2010 2.2 Swift Escape or stick with my 2003 2.8 Jtd PVC

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Anyone with direct experience of a X250 2.2.100 BHP with 5 speed box, preferably in a coachbuilt. At the moment got a 2003 2.8 Jtd PVC that goes like stink, so I know there will be a lack of power in comparison, but the vehicle in mind a 2010 2.2 Swift Escape 664 ticks all the other boxes,

 

so do I or don't I is the big question, all comments appreciated. ;-)

[Dave Newell]

Depends on where your priorities lie really, performance on road or performance on site. To be fair the 2.2 is a pretty good little motor and while it has a lower power than your present 2.8 (100BHP against 127BHP respectively) I think you'll find its performance on road is adequate if not startling. Don't forget that up till about 2000 and the introduction of the 2.8 JTD motor many motorhomes had less than 100BHP from bigger motors. I'd say take a test drive but when you do so take into account that the vehicle you drive will most likely be empty so you'll have to guess what effect all your clobber added will make to the performance.

 

BHP is not the factor we should really be looking at though, torque is far more important and what we really need is a torque curve that starts at low revs and builds progressively. Oldest saying in auto engineering is "torque turns wheels".

 

D.

[Derek Uzzell]

I thought you'd had a gutful of expensive-to-run motorhomes... ;-)

 

MMM reviewed a Swift Escape 664 in the August 2009 issue (Pages 118 - 124).

 

The original model was built down to a price specification-wise and lacked things like electric mirrors and a passenger air-bag. MMM on-road-performance comments included "Think willing rather than thrilling though, as overtaking and hill climbing exposed this engine's lack of grunt". Hardly surprising really, given the 2.2litre motor's 100PS power output, though its maximum torque figure of 250Nm (1500-2700rpm) isn't bad. But, if you think your present Savannah PVC "goes like stink", make no mistake that you'll notice a performance drop if you choose an Escape 664, particularly if you exploit its load-carrying capability.

 

rupert123 is the forum guru when it comes to owning and driving motorhomes having the Fiat 2.2litre 100PS motor and 5-speed transmission, so I'm sure he'll give you some wise words based on hands-on experience.

 

 

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

"I thought you'd had a gutful of expensive-to-run motorhomes".

 

Well yes Derek, but I'm really at a crossroads now, and even thought the unthinkable, becoming a tugger. Or giving up the whole business,and going "Premier Inns" route !!!!

 

Trouble is things change, I'm getting more creaky as each day goes by, and my IH is also like me getting older. Our granddaughter also would love to come away on occasions, out of the question with our 2 berth PVC. I'm seduced rightly or wrongly by the balance of warranty of 2 years. We did have a Elnagh 2.0 Jtd lo profile which was woefully underpowered, but just wondered if the ( Ford based I'm led to believe ) 2.2 was another animal.

 

Thanks also to Dave Newell for his input which I'll take fully on board. I'm reluctant to mention this, but am I likely to get the fault that dare not speak it's name.

 

;-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

I think you would be disappointed as nothing worse then driving a gutless vehicle particularly when you hit a hill *-) The 130 in mine is much better I would think.

 

Also I would drive or even hire a coachbuilt for a weekend as compared to driving a PVC they are horrible unwieldy beasts and parking/fuel consumption worse. Have you considered a slightly longer PVC as a 6.2 metre Fiat can accommodate two rear single beds (convert to large double) and seem a bit more spacious.and most conventional layout PVC's these days are 3 berth, with front lounge/table making another bed

[Brock]

Based on commercial vehicles comments I've seen, the 100bhp is fine around town when fully loaded but "your staff won't thank you if you send them on long runs in it'.

 

You might also find the quality of build an issue because ih build to a standard, the Escape [as already mentioned] to a price.

[Guest Tracker]

JudgeMental - 2012-01-22 11:00 AM

 

I think you would be disappointed as nothing worse then driving a gutless vehicle particularly when you hit a hill *-) The 130 in mine is much better I would think.

 

Also I would drive or even hire a coachbuilt for a weekend as compared to driving a PVC they are horrible unwieldy beasts and parking/fuel consumption worse. Have you considered a slightly longer PVC as a 6.2 metre Fiat can accommodate two rear single beds (convert to large double) and seem a bit more spacious.and most conventional layout PVC's these days are 3 berth, with front lounge/table making another bed

 

A couple of points.

 

Engine performance is highly subjective as we are each satisfied with widely differing levels of power and only the buyer can decide which is right for him/her.

 

Van size is also highly subjective and unless you want to drive your van like a GTI it might be worth accepting a bit of extra width to gain the interior space and convenience. Only the buyer can decide. Having a car or second vehicle can also influence what you opt for as it makes a bigger van easier to live with?

 

Length is length, said the art mistress to the gardener, and an over 6 metre PVC will be just as awkward and limited to park as an over 6 metre coachbuilt - as well as costing more on a ferry - but still peanuts in comparison to the depreciation of a new or newish van!

 

Fuel consumption and yearly fuel cost is not going to vary that much over the probable fairly low mileage

of most vans and is far less important in the grand scheme of things than getting the right van at the right price.

 

What is right for us will not be right for others - thank goodness - or some models would be very hard tro find!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

JudgeMental - 2012-01-22 11:00 AM

 

I think you would be disappointed as nothing worse then driving a gutless vehicle particularly when you hit a hill *-) The 130 in mine is much better I would think.

 

Also I would drive or even hire a coachbuilt for a weekend as compared to driving a PVC they are horrible unwieldy beasts and parking/fuel consumption worse. Have you considered a slightly longer PVC as a 6.2 metre Fiat can accommodate two rear single beds (convert to large double) and seem a bit more spacious.and most conventional layout PVC's these days are 3 berth, with front lounge/table making another bed

 

All good points,and having had two coachbuilts I know where your coming from, hence the move to a PVC a few years ago. But wonder if a PVC even a slightly longer one would be too claustraphobic with an energetic 8 year old on board as well who constantly asks if she can come with Granddad & Nanny, and I would love a fixed bed,and have been offered on the face of it an exceptional deal, but more food for thought, mmmmmm

[Guest JudgeMental]

not sure what layout you have at present, but even a rear transverse van has two areas? and having fixed rear singles (Adria & Globecar) is liking having another lounge area. Your granddaughter can spread her toys around and play while you and wife relax in front lounge. To be honest if you are only getting a coachbuilt to accommodate grandchild, how often is she really realistically going to accompany you.....

 

But if you are thinking of spending more time abroad in the winter maybe...

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

That's the beauty of these forums, other perspectives. I did look at your van when you first bought it, and was impressed. Our IH whilst almost perfect in every respect lacks the ability to carry or accommodate more than two due to the design layout with no front dinette, or additional belted seats. Since your first post Google is getting a hammering looking for Adria twins on the newer X250 chassis as realistic alternative, so thanks for that. ;-)

[rupert123]

I cannot see that power output means all that much in a small/medium m/h, none of them are built for performance and have the aero dynamics of small bungalow. As far as i can see most of us travel away from motorways in europe so performance means even less, how often do you overtake anything other than the odd tractor. I have travelled extensivly in the alps and other mountain ranges in europe and never thought I could do with more power. If you go back over old posts when the reverse thing first started on here I had at that time a 2.8 engine Fiat on a coachbuilt, 590rl Swift Sundance. I had on order a 2.3 engine Fiat, my current Sundance, but after speaking with Andy on the telephone changed my order to a 2.2 engine one. I have to admit that i was a little concerned over the loss of 30bhp but in practice it did not matter at all. On driving it could detect very little differance, in fact it felt about the same as my 2.8 Fiat power wise and was a whole lot better in every respect being quieter running and more 'car like' to drive. Things like the steering wheel are at a much better angle and the heater wortks much better. The gearbox changes gear like a car and I have never, ever, had a problem with reverse gear on the five speed box. With the Escape you will find if loaded up you may have to change gear a little more on mountain roads, but really who the hell cares, you will not be crawling up hill like an artic and will be able to maintain a decent speed. Anyone who goes on about m/h having a great performance has obviously never driven anything that goes even remotely well, they are all SLOW. It will not handle as well as a PVC but again who cares you adapt, it is called driving skill. You buy whatever suits you, at least I do, not what suits someone else. One big bonus with a Swift, the main reason my last two vans have been from them, their customer service is now among the best around. You will find the X250 engine makes the old 2.8 seem like a tractor, at least I did but the important bit to us is the bit at the back, the living part. We are now looking at PVC for our own reasons and I guess will certainly buy one some time this year but again we are all differant, unlike Eddie, we will not even consider an Adria, not saying his choice is wrong, just not for us. Our likely choice is Timberland Destiny with Autosleeper Warwick or Autocruise Rhythm as next choices. For a coachbulit we would buy another Swift, just as long as it has the X250 engine of any size.

[Guest Tracker]

We met a couple in France earlier this year who had an Adria twin having recently traded down from a coachbuilt in the hope of easier touring and their verdict was that, for them at least, it would be better to have the interior space of the coachbuilt because in reality the drivng, parking and pleasure derived from a smaller van severly detracts from the pleasure in living in it and it was now their intention to revert to a small coacbuilt like an A/S Nuevo on their return having made, for them, an expensive mistake.

 

But that was just their experience - others will differ

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Mmmmm, Rupert123, you've aroused my curiosity now with your personal reasons for thinking of going over to a PVC.

 

And Tracker it is the proverbial question,PVC with 3 litre engine to drive around, Coachbuilt when you get there, American with triple slide outs for extended stays

 

Sunday dinner beckons, back later (?) :D :D

[Guest JudgeMental]

ignore the tracker as per usual he has managed to find probably one of a very few number who regret downsizing...This constant carping on about lounging space does my head in:-D How much time do some spend locked in a van I wonder! I am no lightweight and we manage OK and would rather have my finger nails pulled out then go back to a coachbuilt

 

If you can afford it get a 3 litre auto PVC as I regret not doing so and may change next year......

[Guest Tracker]

I should have said the couple we met last year not this year. Senior moment!

 

But it still puts another perspective on the panel van V coachbuilt perspective.

 

Equally I don't doubt there are some amongst us that have downsized and never once regretted it - it's just that I've never met actually met anyone who fits that scenario - possible some owners might have an ego problem with admitting that they got it wrong - and no, I'm not having a go at anyone - just stating a view!!!

 

As ever Eddie chooses to miss the point and turn it personal. Not once have I ever criticised his preferences which obviously do not include comfortable lounging. Fine if that's your idea of relaxing but it ain't mine. Once again I'm not saying my way is right - just putting an opposing point of view so there really is no need to get upset Eddie.

 

It's not only about lounging, something that I didn't even mention, as it is also about being able to cope with handling a larger vehicle without worry or stress ans well as a comfortable loo, shower, bed and plenty of space to move about inside.

 

I'm not saying a coachbuilt is for everyone and I certainly am not saying it is right for me so therefore it must be right for you but in order to form a view one must look at all the angles.

 

I just try to put alternatives because when someone says his way is right for him so it must therefore be right for you it just isn't so!

 

Now - where are my pliers as I'm always happy to oblige!

[AndyB]

We had our Elddis Sunseeker 120 for 3 years. Low profile rear lounge.

 

It was the Peugeot Boxer X250 with 2.2 100 BHP and 5 speed box.

 

Once it had loosened up it went very well indeed and was very nimble, being just under

6 metres. I guess it was doing about 30MPG and would cruise nicely at 70.

 

I bought a new Sunseeker 155 in November 2011.

It has the 2.2 130 BHP with a 6 speed box.

 

Again lovely motor.

 

Hope this helps

 

Andy

[Guest JudgeMental]

We dont "live" in a camper, not to us a "mobile home". It gets us where we want to go quicker and far more comfortably and economically then a coachbuilt, Much less tiring to drive, more car like.....

 

It is a practical second vehicle, last week went to tip twice. collected a load of wood for wood burner...and I actually use the thing whereas the coachbuilt stood on hard stand through the winter hemorrhaging money......

 

It really depends what you want out of a vehicle, as long as I can carry the bikes, have a comfortable place to eat a light meal and sleep comfortably, watch a movie, read thats it....Have no need to lounge like Nero on a bed of cushions lol Yes it is more cramped, and if back playing up I lounge on the bed, but we still prefer the overall PVC experience, It is simply a different style of travelling/camping and not for everyone....

 

Anyway, I would get the biggest engine you can afford whatever you buy,..as nothing more frustrating then dawdling along coming to a near enough halt on hills etc.....

 

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

To be fair, as said we have had two coachbuilts, followed by two PVC,s both in my view have as like most things in life plus points and minus points, and of course debated on here and other places.

 

At the end of the day I will have to bite the bullet and make the decision myself. Thanks for the contributions from all to date,AndyB who has had first hand experience, and Rupert123, who has one but is planning to change to a PVC ?, Judgemental for making me think about other PVC options that I had not considered. I also take on board

 

Trackers take on the perceived space aspect, but would add that really depends on the design of the van of course, which was the mistake we made with our Elnagh, for some reason you could not swing a cat in it, and the bolt upright seats were sheer purgatory. But it did have a fixed bed which we miss, I hate the bed making malarky with a vengeance even though quite simple in our IH.

 

Tracker I would be specifically interested on your take of running your 2.2 though as this is presumably the same or similar engine, can you get up moderate hills fairly easily, or do you have to seriously work at it.

 

The Swift Escape's layout and kit really seems a lot of bang for buck and very spacious, but having spent the afternoon looking at some of the second hand X250 PVC's since the longer Ducato van has been around has been quite an eye opener, it seems in some cases now you can have you cake and eat it in a PVC. All very thought provoking stuff, but still unable to decide ,but thanks for now guys.

 

P.S just read this, Caravan Club’s 2009 Design and Drive competition: the overall winner? A Swift Escape 686.

 

Perhaps better to toss a coin, I used to be undecided, now I just can't make up my mind ;-)

[AndyB]

Glad to have helped.

 

Have just got back from a weekend in our 155, which is a afair bit longer than the 120.

We use the M'Home all year round (at least once a month in winter).

 

I'd always liked the idea of a PVC, but a few things stopped us buying one.

 

Living in London, a reasonable sized PVC wouldn't fit on the drive and I certainly wouldn't park it on the street, therefore we stayed with a coachbuilt, which is in storage 15 mins away either by car or train.

 

The fixed bed layout on the swift looks nice. Our Elddis differs in that up front are 2 facing benches(great for lounging) as opposed to diner. We can't carry passengers or have anybody to stay over, but the fixed bed is great and can be partitioned off, which is brilliant as I like to get up early and the Mrs likes to have a lie in. I don't think we'd ever go back to making the bed up after a night on the town.

 

Once pitched up the M'home stays on site as we cycle/walk & take bus or train when we go out.

 

All the best

 

Andy

 

 

 

[tugga]

I have read all the comments about engine size and performance with interest, so I thought I would look at the Escape 664 and it looks like a really nice layout.

 

Its a bit off topice, but one thing I did notice on the photo's and that is that there appears to be only 1 outside locker. I don't know how much external locker space a PVC has, but for a coachbuilt, 1 locker is not much, although I suppose you have under the bed, but would you want to put anything dirty under there?

 

I like the fact that it has a fire, wish ours had, especially overnight in the winter.

 

I hope that your decision brings you much happiness and long travels.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Our current PVC is fairly unique in that there are no rear doors, they are replaced by the converter by a one piece glass fibre back, with an integrated boot which allows for storage of all sorts of odds and sods, including the only "dirty" items we carry, levelling ramps, mind you call me sad I always attempt to swill them.The other advantage we found is zero cold air that we experienced in our previous PVC.

 

On the O/S of the Swift there appears to be access to the underside of the fixed bed, so I would guess they could go there.

 

You quite rightly point out the addition of the convector gas fire, which I think is a boon having had one in a touring caravan and cannot understand why so few M/homes have them, no battery drain from the blow heater and virtually silent to leave on low at night, but also has the blow facility to warm up the wash room too in those chilly mornings, seems like a win, win. :-)

[Guest Tracker]

1footinthegrave - 2012-01-22 5:11 PM

 

I hate the bed making malarky with a vengeance even though quite simple in our IH.

 

Tracker I would be specifically interested on your take of running your 2.2 though as this is presumably the same or similar engine, can you get up moderate hills fairly easily, or do you have to seriously work at it.

 

P.S just read this, Caravan Club’s 2009 Design and Drive competition: the overall winner? A Swift Escape 686.

 

We too have bed making but using Raskelf Duvalays that roll up and stow in an underbed locker it takes but a minute or three to roll 'em out and, for us, it is worth what we perceive as a minor inconvenience for the extra daytime space. Others will have a different perspective!

 

Our 2.2 hdi is of the older pre X250 variety so probably will not directly compare. I can't remember the bhp and torque but for us it is on the adequate side of acceptable. Of course it does not sail up a one in five hill like a 3.0 litre and to make best progress it pays to think ahead and change down before it starts to grunt, but I find it quite OK and don't gey frustrated with it even on a long 6 week wandering trip. It will cruise happily at 65 ish - or a lot more if really called upon - but again when you come to a gradient some cog shifting is needed. On balance I find the power to NVH (noise, vibration, harshness!) of this car derived engine very acceptable and of all the 1.9 to 2.8 engines available pre X250 I think it offers the best compromise between power, fuel consumption and refinement. I can't really say econnomy but it uses from about 25 worst to 33 best and usually around 27.

That is as always a personal view and others will have different priorities.

 

I wouldn't take too much notice of anything the Caravan Club says about motorhomes after all they don't pay for the vans with their own money and neither do they live in and with them and for many years yjey were happily (allegedly) testing known dodgy gearboxes in dozens of X250s and fnever ever found any problems whatsoever in any of them! Funny that don't you think?

Judgement biased by commercialism or a lack of bottle maybe?

[Rayjsj]

JudgeMental - 2012-01-22 1:25 PM

 

ignore the tracker as per usual he has managed to find probably one of a very few number who regret downsizing...This constant carping on about lounging space does my head in:-D How much time do some spend locked in a van I wonder! I am no lightweight and we manage OK and would rather have my finger nails pulled out then go back to a coachbuilt

 

If you can afford it get a 3 litre auto PVC as I regret not doing so and may change next year......

 

 

Mayby we are unusual ? I don't know, but we spend a lot of time 'inside our van' it depends where you mainly stay I suppose, we like Scotland and the Hebrides, and there (this year) you needed a good lounging area to read your books/watch TV. But obviously in Hot weather we sit outside, under the Canopy, BUT I wouldn't swap a decent lounge for a Fixed bed or a Fixed Dining area, you CAN get PVC's with decent Lounging space (Autosleeper Warwick for one) so keep looking,we all do things our own way, NO one way is right for all. ;-) Ray

[Mel B]

You will notice a difference in performance as you're looking to go from a PVC with a larger engine to a large coachbuilt with a smaller engine. Having gone from a 1993 1.9 turbo Fiat coachbuilt to a 2001 2.8 non-turbo Fiat coachbuilt we certainly noticed the difference - yes I know one was a turbo and the other wasn't but we certainly didn't expect the difference to be so great - and regretted the change.

 

The Escape 664 is a long motorhome too which I think you may rue - I assume your PVC is around 6m max. Went went up from a 5.53m motorhome to a 7.14m one and whilst it was lovely, it was just to big, so we then went down to a 5.99m motorhome, virtually of the same layout but on a smaller scale, and haven't regretted it (although hubby does miss the stonking big garage when we've bought loads of stuff from a car boot sale! :D ).

 

On the PVC front - look at the Globecar Globescout (standard and style versions) which are similar to Eddie's Adria but in my view, better.

[LordThornber]

No wonder we have falling out on here.

 

I foot posts a perfectly reasonable question and yet an insoluble debate (argument) raises its ugly head in the form of van usage.

 

Good grief, c'mon, get a grip please. There cannot be 2 motorhome owners on planet earth that use their van in the same way never mind on here, rendering points made about lounging, handling, whatever useless.

 

Ranting Of Lancashire