2010 2.2 Swift Escape or stick with my 2003 2.8 Jtd PVC

[rupert123]

Mike why do you not listen. I live in Snowdonia my 2.2 does not build up traffic behind and it has so much torque I reckon to change gear less time's than with my car. As stated previously we are looking at PVC and the best three we have seen are all UK built so no need to bother with German or eastern europeon stuff. Depend,s what your priority is but things like the Adria, at least the one we looked at, do not even have proper cooking facilities. The Globecar Trendscout was on our list but one look at it in Manchester last week soon changed our mind. Poorly built, two ring hob, no oven, tiny fridge, very poor bathroom, how do you sit on that toilet, no headroom, even for me. Why do you not just go and drive your prefered option and see for yourself rather than all this speculation. I am with BDG here, all this talk about 3 ltr engines being able to get around fast, what rubbish, to get from a to b quickly, if that is what you wish, only stop for fuel and just keep going. Our reasons for wanting a PVC are certainly not to save 15 minutes on a long journey. Incidently our journey to Dover in the van takes between 6 and 6.5 hours depending on the traffic around Birmingham and on the M25.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Correct, I dont think you need more power then the 130 bhp either, but I hate the 6 speed box...it seems like you are always changing gear... Its the auto option I want, and up until now this has meant the 3 litre but I thing there is now with Euro 5 a 2.5 auto as well...

 

You might not like the Adria, but they build good motorhomes, The Twin SP was MMM van of the year last year with good reason IMO.......if happy to pay ££££ more for an inferior build and finish entirely up to you....

 

1foot, I would go and see the escape.....just to make sure, its not as if you have an extensive shortlist of campers in mind.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

rupert123 - 2012-01-24 12:27 PM

 

Mike why do you not listen. .

 

I am doing nothing but, and hopefully others may be getting something from the thread if faced with a similar dilemma.

 

We were intending to go and have a test drive today, but through this thread and the suggestions made looking at other options, although the missus has recently announced she does not want a van with rear doors like our last Trigano, so we have delayed until tomorrow, you know what they say, act in haste blah blah.

 

For those not familiar with the IH this is our rear lounge, so it's a tough one when looking at others, it would be another IH on the longer wheelbase x250, but we are limited by cash restraints. ;-)

[pepe63xnotuse]

1foot'...If I may be cheeky and ask..

...is the fact you want to be able to take your grandaughter,the over-riding reason you're looking to swap?(..and if it is,realistically,how often would she actually travel with you?)..or are you itching for something different/newer anyway?

 

The reason I ask is,as the vehicle you have is a quality item(and you're happy with it),how does the layout lend it'self to adding an additional(removeable) seat,using this method? :

 

http://www.unwin-safety.com/flooring-systems/68/seat-fixtures/41/removable-seat-fixture

..with a suitable lightweight seat(..of cause,that is assuming you've got the available floor space? :-S )

 

or maybe explore what would be involved in having a proper rear seat belt fitted?

 

And then just use a small drive away awning,for additional(occassional!) sleeping/living space...?

 

Spending a few quid on what you've already got,*may* be better than splashing out on a new vehicle?

 

Just another approach... ;-)

[rupert123]

JudgeMental - 2012-01-24 12:36 PM

 

Correct, I dont think you need more power then the 130 bhp either, but I hate the 6 speed box...it seems like you are always changing gear... Its the auto option I want, and up until now this has meant the 3 litre but I thing there is now with Euro 5 a 2.5 auto as well...

 

You might not like the Adria, but they build good motorhomes, The Twin SP was MMM van of the year last year with good reason IMO.......if happy to pay ££££ more for an inferior build and finish entirely up to you....

 

1foot, I would go and see the escape.....just to make sure, its not as if you have an extensive shortlist of campers in mind.

 

I agree Eddie the Adria does seem well built. However the three we are looking at, Autosleeper Warwick, Timberland Destiny and Autocruise Rhythm suit ours needs more and all carry more equipment as standard. They are also just as well built as Adria. The build quality of a PVC in any case means less than a coachbulit, the base van is the same as are all of the interior items such as fridge, cooker, heaters etc. The only real differance apart from layout is the quality of cabinets and catches and here the Timberland and Autosleeper are certainly better than Adria or Autocruise, but it is all marginal. For us the layout dictates the choice and as we carry a scooter we need a decent capacity on the rear axle. I am in no questioning your choice which for you is a good one or your would not have made it. What does puzzle me is your de-crying of UK built vans, especially as your last coachbuilt I seem to remember was, in your words, full of damp, not a great recommendation for the build quality of German vans I would have thought. I very doubt you would get this in a Swift Escape.

[Guest JudgeMental]

Rupert, Swift have had a terrible reputation for many years...and like1foot I would want to live next door to them as well if I had one :-D

 

I just disagree with what you say regards quality and finish. The German vans seem a much better finish to me. more professional, like a mini coachbuilt with proper mass produced panels .etc..... The UK van you like, tend to look very amateurish in finish, and does not benefit from economies of scale that only the large companies can produce. Carpet for wall coverings simply unacceptable IMO at this price point, I can live without an oven like most Europeans, but fully understand this UK peculiarity.

 

The autocruise/autosleeper look better then timberland IMO. also you dont need 4 seats so are after a differnt type of van......I will not put up with making up beds. Then we come to price...simply better value in Germany

 

The Euramobil I bought was a newly introduced budget range, so I can only think this is why I had the problem. It would only have become a problem if I had kept the van, 6 year warranty expired, and damp become obvious..(there were no signs of it)

[Brian Kirby]

1footinthegrave - 2012-01-23 8:53 PM

 

If this camper van, Motorhome malarky, was an exact science, there would only be one van on the market, now that's an interesting thought, think of the agonizing it would save us all from., me included. :-)

In which vein, I hope the following may be of some interest/assistance.

 

We've had two vans, and only started 'vanning in 2005. Both vans are coachbuilts, 3,400/3.500kg MAM respectively, both 6.00 metres long, low profiles, both run/ran at about 3,300Kg laden. So, in terms of what had to be shifted by the engine, very similar.

 

The first was Fiat Ducato based, 2.8JTD with the 146HP engine that was not available on RHD vans for the UK market. The present van is Ford Transit based, 2.2 litre, FWD, 130HP. Before buying the first, we hired an identical van on the 2.3JTD Ducato base. The 146HP Ducato was a disappointment because, on the road, it was never as smooth or responsive as the (very low mileage) 2.3 we had hired. I was therefore a little dubious about going backwards, in terms of cc, to the 2.2 litre Ford for the second van. I need not have been! Ford's 130HP engine is far more responsive, and unleashes its power far more readily, than Fiats' 2.8 146HP lump ever managed! Gearing may have some bearing on this, but my impression is that MPH per 1,000 RPM in top gear is not that different. I suspect that, if compared on paper, the torque and HP of both engines is as claimed, but that the shape of the torque curves and the gain in HP is radically different, so that the Ford unit just puts its power better within reach vis a vis the gears in normal driving than did Fiat's.

 

So, I think your only way to resolve your doubts is to take one for a test drive. We all drive differently, some prefer engines that slog, others engines that rev, so that will also have its influence on how the 100HP engine suits you. My expectation however, is that you will be agreeably surprised, and impressed, and may start scratching your head as to what the extra 30HP would be used for. Agreed there is a lot of electronics between your right foot and the engine but, in terms of what those electronics can produce from surprisingly small displacement engines, they are very clever indeed. Nasty and expensive if they fail, but hugely impressive if they don't which - being built as hard driven, high mileage, vans in a competitive market - they generally don't.

 

Whether you will be convinced that 100HP is actually sufficient for a 6.7 metre long 3.5 tonne low profile van only you will be able to tell. From what you have said so far, I suspect you may find the bulk of the Escape, in comparison to your present van, more of a drawback than any lack of power. Nearly all the major producers are now churning out PVCs based on the Ducato, most with variations on the Adria Twin layout, but several more original offerings as well. There must be around a dozen, plus the offerings from Adria, Globecar, and Possl. I think I'd be inclined to do a bit more digging among these before finally deciding, just to settle my mind.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Yes, thanks for that Brian, our quest is a little more straightforward as we have both decided in our particular circumstances PVC's with rear doors are off the agenda, as far as I can see that leaves little choice in our price range, and what we need, seating for three, ditto sleeping. As you say engine development has come a long way so I may be pleasantly surprised by the 2.2 which I'm further led to believe is a Ford derivative though not entirely sure , I am seduced further by a timing chain fitted to this particular lump, rightly or wrongly I've always been nervous of belts.

 

Test drive is on for tomorrow, so we'll see, I may remember why we got rid of our last coachbuilt, or I might ask Henry what he wants for his and sell mine privately. ;-)

[Brian Kirby]

1footinthegrave - 2012-01-24 7:00 PM................ As you say engine development has come a long way so I may be pleasantly surprised by the 2.2 which I'm further led to believe is a Ford derivative though not entirely sure , I am seduced further by a timing chain fitted to this particular lump, rightly or wrongly I've always been nervous of belts................

If the base is Fiat, I don't think it will be the Ford/PSA joint venture engine (probably a SOFIM unit), though if it is Peugeot/Citroen base it almost certainly will.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Well it's not a deal breaker if it hasn't, but I have got the Fiat X250 workshop manual, and it clearly states the 2.2 is a chain cam engine. A glance under the bonnet should reveal all tomorrow, I'll let you know. ;-)

[flicka]

BGD - 2012-01-24 8:59 AM

 

Dunno how much time you've got, but we've got lots.

Driving 100 miles at 55mph instead of thrashing along at 70mph is gonna take you maybe 15 mins longer. And save you maybe save you £5. A tax-free bonus of £5 for you personally, each and every 100 miles travelled.......for just 15 minutes of your time, whilst you arrive more relaxed, are safer, and enjoy the journey more.

 

Cheers,

 

Bruce.

 

 

 

 

Wow, tootling along & paying myself £20 an hour, better than working for a living :-) :-)

[Guest JudgeMental]

Adria and Hymer now produce Ducatto vans like ours with elevating roofs.........You could get one fitted to your existing van, and it will give your grandaughter a play area/bed of her own. Just a thought :-D

 

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Judge it's a very good thought, and the memory of our eldest ( who is now 41 ) is of being put up in the gods in our Commer, she said bordered on child cruelty. This was it from around 35 years ago, :D :D :D

[Guest JudgeMental]

HA ha ha.......but is that not the horrible roof with a kind of single camp bed along one or both sides?

 

I had a comer van myself years ago, cost £120 and my mate went to Morocco and back no problem :-D

 

we had a VW Westphalia with pop top roof, bed decent size double and comfortable enough..

 

how was the test ride..you've gone very quiet :D

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Quiet, like the bloody van, sold today before I even got a look in. Said they had a lot of interest in the last few days, mmmmm,

 

Back to the drawing board again.

 

Odd isn't it, we used to manage two kids, a dog, and both of us in that old Commer, I even put an overdrive unit on it and had to have the propshaft shortened to suit by a neighbour who used to work at Longbridge, happy days.

 

 

 

:-)

[wints]

1footinthegrave - 2012-01-25 7:43 PM

 

the memory of our eldest ( who is now 41 ) is of being put up in the gods in our Commer, she said bordered on child cruelty. This was it from around 35 years ago,

 

Our daughter, now 40, was also treated cruelly. She said we used to make her to sleep in the awning (when we were tuggers) every night. Couldn't have been that bad, she rarely got out of her sleeping bag before noon.

 

Allen

[tugga]

1footinthegrave - 2012-01-25 10:33 PM

 

Quiet, like the bloody van, sold today before I even got a look in. Said they had a lot of interest in the last few days, mmmmm,

 

Back to the drawing board again.

 

Odd isn't it, we used to manage two kids, a dog, and both of us in that old Commer, I even put an overdrive unit on it and had to have the propshaft shortened to suit by a neighbour who used to work at Longbridge, happy days, . :-)

 

Sorry you have lost out on the van 1footinthegrave, but I suppose it has made up your mind for you, unless it hasn't and the quest is now to find another one! :-D

 

With regard to your comma, the summers back then seemed to be a lot better than now. We always went away in school holidays with a tent and 2 small boys. If we had any rain, it only lasted a day max, but not usually that long. Nowadays as soon as the school holidays start, down comes the rain and it doesn't seem to stop until they go back in September, well to me it does, everyone else might think differently.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Well I have been thinking a great deal after digging out a picture of "Bertha" we bought her for around the cost of filling our present van up a couple of times, could repair everything with a few spanners and a hammer, nothing complicated to go wrong, and petrol that did not need a second mortgage to buy.

 

And yes the summers were better, especially 1976, and I could have a fag in my local..............happy days. :->

[rupert123]

1footinthegrave - 2012-01-26 11:09 AM

 

Well I have been thinking a great deal after digging out a picture of "Bertha" we bought her for around the cost of filling our present van up a couple of times, could repair everything with a few spanners and a hammer, nothing complicated to go wrong, and petrol that did not need a second mortgage to buy.

 

And yes the summers were better, especially 1976, and I could have a fag in my local..............happy days. :->

 

Lets face it Mike these old bangers needed to be easy to repair they broke down every few miles. By the way did you know diesel is cheaper today, as a percentage of national average wage, than it was in 1960.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

That may well be true, but I never broke down once actually on the road, but did spend quite a bit of time adjusting point gaps, replacing condensers, or changing a dodgy spark plug, but none of these things cost an arm and a leg etc. It may be rose tinted glasses, but life did seem simpler then.

 

As for fuel prices the only thing I can say is something has gone very wrong as to fill our van costs me the equivalent of a third of my weekly income now, mind you that's nowhere near "average" income now I am a "poor"pensioner, but I'm absolutely sure it was not like that in the 60's when in the late 60's I was a Bus driver, but whatever. :-(

[Rayjsj]

We seem to have 'strayed' onto the reliability of older vehicles (not me your honour !). back then (70's)

I used to drive a Commer van, badged as a Dodge (just like yours 1 foot), delivering electronic components to various manufacturers (yes we had some 'back then' ) being a 'tearaway' I used to thrash the daylights out of it, day after day, week after week. It never 'performed' as good as the first 'Transit' vans, BUT was far more reliable, and never once let me down. Eventually the Company got rid of it, because it drank the petrol (perhaps because it was at maximum revs in each gear, most of the time !) It's successors were never as reliable (early transits and a British leyland 'Heap'). This was before Diesels became the 'Norm', the early versions of which were 'Terrible things'.

Does anyone remember the Commer diesel two stroke trucks# (late 60's early 70's) they screamed like banshee's and went 'like stink' , and would give a modern truck a run for it's money. (they probably gave out more pollution than a Chinese power station !). ;-) Ray

 

# Engine was a 'Horizontally opposed flat six, or four' on the 'slower' ones.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Remember them, I used to drive one, and you could pick one out blindfolded from the engine note as indeed you could with many vehicles, and then the later Bedford TK's. All of these vehicles like you said were run round the clock, apart from a half shaft snapping on one ( probably down to me ) I never broke down. Went on to drive Daimler Fleetline buses when I decided to let my "load" get on and of the vehicle by itself, and my ears got a break from the engine din of the trucks. Don't recall a breakdown in service on those either, went on to FX4 cabs but back to din and could not hear the passengers speak because of the engine noise, but they went on and on, Sorry gone way off topic now. :-S

[pepe63xnotuse]

Rayjsj - 2012-01-26 12:11 PM

 

Does anyone remember the Commer diesel two stroke trucks# (late 60's early 70's) they screamed like banshee's and went 'like stink' , and would give a modern truck a run for it's money. (they probably gave out more pollution than a Chinese power station !). ;-) Ray

 

# Engine was a 'Horizontally opposed flat six, or four' on the 'slower' ones.

 

Oh yeah!..they made a great noise,didn't they..!

 

When I worked as a commercial vehicle body & coach builder,we had one in for a general refurb' and for us to build a beaver tail body on it,so that the owner(.. a local company),could use it transport their Sentinal steam wagon tpo shows...

Can't say I ever drove it in anger though(..only perhaps just to tootle it across the yard to the paint shop).

[Guest JudgeMental]

we spent quite a lot on an old VW van including a new engine ..it got us to Greece but not back, if I had known it would be a future classic I could have buried it and gone back now and dug it up :-|

 

The commer we bought the next year for £120, hand painted brown and white. A mate put recon gear box in on his own..just put it on his knees and pushed! But I could not go on trip due to commitments so our new Zealand mates took it, like I said earlier in went to Morocco and back no problem.

 

when they returned I dropped them at heathrow and as we were late I double parked and it was inpounded...did not bother to go a get it :D

[Rayjsj]

Its probably still in the pound, with an 8 million pound fine on it. The government are waiting for you to collect it, to pay off the deficit they are always going on about. (lol) Ray