colin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Deleted as we're all now in agreement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Just to get back to the French bed, is this so called because it is so narrow that you have to sleep head to tail? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 JamesFrance - 2012-01-27 8:50 PM Just to get back to the French bed, is this so called because it is so narrow that you have to sleep head to tail? Now there's a thought :D Have rented two vans with the bed beside washroom layout. On RV it was very good, a big bed with decent sized washroom and dressing area beside it. On Rimor c/b it was o.k. bed was narrower than we would like ,washroom was long and narrow but worked well. Have seen two PVC's with this layout and not to our liking at all, bed and washroom where much to narrow for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 JamesFrance - 2012-01-27 8:50 PM Just to get back to the French bed, is this so called because it is so narrow that you have to sleep head to tail? Nooooooo..Its because you have no choice but to have sex with each other, so that you can fall asleep :-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Your not looking at the right panel vans that's why. This Brit turned up on an Aire, why he'd even got his own lift at the back. 8-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Tracker - 2012-01-27 8:22 PM rupert123 - 2012-01-27 8:17 PM colin - 2012-01-27 7:31 PM No here's how to disagree on a forum. Anyone who doesn't have the same van as mine is a complete and utter moron, how do I know this? well it's obvious, my choise is right and everybody elses is wrong, I mean, why would anyone want a longer/shorter, wider/narrower, taller/lower van than the ideal that is mine. *-) Sorry Colin you are completely wrong because my van is the ideal one so not sure how yours could possible be. You're both completely and utterly bonkers because surely any fool can see that my choice is the right choice for everyone !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So there! Oh no its not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
francisgraham Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I find myself fully supportive of Tracker on this thread. The third post by Robertand Jean says very much the same as Tracker that, in his opinion coachbuilts offer better value etc. but Judgemental hasn't accused him/her of disruption and trolling.In the very next thread Judgemental once again made his claim for the superiority of panel van conversions, after which Tracker posted a reasonable response giving his view as to why he prefers coachbuilts but, for some reason, RobertandJean's post is acceptable to Judgemental, but Tracker's isn't and it does rather prove that Judgemental simply doesn't like Tracker and therefore considers his posts as worthless.What I found most amusing was Judgemental's claim about Tracker 'being desperate to justify his choice' as, on the odd occasion I browse this forum, I seem to see nothing but Judgemental justifying his change of motorhome design with all the zeal of a born-again Christian. He seems unable to talk about motorhomes without telling us how wise he is to have moved to a PVC, how he will never again buy a coachbuilt and, by implication, how silly are those who buy them.When he bought his previous coachbuilt motorhome(s), was he suffering a mental aberration or simply very silly in not doing what he now considers is the proper research necessary to choose the correct construction method?I've just bought a new, moderately-sized, fully winterised coachbuilt by the way, after doing a lot of research myself and after trawling three motorhome forums for advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Some fair points Francis! lol. I certainly believe panel vans a better dual purpose vehicle, We dont have the luxury of many months away at a time, so a smaller more convenient dual purpose vehicle makes more sense for us. I have explained before, have been at this a fair time and only got the coachbuilt under the mistaken belief that we needed the room as kids were now tennagers...They are happy sleeping in a tent so that was my mistake. Every one I know (including me) has damaged their coachbuilt from time to time,probably due to width and the height as well in my case. This can be an expensive and time consuming hassle with sourcing parts etc...With the van I can take it to any local repairer and get bodywork repaired, plus no damp problems. Yes I have been a bit evangelical since we changed back, simply out of relief I guess....... But I hope this does not mean advocates of van based camping cant discuss the topic with out being dragged back into this V that I guess you are right in that I never really liked the big box on wheels ...Now much happier in my choice thank you as I hope you are in yours........ as for tracker, I just wish he would leave me alone.......Simples:-D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Peter James Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-01-27 11:52 AM Then make a bed out of a sofa and try and get comfortable sleeping on a smelly old sofa he has been farting on all night, a true vision of loveliness!l... Better a smelly old mattress I have been farting on all night *-) I would have thought a sofa would be less likely to smell than a mattress in a made up bed, because the sofa is open to ventilation all day? But the collection of cushions doesn't look as comfortable as a one piece mattress in a fixed bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Well as some of you may have noticed I was thinking about going back to a coachbuilt, but after my test drive / viewing of a brand new one yesterday it all came flooding back why I originally changed over.The salesman kind of shot himself in the foot by saying PVC's are rapidly gaining in popularity so he was able to offer me "retail" on my PVC, which got me wondering from the off. I also don't think magazine reviewers are on our side either when we are researching a different van. I'll grant you a fixed double bed ( with memory foam Sir ) was an attraction, but I would have had to live with the rest of it, so for me PVC +1 CB -1 >:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Tracker - 2012-01-27 5:37 PM Funny how you, and often only you, see a different point of view to your own entering a discussion as 'destroying' a thread whereas what really destroys a thread is the sort of humourless antagonistic and eternally nasty tripe continually posted by you. Get a grip man - grow up - get a life - heaven knows I have reason enough to detest you - but I don't as I merely see you for what you are - a vindictive and pathetic old man stuck in a time warp of hatred - and I'm so glad that I am not the same. All you have to do if you don't agree is to POLITELY counter it with your own point of view without recourse to abuse and if you consider it not relevant POLITELY say so. However I suspect that as POLITE does not seem to be in your limited repertoire of suitable words I suppose I am in for a very long wait. I'm not rude or insulting to you unless you bark at me first and just as I respect your point of view so I expect you to respect mine. I note that you have not had a bite at anyone else who dares to disagree - so it is just me that is the target of your ongoing nastiness and that alone does your judgement and personality no credit whatsoever. Hear hear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Coming from a jaded old bigot like you Malcomn, I will take that as a compliment.... 1foot, what does this mean "PVC +1 CB -1" ( I get the first bit*-)) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brock Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 If I had some pots that needed breaking, I'd be tempted to invite Tracker and Judgemental over for dinner because my wife and I are on opposite sides of the PVC/coachbuilt debate. I'm sure the four of us would get on well and have a smashing time! When I retire in anything between now and two years, I want to downsize to a PVC. The rationale being it is narrower. I will be doing some of my motorhoming on my own whilst she is at work! I don't have a car. My wife wants to keep with an A-class but accepts that 6.5m is the practical limit for us. She doesn't drive the van but has a car. The Bentley Cerise is something we'd both consider although the Trafic is no longer cutting edge in the van market. I'd prefer a beefier van base and the same size/layout. An ih 220 may have some attraction if we can get beyond Ian Hartley's initials being everywhere. It may be our last purchase and would need to last at least 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-01-28 2:06 PM Coming from a jaded old bigot like you Malcomn, I will take that as a compliment.... 1foot, what does this mean "PVC +1 CB -1" ( I get the first bit*-)) My ham fisted way of saying for me at least having done the test drive and view of an admittedly "budget" coachbuilt at 37k yesterday I would sooner knock six inch nails in my feet than buy one, . I do get the bit about "lounging" in it though, as I doubt I'd drive far in it. I had thought it would be light years better than our 2002 Coachbuilt we traded a few years ago, sadly not, in very many respects it was far worse. No wonder the 2010 Swift Escape that I was originally looking at had been traded in, and the salesman confirmed my worse fears and shot himself in the foot at the same time, for a PVC. Getting back in and driving our IH PVC was like driving a limousine in comparison I agree the current IH owner has a thing about shouting his initials everywhere, but if that's the only shortcoming and if I could afford one they would be on my short list but I would not be so blinkered to rule out other brands. To the previous poster Brock Our current IH is 9 years old, but despite 50000 miles and a lot of living in it is as new. So ten years, dim problem and if looked after it will hold a lot of it's value. Before anyone comes gunning for me, all of this purely a personal observation. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike88 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 A few observations: Why can't people accept that a coachbuilt is bought because that is whhat they want? What's good for some is not for others. Why can't people accept that people buy panel vans for their own good reasons? Why do so many people think more space is necessary when they are on holidays and should be out of doors? Even if people like lounging around clearly in good weather they sit mainly out doors don't they? The penalty for buying a coachbuilt is driving inconvenience compared to a panel van but clearly a coachbuilt offers more real estate for your money. And if coachbuilts are anything like the caravans I have owned they will eventuall leak. Personally I wouldn't touch a coachbuilt with a bargepole as I don't want a hulking great white blob on my drive; I don't need the internal space; I like the way a panel van drives and I don't want something that will leak. But that is my choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Leake Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Not many coach builts leak and if they do it is usually around the window joints of or roof lights which can also occure in PVs. Many manufacturers are now moving to 10 year water ingress gaurentees which must mean the manufacturers are fairly confident in their product. If I were looking at a PV I would be looking to ensure it had a few extra coats of good paint to avoid rust problems in later live. I'm in the coach built camp but I can see the advantages of PVs in terms of driving and sitting inside with the big sliding door open of an evening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-01-28 9:05 A I certainly believe panel vans a better dual purpose vehicle. Every one I know (including me) has damaged their coachbuilt from time to time,probably due to width and the height as well in my case. as for tracker, I just wish he would leave me alone It was never in doubt that a panel van makes a better dual pyrpose vehicle than a coachbuilt - although at 6.36 metres long this duality might be more questionable than with a 5 metre van! I have been driving coachbuilts since 1978 and I have NEVER damaged the bodywork - perhaps I have been very very fortunate but I don't doubt that my experience is far from unique as I have no claim to be the world's best driver! I didn't attack you in the first place - so how can you say you wish I would leave you alone - but I did retaliate and I always will. All I did was post an alternative view on an existing thread - something which many others have done without a tirade of abuse being hurled at them? My thanks to Francis Graham for posting an independent assessment of this silly saga. He and I have had our differences in the past, and no doubt will again, but the mark of a man is not to let past events or perceptions cloud his judgement - especially when I get my grammar or spelling in a tangle! Let me repeat - I have no agenda for hounding Eddie other than to balance his personal views at times and that is not going to change. I also have no issue with him, or anyone else, POLITELY challenging my views and that too will not change! Simples! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 This started as being about new layouts. So' here's new! La Strada Fano. 6.3 metre RWD Renault Master based PVC, with similar layout to Adria Twin. Advantages appear to be RWD over FWD, shorter wheelbase compared to FWD version of same overall length - so tighter turning circle, and better front/rear weight balance due to longer rear overhang should mean less problems with front axle overload. Downside is taller overall and higher floor necessary to accommodate prop shaft to rear transaxle, and €50,000 price tag. Interior design etc apparently to usual La Strada standards. Currently available France/Germany but seemingly not yet UK. OT, but I really don't understand the objection to PVCs over 6 metres long. I can understand objections to vans over 6 metres long, but surely it matters nought what it is made of, it is it's length that is, or is not, a problem? Re PVC vs coachbuilt, folk do seem to be straining to defend the indefensible. :-) IMO, there is no "better", just different. The simple truth, in general, is that given a PVC and a coachbuilt of equivalent length, the latter tends to greater width, and this can make narrow streets and parking more difficult. Even if, like our van, the additional width is negligible (2070mm wide), the tendency for PVCs to narrow at roof level means their high level lockers are inevitably shallower, and so storage reduced, by comparison. Then, there is the inevitable impact of the van itself on the layout. The large sliding door reduces the usability of that side for furniture, and also dictates how the layout must function. By comparison, the designer of a coachbuilt can put the door, and the furniture, where he chooses and has only the wheel arches to accommodate. The PVC rear doors impose yet more restrictions, or are expensive to obviate, whereas the coachbuilt can have a rear access, but need not. In short, the coachbuilt has greater volume, greater flexibility of layout, and tends to cost less. It's greatest drawbacks are its relative fragility, its increased susceptibility to creaks and groans, and the fact that it is assembled from dissimilar materials brought together by hand without proper consideration for the good design of sealant joints - and so is vulnerable to leaks. The PVC, on the other hand, has rather less volume, less layout flexibility, has a more rigid and stronger bodyshell, a lower susceptibility to leaks (especially as it ages) and, if fitted with deadlocks, greater intrusion resistance, but tends to be more expensive. Both are based on light commercial vehicles which, though much more refined than was the case a few years back, remain rather less refined that their "motorhome" furnishings and fittings suggest will be the case. They just suit different markets, with some put off by the self same factors others consider advantageous. Auguring over which is "best" is, IMO, about as constructive as arguing that red is better than blue. :-D What I think we should perhaps be doing, in the interests of providing more generally useful information, is highlighting the strengths and weaknesses of the individual vehicles as we experience them. However, what I mean by that is that instead of bickering over such as whether fixed beds are better than convertible settees (each is by definition better than the other for those who prefer them :-)) we should focus on whether the bed is actually comfortable, and of good size. Ditto the heating. Does it heat efficiently and evenly, or does it leave cold patches? Are the compressor fridges in some vans noisy? Does that apparently attractive diesel fuelled heater flatten the battery too fast? Are the seats comfortable? Do the fabrics wear well? Is there adequate space for pots and pans? These sorts of things are surely where, with a bit of analysis, we can inform and advise others and even, with luck, influence the future direction design innovations take. Parting thought. Has anyone even been asked for a critique of their van by its manufacturer? "Dear Sir/Madam, now that you've owned our van for 12 months, we would be most grateful to hear from you of any features you especially value, and any you feel could be improved, or even are unnecessary." Flying pig? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nightrider Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-01-28 2:06 PM Coming from a jaded old bigot like you Malcomn, I will take that as a compliment.... 1foot, what does this mean "PVC +1 CB -1" ( I get the first bit*-)) Now then Eddie, steady on old bean, I may be oldish but I am not a jaded bigot, there are times when I have opened my trap and put my foot in it and have apologised and learned when my mistakes have been pointed out to me, what started out as an interesting thread ended up in name calling, not good enough is it? each and everyone of us have our thoughts on PVC VS CB, in point of fact I agree with some of the things you say regarding a PVC, I was actually going to PM you to ask you something about a PVC after something you posted after you bought your present van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Well been off to have a drive in a PVC this afternoon. My wife and I are keen on the concept but we are now not sure we could live with it. I did not even find it drove a lot better, it may if you drive like white van man but at more normal speeds no. It is nice that some seem to live outside but we find a mix of weathers, especially early or late in the year, it also gets dark early so a pleasant place to sit inside is important. Our current CB is comfortable for long trips, we have done ten hour stints in it, no problem and have never found the extra width a problem so jury is out for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Please feel free to ask away Malcolm,:-D the thread seems to be back on an even keel I responded in that way because you repeated his Holiness normal prejudices toward me......to wit that I am :D "A destroyer of threads (bit rich that one) /Humourless (ditto) Antagonistic/Eternally nasty/Need to get a grip man/Grow up/Get a life/ Reason enough to detest me/ I'm vindictive and pathetic old man/ In a time warp of hatred" All the above in one post! astonishing stufflol.... Plus I'm not yet 60 :-S Do you think his holiness has a "thing" about moi?lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 1footinthegrave - 2012-01-28 3:12 PM JudgeMental - 2012-01-28 2:06 PM Mike, what does this mean "PVC +1 CB -1" ( I get the first bit*-)) My ham fisted way of saying for me at least having done the test drive and view of an admittedly "budget" coachbuilt at 37k yesterday I would sooner knock six inch nails in my feet than buy one, . I do get the bit about "lounging" in it though, as I doubt I'd drive far in it. I had thought it would be light years better than our 2002 Coachbuilt we traded a few years ago, sadly not, in very many respects it was far worse. No wonder the 2010 Swift Escape that I was originally looking at had been traded in, and the salesman confirmed my worse fears and shot himself in the foot at the same time, for a PVC. Getting back in and driving our IH PVC was like driving a limousine in comparison I agree the current IH owner has a thing about shouting his initials everywhere, but if that's the only shortcoming and if I could afford one they would be on my short list but I would not be so blinkered to rule out other brands. To the previous poster Brock Our current IH is 9 years old, but despite 50000 miles and a lot of living in it is as new. So ten years, dim problem and if looked after it will hold a lot of it's value. Before anyone comes gunning for me, all of this purely a personal observation. ;-) A wise man indeed!lol And you are the reason I started this thread as the other had gone of topic a bit! Like you say vans, are becoming more popular here as many seeing the advantages......The longer ones simply offering a bit more choice in layout and answering some of the criticism, but as we are in London 6m makes more sense. German dealer I used last time, also sells coachbuilt, but he has mainly vans spread over two very large sites. Beauty of this is you can just choose one and not have to wait for a factory order. last time I was at Dusseldorf show the van stands were swamped ...it was hard to get near them. Yes the writing on the wall I think as you have just realised You can do everything you need in a panel van and make more use of it, so make more financial sense IMO. They CAN have (if you shop carefully) the same size tanks, big bed, same gas capacity, a decent fridge...all the facilities more or less of the large box on wheels. I do miss the underfloor heating and garage though, for our expensive e bikes., but good insurance and locks help with this worry. So what now Mike? stick with what you have or look around again? Rupert, I am surprised the test drive was not satisfactory as this is where vans tend to stick out with better handling etc....what engine did it have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Thanks Eddie, I was aware the thread was probably the result of my dilemma. We have at least given up on the CB route after yesterday. I will say to Rupert123, our first PVC was a Trigano, it was a real pain the proverbial, making the bed up was a nightmare, and you needed a stepladder to sit on the throne, amongst other shortcomings, we certainly could not live with it, hence the change to our current IH soon after buying it . Look we all know life's a compromise and we all strive to get it right, as I said before if a converter had got 100% it right we would only have a choice of one. Eddie was merely highlighting the additional choices open to folk interested in PVC,s and at least opened my eyes to options and companies I was not aware of, so thanks to him for that. ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 My work is done ....I'm oft for a drink :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordThornber Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 It goes without saying that choice is entirely down to the individual. Pays yer money etc etc applies as ever. However, and I've spoke on this many times, surely it comes down to usage. Speaking as a PVC owner (3 years) and then coachbuilt (almost 9 years) I hold a reasonably balanced view. I think. In the 3 years with the PVC, well at first of course it was wonderful, well it would be, brand new, all singing & dancing. BUT, we hopelessly hadn't bargained for our winter usage. There's no getting away from it, just not big enough for US on a winters night, feet up lounging. Enter the coachbuilt. Handling, MPG - couldn't care a toss. Room for winter lounging - spot on. Hence the reason for 8+ years versus 3 years ownership. Before anyone carps about "well you should have thought about winter use with the PVC", save your finger keyboard warrior, we were relatively new to motorhoming and were more interested in getting started than spending 3 years looking for a van (and possibly dying on the way like some have). Martyn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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