashed me, no signs to say what speed I should be doing *-)

 

Well if I have got one I will have it framed and put in the back window of the camper :D...........21 year old camper gets caught speeding UP hill (lol) (lol) (lol)

[hallii]

pelmetman - 2012-01-07 4:36 PM

 

Think I might of got a speeding ticket in Biarritz 8-)...........Going up hill doing 35 sat nag said 45 and a camera flashed me, no signs to say what speed I should be doing *-)

 

Well if I have got one I will have it framed and put in the back window of the camper :D...........21 year old camper gets caught speeding UP hill (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

You will probably get away with it, I have been flashed a few times but no ticket.

However, the British Police will now serve the French ticket in some areas, I wonder if British ones get served abroad? I doubt it.

 

H

[hallii]

pelmetman - 2012-01-07 4:36 PM

 

Think I might of got a speeding ticket in Biarritz 8-)...........Going up hill doing 35 sat nag said 45 and a camera flashed me, no signs to say what speed I should be doing *-)

 

Well if I have got one I will have it framed and put in the back window of the camper :D...........21 year old camper gets caught speeding UP hill (lol) (lol) (lol)

 

You will probably get away with it, I have been flashed a few times but no ticket.

However, the British Police will now serve the French ticket in some areas, I wonder if British ones get served abroad? I doubt it.

 

H

[Tony Jones]

Maybe you'll get booked twice!!

 

hallii - 2012-01-07 4:34 PM

 

Here is a gtranslation using Google of:-

 

http://anti-radar.org/r413-15-code-de-la-route-interdiction-avertisseur-radar-2012/

 

The Decree No. 2012-3 of 3 January 2012 on various road safety measures which establishes the prohibition of warning radars is applicable from January 5, 2012

 

I. - The possession or carrying a machine, device or product of nature or presented as being capable of detecting the presence or disrupt the operation of apparatus, instruments or systems for the recognition of violations of the law or regulation road traffic or allow to avoid the recognition of these offenses is punishable by a fine for contraventions of the fifth class.

 

Having to use a machine, device or product of the same nature is the same penalties.

 

II. - This device, this device or product is entered. When the machine, device or product is placed, adapted or applied to a vehicle, this vehicle can also be entered.

 

III. - Any person guilty of an offense under this section is liable also the following additional penalties:

 

1 ° The additional penalty of suspension for a period of three years at most, driver's license, the suspension may be limited to driving outside professional activity;

 

2 ° confiscation of the vehicle when the device was used or intended to commit the offense is placed, adapted or applied to a vehicle.

 

Any conviction automatically leads to the confiscation of the device that was used or intended to commit the offense.

 

IV. - This ticket gives rise automatically to the reduction of six points in the driver's license.

 

V. - The provisions of this Article shall also apply to products or devices to warn or inform the location of equipment, instruments or systems used for finding violations of the law or regulation of traffic.

 

 

Don't you just LOVE Google Translate?

[Basil]

Thank you Halii, that seems pretty definitive to me and is different to what was origionally produced back in, I think, May/June last year when these proposals were made public. Clearly they have decided to take the origional Article further than they said.

 

Thanks again for that information.

 

Bas

[Derek Uzzell]

Basil - 2012-01-08 10:31 AM

 

Thank you Halii, that seems pretty definitive to me and is different to what was origionally produced back in, I think, May/June last year when these proposals were made public. Clearly they have decided to take the origional Article further than they said.

 

Thanks again for that information.

 

Bas

 

I believe you'll find that it's the opposite way round - that the present regulations (they became effective from 5 January 2012) are watered down versions of what was originally planned.

 

The French government planned to ban, in May 2011, all 'passive' equipments that provided information about safety-cameras or speed-check zones. Under pressure from the manufacturers of such equipments (eg sat-navs) the French government agreed to the present, less draconian rules.

 

It needs to be emphasised strongly that, although it's very likely that the French police will not begin to prosecute for a while drivers who are infringing the new regulations, any driver with a sat-nav that has the capability to provide 'alerts' specifically relating to safety-cameras/speed-check zones will be vulnerable.

 

It won't be sufficient merely to deselect your sat-nav's 'alerts' option while driving in France, the sat-nav will have to be updated either to remove the alerts option or so that it meets the French government's agreed protocol. This protocol allows sat-navs to provide 'driver aids' and that information can include non-specific imprecise references to the locations of safety-cameras or speed-check zones. (Basically, the equipment can 'say' "You had better be careful on this stretch of road", but the driver won't be told whether this is because there's a camera there or because deer regularly leap out of the adjoining forest.)

 

Some equipment manufacturers already have downloadable software updates available that can convert 'old style' sat-navs so that they conform to the latest protocol, but not (apparently) Tom-Tom or Garmin yet. The arrangement seems to be that part of the download procedure involves provision of a certificate that can be presented to the French police to prove that your sat-nav has been 'legalised'. New sat-nav equipments that conform to the protocol will have the Get-out-of-Jail certificate when they are purchased.

[Derek Uzzell]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-01-08 6:32 PM

 

...Some equipment manufacturers already have downloadable software updates available that can convert 'old style' sat-navs so that they conform to the latest protocol, but not (apparently) Tom-Tom or Garmin yet...

 

Evidently there's now an update available for Garmin sat-navs to make them conformant with the latest French regulations. See

 

http://www.garmin.com/fr/100pourcentlegal/

 

Dunno about Tom-Tom sat-navs.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-01-09 7:15 AM

 

Derek Uzzell - 2012-01-08 6:32 PM

 

...Some equipment manufacturers already have downloadable software updates available that can convert 'old style' sat-navs so that they conform to the latest protocol, but not (apparently) Tom-Tom or Garmin yet...

 

Evidently there's now an update available for Garmin sat-navs to make them conformant with the latest French regulations. See

 

http://www.garmin.com/fr/100pourcentlegal/

 

Dunno about Tom-Tom sat-navs.

 

Yet another follow-up....

 

I have a Garmin Nuvi 1340 sat-nav with a 'safety-camera alerts' option. I've looked at the Garmin website and this offers me two choices of how I may make my sat-nav conform to the revised French regulations.

 

Choice 1: Deselect the 'alerts' option through the sat-nav's touch-screen. The procedure is described in detail, but it falls into the 'everybody should know how to do this' category as far as I'm concerned.

 

Despite Garmin's assurance that this action makes the sat-nav French-law conformant, I'm far from confident that it does as Garmin's advice directly conflicts with advice on other websites.

 

Logically, Garmin's advice is wrong, as deselecting the alerts option is a purely temporary measure and it takes just seconds to reselect it. This appears to contradict the French regulation that an in-vehicle equipment must not be capable of providing specific safety-camera information. Although deselecting the alerts option stops the sat-nav from providing safety-camera warnings, it does not remove the sat-nav's capability of doing so.

 

Choice 2: This offers a "Dangerous Zones - France" download from the Cyclops traffic-safety database. You can have it as a free 30-day trial, a one-time 'snapshot' (£4.99) or a 1-year unlimited-updates subscription (£13.99).

 

We shall not be going to France until March, by which time (hopefully) the legality, or otherwise, of Choice 1 will have been resolved. If it turns out that simply deselecting the alerts option is not legally acceptable to the French authorities, then I'll download the 30-day free trial just before we travel. As we won't be abroad for more than a fortnight, that should provide conformity for the March trip and I'll think about the £4.99 download later.

 

 

[Guest ChrisB]

 

 

We shall not be going to France until March, by which time (hopefully) the legality, or otherwise, of Choice 1 will have been resolved. If it turns out that simply deselecting the alerts option is not legally acceptable to the French authorities, then I'll download the 30-day free trial just before we travel. As we won't be abroad for more than a fortnight, that should provide conformity for the March trip and I'll think about the £4.99 download later.

 

 

The "30 day" reference to the free download i believe refers to the database update period. The "Danger Zones" will be available for as long as they are installed on your device - just not updated regularly unless you take out a subscription.

 

I gave a link earlier to a TomTom page which indicated they would be following a similar route to Garmin.

http://uk.support.tomtom.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5560/?locale=en_GB

 

I have the "Danger Zones" French POIs on my new Garmin, but as my previous satnav was a TomTom I have no way of comparing the new "Danger Zones" entries with the earlier "Safety Cameras".

 

[Derek Uzzell]

ChrisB - 2012-01-09 11:47 AM

 

 

 

We shall not be going to France until March, by which time (hopefully) the legality, or otherwise, of Choice 1 will have been resolved. If it turns out that simply deselecting the alerts option is not legally acceptable to the French authorities, then I'll download the 30-day free trial just before we travel. As we won't be abroad for more than a fortnight, that should provide conformity for the March trip and I'll think about the £4.99 download later.

 

 

The "30 day" reference to the free download i believe refers to the database update period. The "Danger Zones" will be available for as long as they are installed on your device - just not updated regularly unless you take out a subscription.

 

I gave a link earlier to a TomTom page which indicated they would be following a similar route to Garmin.

http://uk.support.tomtom.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5560/?locale=en_GB

 

I have the "Danger Zones" French POIs on my new Garmin, but as my previous satnav was a TomTom I have no way of comparing the new "Danger Zones" entries with the earlier "Safety Cameras".

 

I'm not certain that what you say about the free 30-day trial is correct. The Gamin website says this:

 

"Free Trial – Not sure if you are interested in a safety camera subscription? A 30-day free trial allows you to test out the service free of charge. Updates can be downloaded to your device throughout the free trial period. One free trial is offered per device and at the end of the trial, a new One-time update or One-year subscription can be purchased. The free trial is not available for all safety camera regions."

 

As I read that, updates to the 'Danger Zone' POI file can be downloaded as many times as you like during the 30-day trial period, but, once the 30 period has expired, the Danger Zone POI file on the sat-nav will cease to be accessible. If that were not the case, there would be no incentive to purchase a One-time 'snapshot', because an update downloaded on, say, Day 29 of the 30-day trial period would contain near as dammit the same data.

 

My Garmin 1340 came with a "Language Guide" feature, provided as a limited duration trial version. If I attempt to select the Language Guide feature nowadays, I get a message telling me that the trial version has expired and directing me to the appropriate part of the Garmin website where I can purchase the Guide for £30.99. I would anticipate a similar policy being adopted for the Danger Zone free trial.

 

Your new Garmin device already has the Danger Zone data loaded on to it - effectively, you were provided with a 'free' One-time update when you purchased the sat-nav. I'm in a different position, as my older model sat-nav hasn't got those data and (realistically) I wouldn't expect Garmin to provide the information on a long-term free-of-charge basis.