Lord Braykewynde Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Now that HS2 has been given the go ahead let's just hope that those who build the line, it's infrastructure and rolling stock are British companies and it benefits UK jobs. What we don't want to happen is what happened when the French won the contracts for the power stations and they employed foreign workers. The same goes for the German company building rolling stock for the Thames link. If the line, along with the present ones, help to keep down or reduce lorry transport the better. As far as the landscape is concerned the line will have nowhere near such an impact as if it was a motorway as those who knew Shap in the Cumbria fells will remember pre M6 days. They built the M6 alongside the railway and what a blight it is. A massive scar. If it wasn't for the catenary since electrification no one would realise that there was also a railway line there. This is the first kick in the teeth that the powerful road lobby has had since Ernest Marples days. I wonder how much of their money was going into the anti campaign :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Lord Braykewynde - 2012-01-10 5:58 PM This is the first kick in the teeth that the powerful road lobby has had since Ernest Marples days. I wonder how much of their money was going into the anti campaign :-) You must lead a very sheltered life on your private estate with your own roads if you have not noticed the huge and ever increasing tax burden imposed on motorists and toad transport over the last 40 years to enable us to use ever more congested and poor condition roads. Compare the cost that motorists pay towards road building and maintainence to the fares that train users pay towards the cost of the railway network and you might find a stark difference in the vfm that motorists get for their unfair burden. I fail to see how building a new railway line to shave a few minutes off of a rail journey time is going to benefit the nation in the forseeable future given the UK's record of building anything on time and within budget. You may see the M6 across Shap as an eyesore - we see it as a refreshingly scenic and almost enjoyable motorway journey - unless it snows! Why not use that money to build a new toll free M1/M6 all the way from Dover to Carlisle instead - but not into Scotland of course unless they vote to stay with us! Or a new M25 around the old M25 - now that would be a blessing for many more everyday people than a poncy expensive railway ever will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 One of the best by-passes ever, M6 through Tebay. Ask the people of Kendal. :-) Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 We are told that one of the most important benefits of the HS2 is that businessmen will be able to get from London to Birmingham 49 minutes faster than they do now, but it won't be for another 14 years. Surely by then, if todays communications technology innovations are anything to go by, it shouldn't be necessary for so many businessmen to be doing that journey. ...............and ,of course, you can double whatever they say the cost is going to be. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 I agree Malc'...They're quoting exact minutes saved and costs etc.. yet over the time scale involved,they surely can be no more than guess work...!? ..and what is it all the time,with this rush to get down to London?...if someone's business is that dependent on them getting to or from London 40min quicker,then maybe they need to rethink their business strategy somewhat?.... :-S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 malc d - 2012-01-10 7:18 PM but it won't be for another 14 years. Before the line is finished and opened they will be able to teleport from London to Birmingham - and it will undoubtedly be cheaper and more reliable! Beam me up Brummie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave225 Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Has anyone asked Bob Crowe? I suspect he has already planned that employees will get triple time for working weekends and any holidays and of course will have to have teabreaks along the route. And of course there are the dreaded leaves to contend with.Every Autumn and schedules will be slowed to compendsate, probably adding about 10 minutes to current times. Mind you have a look at Holland. They built a similar line between Amsterdam and Breda and it runs 85% empty and requires a subsidy of £300000. People refused to pay the premuim fares even when the normal trains were slowed to encourage them on to the HS one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Tracker - 2012-01-10 6:11 PM You must lead a very sheltered life on your private estate with your own roads if you have not noticed the huge and ever increasing tax burden imposed on motorists and toad transport over the last 40 years to enable us to use ever more congested and poor condition roads. Compare the cost that motorists pay towards road building and maintainence to the fares that train users pay towards the cost of the railway network and you might find a stark difference in the vfm that motorists get for their unfair burden. I fail to see how building a new railway line to shave a few minutes off of a rail journey time is going to benefit the nation in the forseeable future given the UK's record of building anything on time and within budget. You may see the M6 across Shap as an eyesore - we see it as a refreshingly scenic and almost enjoyable motorway journey - unless it snows! Why not use that money to build a new toll free M1/M6 all the way from Dover to Carlisle instead - but not into Scotland of course unless they vote to stay with us! Or a new M25 around the old M25 - now that would be a blessing for many more everyday people than a poncy expensive railway ever will! The lobby consists of road transport firms. It is they who do the damage so they should pay. Maybe once HS2 is built it will free up more space for rail freight. The downside is instead of staring up the arse of a 44 tonner at present you will be able to study what a blight on the landscape the M6 is :-) Nobody can deny that our roads are clogged up. What do we do, build more motorways which do more environmental damage than a two track rail line? Compared to other countries in Europe the rail system has been neglected in this country for the last 50 years. Now it's time to play catch up with the rest of the world the whingers are bleating. Why can the rest of Europe manage to have an excellent rail system yet this country alone has ours based on roads? The French built the TGV and that is still making a profit and it's already paid for itself. 40% of freight in France goes by rail and about 20% still goes by canal. Only 40% of freight goes by road. Why do you think that on forums like this people spout on about the great open spaces on French roads? The Germans still invest heavily in rail although making a profit whilst doing so. What have we got? Clogged up roads which are crumbling. Motorways where they are nose to tail with lorries. Yes, a great transport system for the 21st century *-) Even the lorries are imported. Considering this country invented the railways and exported to the world all we have left now is one small Canadian owned factory in Derby and that's teetering on closing down. Is it any wonder our engineering skills have gone? Regarding shaving a few minutes travelling time for business men I think you've been as gullible as a few others by reading too much of what the NIMBY's say ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Quite clearly, to make the HS2 value for money, everyone in the country should be compelled to live and work in either London or Birmingham by the time the line opens. No more congestion on the M1, M5, M6 etc etc............... Sorted :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 Blot on the landscape *-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 The lobby consists of road transport firms. It is they who do the damage so they should pay. Maybe once HS2 is built it will free up more space for rail freight. The downside is instead of staring up the arse of a 44 tonner at present you will be able to study what a blight on the landscape the M6 is :-) Nobody can deny that our roads are clogged up. What do we do, build more motorways which do more environmental damage than a two track rail line? Compared to other countries in Europe the rail system has been neglected in this country for the last 50 years. Now it's time to play catch up with the rest of the world the whingers are bleating. Why can the rest of Europe manage to have an excellent rail system yet this country alone has ours based on roads? The French built the TGV and that is still making a profit and it's already paid for itself. 40% of freight in France goes by rail and about 20% still goes by canal. Only 40% of freight goes by road. Why do you think that on forums like this people spout on about the great open spaces on French roads? The Germans still invest heavily in rail although making a profit whilst doing so. What have we got? Clogged up roads which are crumbling. Motorways where they are nose to tail with lorries. Yes, a great transport system for the 21st century *-) Even the lorries are imported. Considering this country invented the railways and exported to the world all we have left now is one small Canadian owned factory in Derby and that's teetering on closing down. Is it any wonder our engineering skills have gone? Regarding shaving a few minutes travelling time for business men I think you've been as gullible as a few others by reading too much of what the NIMBY's say ;-) Chris all I can say is sorry, you have no idea of road transport. 1) Have you ever seen any railway lines outside your local Supermarket, if you have then tell me where it is. 2) At a reasonable guess, if all spare rail capacity could be used it would only take about 5% of road freight off the roads. To make a real impact all main line rail would need to be a 4 track system. 3) You can't compare our road system with the likes of Germany, France, Spain or Italy because of the size of those countries 4 times the size of ours. Think about it, most UK distance traffic is limited to roughly 150 mile radius of Birmingham, with the exception of the two main routes down from Scotland. As for the TVG trains and other countries high speed systems, they only carry passengers and not freight. 4) We have very few waterways over here that you can compare with mainland Europe. those that we have mainly carry coal to the coal fired Power Stations. 5) Yes they do damage the roads even European countries cant get away from that, but just think how much tax the government is pulling in just on diesel tax and the vat alone and nothing else (Ask Donna) 6) Where are you going to find all the holding space needed for all this rail traffic. 7) How does all this traffic get to the holding dept, (by truck or white van man) Euroserv would be rubbing his hands at that thought (lol) ) Chris, in the 70's Ford came out with a logo, it said, 'If You Have Got It, It Came By Truck' Look around your own home and tell me if Ford got it wrong. If the previous Governments had spent half of what they received in the various transport taxes they got, we would have had some of the best roads in Europe. The longest lasting roads are the ones made out of concrete, the problem with them is the lack of grip in bad weather and joint expansion plus they are a lot more expensive to build. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Thanks Dave - couldn't have put it better! Thanks Chris - lovely picture and a fine advery for the M6 snd those who built it to blend in so well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Mmmm....how many trucks do you see? Dave Don't answer that, the lazy ba****d's are all in the Truck stop that's just out of view, :D :D Just another thought on that photo Chris. Are you aware that the old Roman Chariotway runs through there, I bet the locals did some complaining and protesting when they built it. I bet they were saying that it was a blight on the beautiful landscape :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted January 10, 2012 Author Share Posted January 10, 2012 nowtelse2do - 2012-01-10 9:55 PM If the previous Governments had spent half of what they received in the various transport taxes they got, we would have had some of the best roads in Europe. Dave You summed it up here Dave but really contradicted yourself. No doubt we could have had the best roads and I'm not denying that road tax, fuel tax, and even the MOT aren't cash cows for government but earlier you stated how small a country we are to the likes of France. In that case who wants a country covered in concrete? As can be seen, a motorway is two thirds wider than a double track mainline so needs a lot more space and that's not even counting the acreage that service stations take. Tracker mentioned about building another motorway surrounding the M25 and one from Scotland south. I can only think that he's taking the pi$$. Regarding getting goods to the shops how do the French etc. manage it? Stand on most French stations at night and you will see freight trains passing through with lorry trailers loaded onto flatbed wagons on their way to different railheads. The tractor units then take the trailers to their local destination. Another way is like Stobart is doing now, moving goods from regional distribution depots. This new HS2 line is supposed to eventually reach Scotland and connect the country with Europe through the tunnel but I'm afraid we are so far behind from neglect of successive governments that by the time it's all finished the rest of Europe will have some other system which means we'll still be playing catch up. I forgot to mention in my other post that Spain built an high speed system which runs at a profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 Chris, This country's transport system is now geared for 'just in time' delivery service, it's what supermarkets, manufacturing and the servicing company's demand. They all want it yesterday not in three to four day's time, which that would be the case if everything had to go to holding areas. Yes Stobarts do run their own trains and rail-heads and truck's but believe me no matter how big you may think Stobarts are, for the amount of goods delivered in the UK their operation is minuscule. The supermarkets in France need 2 trucks + 1 train to do the same job of 1 truck over here because of the relatively short distance our trucks do compared with theirs. Tell me how do Stobarts get the loads to the rail-heads, it's by truck, so even they have to use 2 trucks + a train. The Europeans run their (Rail, Canal Trans European transport system 24hrs a day)They have to do because of the huge distance they need to cover but the same system still needs a vast amount of trucks to still keep those goods flowing and most traffic still goes by road over there. You come down from Austria to Milan, over the Brenner either way, from Passau to Ruhr area, from the Ruhr down to France and Benelux countries, it's truck's all the way 24hrs a day even with their transport infrastructure. The plain and simple answer Chris is that our rail system can't compete or do what road transport can, because of the demands of our companies. It's all about speed and price. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brambles Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 When you look at what is happening in Europe you realise we need to improve our railways to catch up and be part of it so we eventually link up with the planned high speed network across Europe all the way to Budapest. http://www.bahnprojekt-stuttgart-ulm.de/en-gb/default.aspx This is an amazing project and we visit the exhibition about it every time we are in Stuttgart to see how it is progressing. It is awsome, literally awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 We already have a rail line from London to Birmingham. We are told ( constantly ) that the country is broke, and we will have austerity for some years to come. If that is the case, should we be spending £50 billion on a SECOND rail line from London to Birmingham just because it will be a bit quicker. No doubt it would be very nice for those who use it, but it sounds to me like a bit of a luxury that we cannot afford. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 malc d - 2012-01-11 9:36 AM We already have a rail line from London to Birmingham. We are told ( constantly ) that the country is broke, and we will have austerity for some years to come. If that is the case, should we be spending £50 billion on a SECOND rail line from London to Birmingham just because it will be a bit quicker. No doubt it would be very nice for those who use it, but it sounds to me like a bit of a luxury that we cannot afford. :-| Around 1830 people were saying a similar thing. A good job they weren't listened to else we still be in the age of the stagecoach and turnpikes (lol) Saying that this is the very reason we have such slow railways. Simply because the railway builders had to follow the same tracks as the old tram roads and skirt around fields or make detours around the landed gentry who didn't want the fire breathing monsters spooking their horses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Lord Braykewynde - 2012-01-11 11:20 AM malc d - 2012-01-11 9:36 AM We already have a rail line from London to Birmingham. We are told ( constantly ) that the country is broke, and we will have austerity for some years to come. If that is the case, should we be spending £50 billion on a SECOND rail line from London to Birmingham just because it will be a bit quicker. No doubt it would be very nice for those who use it, but it sounds to me like a bit of a luxury that we cannot afford. :-| Around 1830 people were saying a similar thing. A good job they weren't listened to else we still be in the age of the stagecoach and turnpikes (lol) If there were only 1,830 people saying it I'm not surprised they were ignored. But it seems that the only case you have put forward in support of spending all this money on the HS2 is that you don't like motorways. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 malc d - 2012-01-11 12:13 PM But it seems that the only case you have put forward in support of spending all this money on the HS2 is that you don't like motorways. ;-) Where did I say that I didn't like motorways? I prefer using motorways when on my rambles than A roads. The trouble is I have to compete with millions of lorries. What I was pointing out was how much more land is needed to build a motorway compared to a railway although that seems to have escaped you :-) What I don't want, and anyone who thinks we do needs a shrink, is even more of the countryside covered in concrete because of this countrys out of date transport policy. With the population rising massively due to our open door policy a city the size of Nottingham needs to be built every year to house them so yet more concrete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Lord Braykewynde - 2012-01-11 4:29 PM malc d - 2012-01-11 12:13 PM But it seems that the only case you have put forward in support of spending all this money on the HS2 is that you don't like motorways. ;-) Where did I say that I didn't like motorways? I prefer using motorways when on my rambles than A roads. The trouble is I have to compete with millions of lorries. What I was pointing out was how much more land is needed to build a motorway compared to a railway although that seems to have escaped you :-) . My apologies sir . From the fact that you brought up the subject of motorways in 5 of your 6 postings, when the thread is about the high speed train, I wrongly got the impression that you didn't like 'em. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I fail to see HOW reducing the journey time between London & Birmingham will benefit UK PLC. The vast majority of business travel (those who appear to be shouting the loudest) between the 2 cities will be in relation to internal UK business, not export. In times of financial woe, it is difficult to comprehend spending such a huge amount UK PLC capital, for the benefit of a few. The current financial climate is not a time for keeping up with the Jones's just to look good. If there is a need for additional Rail capacity, why can it not be funded by the Users. Why not just expansion of the existing network with additional proven rolling stock. IMO -The BIG question should be about what cost for untried technology - like what happened to the HST (Tilting Train - remember them) designed for the London / Glasgow route - where are they now, in the scrapyards (?) I wonder how much cost differential there would be between expanding the current network vis a vis the HS2 option. But I quess thats the question they will ALL skirt around. >:-( >:-( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 flicka - 2012-01-11 8:58 PM IMO -The BIG question should be about what cost for untried technology - like what happened to the HST (Tilting Train - remember them) designed for the London / Glasgow route - where are they now, in the scrapyards (?) You have already answered that question yourself flicka. Yes, it went to the scrap yard. The Italians then took over the technology and built and exported the trains. The UK now buy them off the Italians. They are called the Pendolino. Just another British invention that this country failed to invest in. Some more are the jet engine, hovercraft and the pocket calculator. Three other British inventions are cement, concrete and tarmac. These are materials that we are very proficient in and some would even like us to be more so (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted January 11, 2012 Author Share Posted January 11, 2012 malc d - 2012-01-11 8:13 PM My apologies sir . From the fact that you brought up the subject of motorways in 5 of your 6 postings, when the thread is about the high speed train, I wrongly got the impression that you didn't like 'em. (lol) Look at the very first post in this thread and see who started it :-) Then read what I posted. I do believe I mentioned motorways so no, not entirely about HS2 :-) (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Braykewynde Posted January 12, 2012 Author Share Posted January 12, 2012 Lord Braykewynde - 2012-01-11 11:20 AM Around 1830 people were saying a similar thing. A good job they weren't listened to else we still be in the age of the stagecoach and turnpikes (lol) I'm sure that Leo McKinstry is a member of this forum and reads my posts (lol) From todays Express, quote ..... "Yet Britain was the nation that invented the railways. In the 19th century visionary engineers such as George Stephenson and Isambard Kingdom Brunel made Britain the industrial powerhouse of the world. If our forebears had adopted the negative, short-termist attitude we see today the lines would never have been built. Today the high-speed link is no vanity project. It is vitally needed for our future". Read the rest of the column here ... http://www.express.co.uk/ourcomments/view/295026/Leo-McKinstry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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