Birder Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Do any fellow motorhomers use this companies bottles & if so are they as good as their literature leads us to believe? I know I can put these questions to Safefill but somehow I think they may be a tad biased. Thanks in anticipation of your help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain_Biker Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Hi I saw them at the Manchester Show today (and that is the last time I shall visit said show, lack of signs on how to get there, parking a nightmare, quart in pint pot, lack of exhibitors etc.... and as for finding the way out of the car park and then to get to the M6!!!! horrid!!) I enquired about the connection to fill up the cylinder and adaptors for abroad, I was advised they are improving the engineering of the connection. I wonder on size, how would they fit in the locker, they look less than the 11kg cylinder On the face of it, they seem a good idea, no need for an external refil point etc. just a straight replacement for a bottle and also lighter - keep those kgs down. Like yourself, I'd like to hear from anyone with expereince of the bottles - of course, I'd be a willing client for a free bottle etc. How better to get soem views on the bottle into the forum...good marketing - a Free Sample!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mountain_Biker Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 Hi Me again, looking athe the Safefill website, it seems some forecourts may not allow re-filling the cylinders due to illegal re-filling of rented cylinders. There is no mention about refilling abroad, I wonder if someone from Safefill is monitoring the forum and can give more details...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 I have looked in to both these, and other alternatives, and despite others that may give another viewpoint,when I enquired about filling from three outlets nearest to me none of them could give me a definitive answer. I note too that the majority of filling points they give a link to are filling station forecourts. There has been endless discussions on here and other forums about re-fillable systems, the perceived wisdom is the bottles need to be installed with a fixed external filling point to minimise refilling problems or questions.You will also come across signs prohibiting filling "loose" bottles because of folk I guess using adaptors to fill other types You could as I did telephone some of your nearest forecourts as detailed on their links, and pose the question to them directly, I gave up on the idea eventually when I couldn't get a straight answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birder Posted January 19, 2012 Author Share Posted January 19, 2012 Good thinking 1foot, I will give a couple of them a bell tomorrow & report back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Syd Posted January 19, 2012 Share Posted January 19, 2012 One reason for filling stations not being keen to fill bottles is the tax position, domestic use gas is taxed more highly than road vehicle tax. In Italy you are NOT allowed to work the gas pump at all as this is done by an attendant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 The dimensions of the Safefill container are given in the Safefill website's FAQ section. Remember that this bottle is the 'single hole' variety and has to be filled though its outlet. Consequently, it's not possible to fit any sort of remote-filling connection as commonly used with a 2-hole (or more) container like Gaslow, Alugas or Stako products. See also http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25932&posts=16 Other than the ability to see the gas level in the bottle, it's a mite hard to decide why you'd choose one over a conventional metal refillable canister. I'd have one (as I'm used to using a single-hole composite bottle) but not at the asking-price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Basil Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Syd - 2012-01-19 9:58 PM One reason for filling stations not being keen to fill bottles is the tax position, domestic use gas is taxed more highly than road vehicle tax. In Italy you are NOT allowed to work the gas pump at all as this is done by an attendant Think you might have that the wrong way round!! e.g. Domestic gas is 5% vat, road gas is 20% vat Bas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Mountain_Biker - 2012-01-19 7:18 PM ...I enquired about the connection to fill up the cylinder and adaptors for abroad, I was advised they are improving the engineering of the connection... There is a significant risk involved in user-refilling 'single-hole' gas bottles, be they exchange-only bottles (eg. Calor) or the composite gas container that used to be marketed by MTH Autogas (which is what I've got). The risk is primarily procedural and relates to the person doing the refilling failing to close the bottle's outlet valve before disconnecting the autogas pump's filler-gun from the bottle. It's not so bad when a UK-standard pump is involved, as filler-gun disconnection is a 2-stage process. But that's not necessarily so abroad, where filler-gun disconnection is often single-stage. In the latter case, removing the filler-gun before the bottle's outlet-valve has been closed will result in autogas blasting out from the bottle's outlet - an exciting experience for the refiller and anyone in the near vicinity. Safefill have addressed this potential risk by adding a non-return check-valve to the outlet-valve assembly. This means that, if the filler-gun is removed when the outlet-valve is open, the check-valve will prevent gas escaping from the Safefill bottle. A non-return valve in the bottle's outlet means that gas won't come out of the bottle, but Safefill have thought of that by fitting a non-return valve that is opened when a regulator (or 'pigtail') with a UK-standard propane male LH-threaded POL connector is screwed on to the Safefill bottle. The Safefill bottle's outlet assembly has an integrated bayonet fitting for easy attachment of a UK-standard autogas filler-gun. However (as I said on the thread I gave a link to above) because the Safefill bottle's outlet is female LH-threaded to accept a POL connector, it's not possible to screw an adapter directly on to the outlet to connect to a 'foreign' filler-gun. To refill a Safefill bottle in countries that don't use the UK-standard bayonet connection requires another adapter (with a POL connector) to which 'foreign' adapters can be added. The difficulty for Safefill is that they've painted themselves into a corner with their present outlet-assembly design. The integrated bayonet-fitting provides easy connection to a UK autogas filler-gun and the check-valve guards against user forgetfullness. In fact, there's no real difficulty refilling a current-design Safefill bottle abroad - all you need are adapters (readily available) that will cost £30-£40. But it's hard to see how "improving the engineering of the connection" alone will allow refilling abroad without increasing the complexity of the refilling procedure and/or reducing the safety factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Other things to beware of when refilling 'free-standing' gas bottles are the weight and bulk of the autogas pump's filler-gun and filler-hose, plus the procedure involved when using an autogas pump. There's an illustration on Page 191 of the January 2012 issue of MMM magazine. This shows a free-standing Gaslow bottle (probably the 11kg-capacity version) with an autogas filler-gun attached to it. For readers uninitiated in the mysteries of using autogas pumps, the impression may be gained that the delivery of the gas is regulated by the filler-gun attached to the bottle eg. (like the filler-gun of a petrol-pump regulates the delivery of petrol into a vehicle's fuel-tank). This is not so - an autogas filler-gun's function is to provide a gas-tight connection between the autogas pump's delivery-hose and the bottle. The actual delivery of gas to the bottle is controlled via a button being depressed on the autogas pump itself. This procedure presents no problems when refilling a vehicle's gas tank, but refilling a free-standing bottle is another matter. If the bottle is empty/small/light, then the weight of the filler-gun/filler-hose will cause the bottle to fall over unless the bottle is tethered upright somehow, or one person keeps the bottle upright and another depresses the button on the autogas pump. So, if you are considering using autogas to refill a free-standing gas bottle, you'll also need to consider how best to do it safely. Leaving the bottle secured fimly in the leisure vehicle's gas-locker would be one method: another would be to pack stuff around the bottle in the boot of a car so the bottle is upright and won't tip when the gun/hose is trying to pull it over. Or the refilling process could be treated as a two-person exercise. 4warned is 4armed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birder Posted January 21, 2012 Author Share Posted January 21, 2012 Derek, Many thanks for the clear explanations re the filling of gas safe bottles. We do occasionally travel abroad but because we have heating supplied via Eberspacher diesel heater; it means that we have always had adequate supply of gas for cooking, washing etc. I was interested to learn that you use a composite gas container from MTH Autogas. When I tried 'Googling' MTH I kept getting a blank screen!! Now I'm not that computer literate & was wondering if you could provide me with a link to their site so I can have a look at what they have to offer. Thanks again to all who have contributed & also for the link to previous posting; it's been good to have sound informative & unbiased help. Regards, Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
takeaflight Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 I have a bottle that was supplied by MTH, with the European adaptors. I also opened an account with Countrywide Stores who supply a key and have remote fillings pumps, the one local to me is sited on a car park of a serviceman's club !!! However as already mentioned it's a pain in the butt to fill, if like me you take it down in the boot of the car on your own. You really do need to have two people or strap it down in some way. Further more it as no safety cut off so even though it holds 10ltrs I only ever pumped in 8 just to be on the safe side. I no longer use it, so if anyone wonts one cheap to pick up only from stratford-upon-Avon. Email. Roy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derek Uzzell Posted January 21, 2012 Share Posted January 21, 2012 Birder - 2012-01-21 12:01 PM ...I was interested to learn that you use a composite gas container from MTH Autogas. When I tried 'Googling' MTH I kept getting a blank screen!! Now I'm not that computer literate & was wondering if you could provide me with a link to their site so I can have a look at what they have to offer.... Roy, MTH Autogas no longer exists... It was a small company based near Parkend in the Forest of Dean and started out as a sideline of a local entrepreneur named Richard Cecil who had run a vehicle hire company at some stage (MTH stands for "Mini-Truck Hire"). Richard began to carry out vehicle LPG conversions and then branched out into marketing 'refillable' composite-construction gas bottles manufactured in the Czech Republic by Kompozit-Praha. My understanding is that these bottles were being used abroad at that time as 'exchange only' gas containers and, in fact, Antargaz's current "Calypso" bottle (see following French link) is a Kompozit-Praha (K-Z) product. http://www.antargaz.fr/-2-4-5-6-26-26-_Accueil_Particuliers_Nos_produits_Les_bouteilles_de_gaz_Gamme_butane_Calypso K-Z bottles are really not intended for user-refilling. Unlike the Safefill container, K-Z bottles have no cut-off valve to prevent dangerous over-filling and this always limited their penetration in the UK leisure-vehicle market. It was regularly announced by MTHA that a cut-off valve would become available but, although prototype valves were developed, they never entered full-scale production. MTH Autogas eventually mutated into a business managed and run by Eastern European staff, selling other makes of gas bottle and carrying out motorhome gas-system installations (with Richard Cecil haviing a consultancy role). MTH Autogas suddenly ceased trading in late-2008. Examples of the K-Z bottles are shown here: http://kompozitpraha.com/products.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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