Guest Tracker Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Reading 'What Car' magazine and furtling around on the interthingy I find increasing levels of comments, grumbles and problems arising from car engines fitted with a Diesel Particulate Filter. Like many others, I too am convinced that as these vehicles age so this ill conceived and poorly executed on cost and not engineering grounds solution to ever tightening pollution controls will come back to haunt many owners - particularly those who only drive slowly and not very far. It does seem that manufacturers and salesmen in particular are failing to mention to many buyers that a DPF engine is unsuitable for short low speed stop start journeys and that unless the vehicle is driven at, generally, over 2500 rpm for at least 30 minutes (continuously NOT accumulatively) at least once a week the DPF will clog and will need main dealer attention to clean it or replace it - all at the customer's expense usually because hidden away in the small print of the handbook is a warning about this and the dealer invokes the usual get out clause - 'it must be the way that you drive it, sir as the computer shows no manufacturing fault'. Given that most drivers are oblivious to the secrets of how a modern diesel engine works because they either don't realise that they need to know, wouldn't understand if they were told, or just don't really care and trust the dealer as long as it goes OK and has a warranty, this lack of information from those who do know is nothing short of scandalous in my view. I was in a local car showroom yesterday and overheard a salesman telling an elderly customer that a certain Euro 5 small diesel engined car was fantastically economical and exceptionally 'clean'. Once outside and as we were leaving I asked the gentleman whether he knew about the DPF and short journeys . He didn't so I briefly explained and suggested that he speak to the salesman about it before he bought the car. He thanked me and went back inside. I have emailed the dealer principle and await his observations - sorry I meant denials - because no doubt all his staff are properly trained! Many of us will remember the denials from Fiat about reversing issues and water leaks, and Vauxhall about hand brakes, and many many others in recent years and it now looks as if we have another bout of multi make denial going on. So where does the future of car engines lie then until battery and charging tecnology makes then usable over longer distances? Is it petrol hybrid a la Prius? Is it hydrogen fuel cell electric? I wonder how taxi drivers will get on with DPF engined cars? Now - where's me crystal ball! CAVEAT EMPTOR - BUYER BEWARE. And for the benefit of the topic police - this applies to the base vehicles on which Motorhomes are built as well as to cars - and is yet another reason why we won't be buying a new van anytime soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Probably better to go back to buying petrol engine cars Rich, then the price of diesel will come down and us with our older diesel engined vans that don't have the DPF will benefit even more. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Funny you should bring this up as my Ford kuga had a DPF issue two weeks ago done 68k and I drive mainly motorway so not the short journeys that are known to cause a problem. Got the fault code reader on it which confirmed DPF problem, gave it a 100mile blast at 70mph in 5th gear to increase engine / exhaust temp to clear soot from filter and then deleted the error codes. 10 days and 800 miles later all seems to be ok and no engine light on. So yes there are big problems with DPF and from my eperience it doesnt just happen if you tootle about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Rich your post sounds like a Daily Mail story, full of rumour and half truths. Every time a new innovation is introduced up jump the 'doom mongers' to give all their negative thoughts about it. Over the last ten years the diesel engine has improved so much that it is completely unrecognizeable from the old unit. With all the changes made and despite the negative views it has also become more reliable. As yet their is no proof that anything you say will happen, I have no doubt a few will have a problem, they always do, but most will not and will just have a very smooth economical and reliable unit. If you wish to stick with ancient engines in the belief they are better then fine, personally I would never go back to the old Fiat engine from the X250 it does not begin to compare in any way. I did drive a new euro 5 last week and its feels even better, although Iike any new product I would wait twelve months to see if any significant problems do occur although I doubt they will. In any case the euro 5 will eventually apply to everything so anyone who does not want to stick with relics will have no choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Time will tell Henry, time will tell, and I eagerly await you advising us all what the half truths that you seem to be aware of actually are so that we may become better informed? I really hope that you are right and that all the manufacturers and sales staff can be trusted but something makes me just a tad cynical - now what can that be - oh yes - I remember - past experience and reputation of the motor industry! Following telephone discussions with one sales manager and one salesman from two different Toyota dealers this morning they both confirmed to me that they would ensure that any potential low mileage local customer for a Euro 5 diesel engined car is aware of the potential problems of a DPF and when I outlined our sort of mainly low speed local use with the occasional long trip they both suggested either we switch to hybrid, or petrol, or stick with Euro 4 until the future becomes more clear. Toyota do of course have a vested interest as they are one of the few that has viable and well proven petrol hybrids in their ranges - but at a greater cost than a diesel of course - now there's a coincidence! I hope that there are some well informed industry experts on the forum who will be able to clarify the situation but meanwhile I suspect that in reality nobody outside the car factories really knows and those inside are not about to tell us and I just wonder why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ips Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Following telephone discussions with one sales manager and one salesman from two different Toyota dealers this morning they both confirmed to me that they would ensure that any potential low mileage local customer for a Euro 5 diesel engined car is aware of the potential problems of a DPF and when I outlined our sort of mainly low speed local use with the occasional long trip they both suggested either we switch to hybrid, or petrol, or stick with Euro 4 until the future becomes more clear. I too have heard of this from dealers it is a known problem ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Vehicles with a DPF have this potential problem. I have been recently looking at Jaguar & Audi and the problem even occurs with them. Anyone thinking of buying a diesel engine car should be looking at the relative forums for the make of car and search for 'DPF Problems' I think Henry you will be surprised. Some of the cars have built up to much soot at the DPF and have built up so much heat that it has buggered them up, and with a large bill to follow. I have now switched my search to petrol powered cars. If I can find a 20000 mile 2ltr - 2.5ltr full dealer stamped service book, J reg (1992) with no cat, I will be very interested :-D Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kelly58 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 There was a program on the TV some weeks back regarding the filters and low milage either top gear or watchdog which stated buyer beware,also slightly off topic last week on radio 2 the ever increasing cost of motor fuel was being discussed and an economist stated if you did not average 18000 miles p.a. it was more cost effective to own a petrol engined car now they are more fuel efficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I was like many others a convert to a diesel car with the mileage gains, and more refined engines in the last few years. But this whole thing to drive down emissions is becoming potentially a very expensive business, what with CATs being nicked, and now this latest DPF filter malarky. I'm trying to find a mint 2 Litre petrol Sierra now, but I doubt I will have much luck. It's kind of annoying when you read that China has recently announced plans to build one of the largest coal powered stations in the world. My guess is the pollution from that wipes out any reductions here in our ever more expensive to run and maintain vehicles. A bit like you agreeing never to have any more garden bonfires, but your neighbour decides to start burning his discarded tyres as well as his garden rubbish, oh well..................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob b Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 My pal has just sold his daughters Audi diesel because of the DPF problems. She lives in London and the dreaded light came up on the dashboard and the car eventually went into 'limp mode'. The car was taken into an Audi main dealership and the DPF was declared U/S.Approximately a couple of months later, following the £1400 replacement DPF, the dashboard warning light kept coming up indicating problems with the DPF.Although she kept driving out of London to 'thrash' the car, eventually the car went into limp mode again and the recent DPF was declared U/S. Following another £1400 replacement DPF bill, he sold the car and bought her a petrol model.I understand from my pal that Audi have now done away with the DPF and use another system. Quite what the new system consists of, I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melvin Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Our local Subaru dealer highlighted this problem last year, they merely take the car out and run them in a low gear at road speed to clear out the DPF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spospe Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 bob b - 2012-01-18 2:00 PM wrote ................ I understand from my pal that Audi have now done away with the DPF and use another system. Quite what the new system consists of, I don't know. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I do not know what Audi are doing about this matter, but a search on Google using the words "audi (or Ford, or BMW etc) dpf failure" brings up a dismal list of problems perople have been having. If you want to remove the DPF, take a look at: http://www.ecuflash.co.uk/dpf-removal/ What the effect on a future MOT would be, I do not know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 we usually drive a small diesel car but witall the reported problems with DPF filters clogging up and expensive remedial work we went for a petrol with latest car....A shame as I prefer diesel The DPF is fine if you do the mileage required to burn it of...But neither our town car or our camper van do anything like enough not to cause problems down the line. at least with the panel van I use it about 50% more then the last coachbuilt so that may help a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trooper Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Someof the latest diesels have a separate tank with an additive which makes the engine cleaner. It's also Supposed to make it even more efficient , additive could be blue something, but anything to do away with the infernal filter must be good I would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Just out of curiosity,what sort of mileage and/or driving "style" are we talking about to stop these things from failing?...would just a weekly "thrash around the bypass" help sort things out? ... or is it the case that the damage caused by day to day,town/city driving,is irreversible? (..I'm just thinking about any future purchase for the OH..) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 trooper - 2012-01-18 2:45 PM Someof the latest diesels have a separate tank with an additive which makes the engine cleaner. It's also Supposed to make it even more efficient , additive could be blue something, but anything to do away with the infernal filter must be good I would think. The additive (called "EOLYS" and, as you'll see from the 1999 link below, far from novel) http://www.dieselnet.com/papers/9909rhodia/ complements a DPF but does not make it redundant. (And, if some reports on the cost of refilling an EOLYS reservoit are to be believed, the additive is almost as expensive as computer-printer ink!) When our 1995 VW Golf diesel was replaced under the Government scrappage scheme in 2009, because of DMF and DPF concerns I deliberately chose a petrol-engined vehicle as I knew we'd be doing very little mileage with the new car and most of it would entail short journeys. If i remember correctly, Ford Transit Euro V-compliant motors are fed EOLYS, while Citroen/Fiat/Peugot X250 Euro-V motors do without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robinhood Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 There are two different types of additive systems, Adblue (a urea based system reputedly made from pig wee), and Eolys (a cerium based system). AIUI, the former is largely targeted at reducing NOx emissions (and doesn't negate the need for a DPF to remove particulate matter), whilst the latter is designed to assist the action of a DPF by both catalytic action and increasing the "burn" temperature. Whatever system, it would appear that DPFs are with us for the forseeable future. My current car has one, which relies not on any fluid, but on both passive (high-speed high-temperature running) regeneration, and also active (injection of excess fuel to increase the temperature at low-speeds) regeneration. The first time I noticed the latter was on parking up at home, and the car smelt like it was on fire, with the underbonnet temperature very high. It has also actively regenerated a couple of times whilst running at relatively low speed, and again you can smell it and the engine goes a bit "lumpy". My SiLs Citroen (though this uses Eolys) is very similar, and I was able to reassure her when she last visited, as the temperature and smell were very like my own vehicle. Incidentally, my car has just sailed through it's first MOT, and the tester couldn't provide me with a smoke reading, as the value didn't register, it was so low! I do under 10,000 a year in the car, and might be seen as being at risk from DPF issues, but, having driven diesels for business for many years, I simply like the driving characteristics. Edited to add: I thought the "new" Transit had avoided the use of any of the fuids, and I can't find any reference to them (though I may be wrong). I note, however, that the 2.4 engine used to date in the RWD versions appears to have been replaced by the 2.2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bolero boy Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I went to test the new Audi A1 six months ago and was looking for the 1.6 TDI. When I said my milage would be around 5000/yr the salesman actually warned me about the DPF issue. I drive fairly quickly but dont get in the sort of quick A and M road mileage I used to. Still thinking about one but may look at petrol..............ugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 nowtelse2do - 2012-01-18 12:42 PM Vehicles with a DPF have this potential problem. I have been recently looking at Jaguar & Audi and the problem even occurs with them. Anyone thinking of buying a diesel engine car should be looking at the relative forums for the make of car and search for 'DPF Problems' I think Henry you will be surprised. Some of the cars have built up to much soot at the DPF and have built up so much heat that it has buggered them up, and with a large bill to follow. I have now switched my search to petrol powered cars. If I can find a 20000 mile 2ltr - 2.5ltr full dealer stamped service book, J reg (1992) with no cat, I will be very interested :-D Dave OK David, I am not picking on you but your posts illustrats what the problem is. To many people look up forums which are usually full of moans about the problems with a certain vehicle or vehicle part without much knowledge of that part. A DPF cannot build up to much soot unless the owner chooses to ignore the waring light. If the light comes on you just follow the instructions in the vehicle handbbook, as you would with any other light that comes on. Out of interest have just looked at mine, it very clearly states that if the light comes on you need to drive the car at around 60kph for about fifteen minutes to clear it. Rich I will not go over your original post piece by piece but stand by what I said. It will in any case be impossible to buy a new or recent model diesel without this system, it is not a new system and has been around for a few years now. As i said no doubt some will have a problem, some always do, but most will not. Getting trouble is the case with all cars be they petrol or diesel, no point in worrying about DPF on diesels it is here to stay until someone comes up with a new way of meeting to EU rules. As this is a M/H forum and the system is more recent on vans they will no doubt be discussed for ever more. Bit like the x250 reverse gear despite this getting no mentions on here, or anywhere else I have seen for a long time now. The mileage you do has no real bearing on this it depends more on the type of runs but even doing short stop start stuff the occasional short burst will clear it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Isn't this the biggest load of crap yet the clean lobby have forced on us. Oh but you can prevent problems with an occasional blast up the motorway, or for many of us that tootle to the shops, or short daily commute and not much else, is really "green" advice, I mean what is that all about, or put an additive in and keep your fingers crossed you don't end up with a big bill in any event. One things for certain, with derv now costing down here at least 15p a litre more than petrol, and the higher cost of derv fuelled cars to begin with, DPF's and DMF problems, they can stick their oil burners up their proverbial, I'll be buying petrol when my old Avensis eventually dies on me ( if it ever does ) Oh and the nearest M/way for me is about 70 miles away for a good thrash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 pepe63 - 2012-01-18 2:55 PM Just out of curiosity,what sort of mileage and/or driving "style" are we talking about to stop these things from failing?...would just a weekly "thrash around the bypass" help sort things out? ... or is it the case that the damage caused by day to day,town/city driving,is irreversible? (..I'm just thinking about any future purchase for the OH..) pepe63, I was told to look for high mileage/motorway used car 8-) and as new as poss that had good service history. Running cars at short slow speed distance were prone to be a problem. The manufactures are aware of what is happening but what they can do is anyone's guess. I will be going back over to petrol. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nowtelse2do Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 1footinthegrave - 2012-01-18 5:43 PM Isn't this the biggest load of crap yet the clean lobby have forced on us. Oh but you can prevent problems with an occasional blast up the motorway, or for many of us that tootle to the shops, or short daily commute and not much else, is really "green" advice, I mean what is that all about, or put an additive in and keep your fingers crossed you don't end up with a big bill in any event. One things for certain, with derv now costing down here at least 15p a litre more than petrol, and the higher cost of derv fuelled cars to begin with, DPF's and DMF problems, they can stick their oil burners up their proverbial, I'll be buying petrol when my old Avensis eventually dies on me ( if it ever does ) Totally agree. Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest pelmetman Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 nowtelse2do - 2012-01-18 12:42 PM I have now switched my search to petrol powered cars. If I can find a 20000 mile 2ltr - 2.5ltr full dealer stamped service book, J reg (1992) with no cat, I will be very interested :-D Dave I don't think my 99 Rover sterling 2.5 ltr has a cat ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pepe63xnotuse Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 nowtelse2do - 2012-01-18 5:45 PM pepe63 - 2012-01-18 2:55 PM Just out of curiosity,what sort of mileage and/or driving "style" are we talking about to stop these things from failing?...would just a weekly "thrash around the bypass" help sort things out? ... or is it the case that the damage caused by day to day,town/city driving,is irreversible? (..I'm just thinking about any future purchase for the OH..) pepe63, I was told to look for high mileage/motorway used car 8-) and as new as poss that had good service history. Running cars at short slow speed distance were prone to be a problem. The manufactures are aware of what is happening but what they can do is anyone's guess. I will be going back over to petrol. Dave Thanks for the response Dave .. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 pelmetman - 2012-01-18 5:57 PM nowtelse2do - 2012-01-18 12:42 PM I have now switched my search to petrol powered cars. If I can find a 20000 mile 2ltr - 2.5ltr full dealer stamped service book, J reg (1992) with no cat, I will be very interested :-D Dave I don't think my 99 Rover sterling 2.5 ltr has a cat ;-) Blimey, I'm going to get one, there's on on Ebay right now for 99p :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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