Colin Leake Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 I can't help wondering why PVCs seem to be so expensive compared to coach builds. One would have expected the exact opposite considering the amount of work and materials involved. Can anyone out there enlighten me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
malc d Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Colin Leake - 2012-01-28 8:18 PM I can't help wondering why PVCs seem to be so expensive compared to coach builds. One would have expected the exact opposite considering the amount of work and materials involved. Can anyone out there enlighten me? It's because only one or two people can work inside a PVC at a time, fitting in the furniture etc. to the existing bodywork. Coachbuilts start off with a platform, furniture put on platform, walls and roof put up last. A lot more people can work on them at a time. So PVCs take longer. :-| Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 one for Mike.. and the Possl/Globecar pvc construction video that I posted before (brilliant) http://tinyurl.com/843moc3 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-01-28 4:38 PM This started as being about new layouts. So' here's new! La Strada Fano. 6.3 metre RWD Renault Master based PVC, with similar layout to Adria Twin. Advantages appear to be RWD over FWD, shorter wheelbase compared to FWD version of same overall length - so tighter turning circle, and better front/rear weight balance due to longer rear overhang should mean less problems with front axle overload. Downside is taller overall and higher floor necessary to accommodate prop shaft to rear transaxle, and €50,000 price tag. Interior design etc apparently to usual La Strada standards. Currently available France/Germany but seemingly not yet UK. Whilst I fully agree with the rest of your post I do think you need to run tthings such as this past me before posting :D (wish we had a sticky out tongue smiley) The Fano will no doubt be built to the exelent La Strada standards, but it would appear to have some signifcant flaws. Whilst the overal lenght is 6.2m the internal lenght is little different than a 6m Twin. The internal width is 4" down on Twin which on this layout means a compromise, also the Renault slopes in at top unlike the more slabsided Fiat. The payload of base vehicle is down on fiat. I'm not convinced of a 450kg load with La Strada build. Whilst the axle caps are up on lighter twin, they are down compared to the 3l version(and my L4). I've not had chance to drive the new Renault yet but note Nick wasn't impressed, strange as I realy liked the old model, but I do note due to the odd shape/size of drive on the 'old' house the extra overhang and shorter wheelbase might make it harder to park, although in this case (unlike a CB) I think it's doable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-01-28 5:44 PM 1footinthegrave - 2012-01-28 3:12 PM JudgeMental - 2012-01-28 2:06 PM Mike, what does this mean "PVC +1 CB -1" ( I get the first bit*-)) My ham fisted way of saying for me at least having done the test drive and view of an admittedly "budget" coachbuilt at 37k yesterday I would sooner knock six inch nails in my feet than buy one, . I do get the bit about "lounging" in it though, as I doubt I'd drive far in it. I had thought it would be light years better than our 2002 Coachbuilt we traded a few years ago, sadly not, in very many respects it was far worse. No wonder the 2010 Swift Escape that I was originally looking at had been traded in, and the salesman confirmed my worse fears and shot himself in the foot at the same time, for a PVC. Getting back in and driving our IH PVC was like driving a limousine in comparison I agree the current IH owner has a thing about shouting his initials everywhere, but if that's the only shortcoming and if I could afford one they would be on my short list but I would not be so blinkered to rule out other brands. To the previous poster Brock Our current IH is 9 years old, but despite 50000 miles and a lot of living in it is as new. So ten years, dim problem and if looked after it will hold a lot of it's value. Before anyone comes gunning for me, all of this purely a personal observation. ;-) A wise man indeed!lol And you are the reason I started this thread as the other had gone of topic a bit! Rupert, I am surprised the test drive was not satisfactory as this is where vans tend to stick out with better handling etc....what engine did it have? It was not really that it was not satisfactory Eddie just that the overall impression was not good enough to forgo the room. It did drive a little better but again the differance was not in reality that great at the speeds we travel at. The van was not new and not the one that we like but it was worth a drive, it was two years old and had a Fiat 2.3 engine. Their were less rattles from the back but curiously the engine noise seemed louder. It has not put us of completely as the reasons we decided to look at a change still apply but like Mike it has made us think a bit more. One good thing I was offered only £3000 less for my van than we paid four years ago, admitedly they have gone up in price a fair bit since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Or one for all the boy racers who want to compete with White Van man at the traffic lights (?) http://www.mclarensportshomes.co.uk/shadow.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rupert123 Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 flicka - 2012-01-28 9:52 PM Or one for all the boy racers who want to compete with White Van man at the traffic lights (?) http://www.mclarensportshomes.co.uk/shadow.html Sold to me John, just need to talk the wife into a house remortgage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Who say's money don't make you happy, now that DOES tick all my boxes :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flicka Posted January 28, 2012 Share Posted January 28, 2012 Had another look at the Mclaren website & the only price I could find was:- Luxury Motorhome Conversions start from £21,500 plus VAT So with the Merc Sprinter staring just over £20k (excl VAT) I'm guessing the starting price is c£50k (incl VAT) Or maybe substantialy lower if they have the option of you suppling your own Used Van. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 colin - 2012-01-28 8:58 PM Brian Kirby - 2012-01-28 4:38 PM This started as being about new layouts. So' here's new! La Strada Fano. 6.3 metre RWD Renault Master based PVC, with similar layout to Adria Twin. Advantages appear to be RWD over FWD, shorter wheelbase compared to FWD version of same overall length - so tighter turning circle, and better front/rear weight balance due to longer rear overhang should mean less problems with front axle overload. Downside is taller overall and higher floor necessary to accommodate prop shaft to rear transaxle, and €50,000 price tag. Interior design etc apparently to usual La Strada standards. Currently available France/Germany but seemingly not yet UK. Whilst I fully agree with the rest of your post I do think you need to run tthings such as this past me before posting :D (wish we had a sticky out tongue smiley) The Fano will no doubt be built to the exelent La Strada standards, but it would appear to have some signifcant flaws. Whilst the overal lenght is 6.2m the internal lenght is little different than a 6m Twin. The internal width is 4" down on Twin which on this layout means a compromise, also the Renault slopes in at top unlike the more slabsided Fiat. The payload of base vehicle is down on fiat. I'm not convinced of a 450kg load with La Strada build. Whilst the axle caps are up on lighter twin, they are down compared to the 3l version(and my L4). I've not had chance to drive the new Renault yet but note Nick wasn't impressed, strange as I realy liked the old model, but I do note due to the odd shape/size of drive on the 'old' house the extra overhang and shorter wheelbase might make it harder to park, although in this case (unlike a CB) I think it's doable The Fano is a totally impractical van IMO, The new Renault is just the wrong shape for a camper........ this video shows how narrow it is: kitchen unit tiny, corridor unbelievably claustrophobic, as it is a tall and narrow van. Have never understood the La Strada pricing anyway, as I cannot see anything that justifies the very high cost there were a few early Renault based campers at Dusseldorf in 2010. the only one that had half a chance was a futuristic model with longitudinal rear bed, cant find the images at present..... but the rear transverse bed like the Adria etc...was simply very narrow just looked wrong, I posted pictures at the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tracker Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 In the mid 80's we had a Transit Holdsworth eleveating roof camper on which a turbocharger and an overdrive gearbox had been fitted to the 2.0 Ford 'pinto' engine. Oh boy - did that go - leaving many a white van man looking bemused - especially on hills! It was great fun but totally impractical for three people and a dog - and uncomfortable and we soon went back to a coachbuilt - but the memory of doing over 100 mph on the A30 Redruth Camborne by pass lingers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 malc d - 2012-01-28 8:26 PM Colin Leake - 2012-01-28 8:18 PM I can't help wondering why PVCs seem to be so expensive compared to coach builds. One would have expected the exact opposite considering the amount of work and materials involved. Can anyone out there enlighten me? It's because only one or two people can work inside a PVC at a time, fitting in the furniture etc. to the existing bodywork. Coachbuilts start off with a platform, furniture put on platform, walls and roof put up last. A lot more people can work on them at a time. So PVCs take longer. :-| Well, yes, and no. It isn't just the numbers who can work, but how efficiently they can work. Bear in mind that a certain amount of dismantling is required to prepare a PVC, and there are also holes to cut and cut edges to prime/paint (you hope!), insulation and floor and wall linings to install before any of the finishes or furnishings can go in. A coachbuilt, on the other hand, is almost the assembly of a flatpack, with pre-fabricated, often computer controlled and cut, walls and floor, pre-assembled modular furniture, pre moulded components etc. So, whereas more people can work around a coachbuilt, increasing the manhours per hour available, they work faster. Inside a PVC only one or two people can work at once, so diminishing the manhours per hour available, but they also work much slower so, in the final analysis the PVC will require more manhours to complete than the coachbuilt, and the cost will reflect this. It is however notable that the larger, higher volume, producers, have evolved moulded wall linings and pre-cut floor panels, plus pre-formed modular furniture so that, once the bodyshells are cut and prepared, the interiors go in much more quickly. This has brought down labour costs and prices and that, in conjunction with van bodyshells wide enough to take transverse beds, seems to have been what has widened the appeal of the PVC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 colin - 2012-01-28 8:58 PM...............................The internal width is 4" down on Twin which on this layout means a compromise, also the Renault slopes in at top unlike the more slabsided Fiat. The payload of base vehicle is down on fiat. I'm not convinced of a 450kg load with La Strada build. Whilst the axle caps are up on lighter twin, they are down compared to the 3l version(and my L4). I've not had chance to drive the new Renault yet but note Nick wasn't impressed, strange as I realy liked the old model, but I do note due to the odd shape/size of drive on the 'old' house the extra overhang and shorter wheelbase might make it harder to park, although in this case (unlike a CB) I think it's doable I think your comment on width is based on the old Master, not the new, and may be a consequence of measuring the width at floor level and not at mid-rail height where the bed tends to go. Bodyshell widths at their widest points, according to the technical data, are virtually identical (within about 5mm, I think, but certainly not 100mm as you suggest. However, I'm not doing a better than worse that comparison between the vans, just pointing out that La Strada is producing a Twin-like van on a RWD chassis which, IMO, has the advantages I cite. I would add that a shorter wheelbase will give a tighter turning circle compared to a long wheelbase, and that, also being devoid of FWD drive shafts, the 6.2 metre LWB RWD master has the same turning circle as the MWB FWD variant, so should make you drive easier to negotiate, rather than more difficult. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest 1footinthegrave Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The first CB I had was a short wheelbase, but with a very long overhang, the downside of a tighter turning circle was I managed to rip off the rear aluminium corner moulding, costing me £600 to have fixed as the extrusion was a continuous molding that extended from the bottom rear corner to the top front of the front roof. Another expensive lesson learnt in Motor homing. :'( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Brian...I have looked and looked again for photos and old Dusseldorf 2010 thread to try and get you to understand that Renault van fine for midgets and that is about it........Trust me, at show I did not even bother lying on the bed as it was way to short even for me at 5.10. I posted a photo looking through rear door with chap sitting on the edge of said bed...he looks like a giant. Just look at post a few back from this, it is a tall long van that narrows at the top. Whereas the Fiat is a square box, and nigh on perfect for a van conversion. I wish there was more choice in base vehicles but for now I dont think there is In fact even though main German manufacturers had mock ups in time for 2010 show (dont know about 2011) No Renault based vans appear on 2012 websites...surely this must tell you something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCC Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Campereve (part of Rapido) build similar transverse bed conversions on both the Renault and the Fiat. Both have the same bed length - 1.92m (just under 6ft 4" in old money). Admitedly 40mm shorter than similar beds in the Adria or Poessl/Globecar. The Renault sure is ugly though and is longer for a given load length. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-01-29 2:32 PM Brian...I have looked and looked again for photos and old Dusseldorf 2010 thread to try and get you to understand that Renault van fine for midgets and that is about it........Trust me, at show I did not even bother lying on the bed as it was way to short even for me at 5.10. I posted a photo looking through rear door with chap sitting on the edge of said bed...he looks like a giant. Just look at post a few back from this, it is a tall long van that narrows at the top. Whereas the Fiat is a square box, and nigh on perfect for a van conversion. I wish there was more choice in base vehicles but for now I dont think there is In fact even though main German manufacturers had mock ups in time for 2010 show (dont know about 2011) No Renault based vans appear on 2012 websites...surely this must tell you something. Yes Eddie, the Master has greater tumble home than the SEVEL, and yes, it has more of a taper at roof level, but its overall width, at waist level (which is where La Strada logically put the bed), is 2070mm which, co-incidentally, is the same figure as is quoted for the SEVEL vans. La Strada claim a bed of 200cm x 140 cm. Now, that may be a bit optimistic in a van only 2070 wide, though it allows 35mm for wall thickness, which is about what many coachbuilts claim, so is not impossible, and I'd guess the Germans will soon tell them if that is overstated! :-) I am not making any claims for this vehicle beyond that a) it is new, which is what your string was about, b) that it is RWD and not FWD, which has a number of advantages for traction, c) that it has some rear overhang, which reduces the tendency to overload the front axle, and d) that it has a tighter turning circle that either the FWD master, or the FWD SEVELs, of equivalent length. So, if any of those factors are important to folk, they might wish to investigate whether it may suit them as a motorhome, rather than merely writing it off because it is narrower at floor, and roof, levels. There are a number of conversions of Merc Sprinters, and of Transits, both of which are comfortably narrower than the SEVELs, and they sell, so they must suit some folk. I therefore think width at floor, and roof, levels may not be the only determinant of what makes a viable base vehicle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFrance Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Looking at the UK Renault configurator for this Renault LWB the price with a similar spec to our Adria Twin is £30,000 just for a van with aircon, cruise control etc. As we paid £35,000 for the Adria new, I would imagine that anything based on the Master will be very expensive. Certainly the furniture of the La Strada does not look anything special and no doubt it is priced in a different level to most Fiat based vans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Just look at La Strada video...corriidor is very narrow. All a bit academic as it looks like major manafacturers have decided not to build on it..This must be from poor response from the public at major shows. The early attempts I saw in 2010 were in no way a practical PVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-01-29 1:23 PM colin - 2012-01-28 8:58 PM...............................The internal width is 4" down on Twin which on this layout means a compromise, also the Renault slopes in at top unlike the more slabsided Fiat. The payload of base vehicle is down on fiat. I'm not convinced of a 450kg load with La Strada build. Whilst the axle caps are up on lighter twin, they are down compared to the 3l version(and my L4). I've not had chance to drive the new Renault yet but note Nick wasn't impressed, strange as I realy liked the old model, but I do note due to the odd shape/size of drive on the 'old' house the extra overhang and shorter wheelbase might make it harder to park, although in this case (unlike a CB) I think it's doable I think your comment on width is based on the old Master, not the new, and may be a consequence of measuring the width at floor level and not at mid-rail height where the bed tends to go. Bodyshell widths at their widest points, according to the technical data, are virtually identical (within about 5mm, I think, but certainly not 100mm as you suggest. However, I'm not doing a better than worse that comparison between the vans, just pointing out that La Strada is producing a Twin-like van on a RWD chassis which, IMO, has the advantages I cite. I would add that a shorter wheelbase will give a tighter turning circle compared to a long wheelbase, and that, also being devoid of FWD drive shafts, the 6.2 metre LWB RWD master has the same turning circle as the MWB FWD variant, so should make you drive easier to negotiate, rather than more difficult. :-) No my info is based on the very latest Renault info, and if you watch the utube link eddie posted you will see excactly what I'm talking about, yes they may be able to fit a transverse bed, but the whole rest of the conversion is compromised by the narrow internal width of Master. Now I did quote that my drive is odd, and because of this having a shorter wheel base on a long van actualy works against you, on my L4 Fiat I just get away with reversing in, in one go, on the Rimor coachbuilt (with shorter wheelbase but longer oa) we hired couple of years back absolutly no way would it fit where we wanted, with the Renault L3HD it would be a 'suck it and see' job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-01-29 7:43 PM Yes Eddie, the Master has greater tumble home than the SEVEL, and yes, it has more of a taper at roof level, but its overall width, at waist level (which is where La Strada logically put the bed), is 2070mm which, co-incidentally, is the same figure as is quoted for the SEVEL vans. We have been here before, yes you might be able to squeeze bed between framework, but as eddies link shows theres a lot more to making the Twin layout work and the Renault does not have suffient width, the all important diamension is between the frames and for a Renault(or Vauxhall) this is 1765mm compared to Fiats 1870mm. You might not know but Globecar tried this on the old model Renault and had a bulge fitted to side of van to accomdate bed, still didn't work. Here's the latest Morvano figures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colin Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 JamesFrance - 2012-01-29 8:25 PM Looking at the UK Renault configurator for this Renault LWB the price with a similar spec to our Adria Twin is £30,000 just for a van with aircon, cruise control etc. As we paid £35,000 for the Adria new, I would imagine that anything based on the Master will be very expensive. Certainly the furniture of the La Strada does not look anything special and no doubt it is priced in a different level to most Fiat based vans. Nick says Renault where selling to fleet buyers cheaper than Fiat at end of last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lennyhb Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 JudgeMental - 2012-01-29 9:00 PM Just look at La Strada video...corriidor is very narrow. All a bit academic as it looks like major manafacturers have decided not to build on it..This must be from poor response from the public at major shows. The early attempts I saw in 2010 were in no way a practical PVC Blimey he's only a little man in the video a normal size person would have to go in through the rear doors to get to bed. (lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Well, we shall have to see. Plainly there is resistance to the Master as a base. I assume the same people would have greater reservations regarding Sprinter and Transit, yet both are offered as PVCs, as was the old Master. La Stradas are all expensive, but they are very slick products. For those who value what they offer, they are good value. Look also at Nova and Regent vans, which also sell. They too, have narrow aisles cramped washrooms, and shortish beds, and they cost a packet more than the Fano. Besides, wasn't this about new, or alternative vans, rather than a SEVEL/Adria is best contest. No-one says you have to like, or prefer, the others, but they are there for those who may wish to consider them, whatever they eventually buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JudgeMental Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Brian Kirby - 2012-01-30 12:24 AM Well, we shall have to see. I have seen and experienced with my own eyes....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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