How old is my van?

[Guest peter]

How can I tell the age of my Hymer camp 544?. It is an import from Germany and it states on the v5 that it is 2000 but after asking Hymer to send me a manual in English, it bears no relationship to my vehicle. Even the engine size on the V5 is wrong. It states it as being a 2 Ltr but it is in actual fact a Fiat Ducato 2.5Ltr. 1994>2002 shape.

[Derek Uzzell]

If you provide a Fiat main dealer with the vehicle's VIN number then it should be straightforward to check on Fiat's database when the 'chassis' part of your Hymer was constructed. Alternatively, if any of the tyres are still original (the spare perhaps), then this can normally provide a near-enough guide to chassis age. With regard to when the conversion to a motorhome was carried out, the converter usually adds a build reference plate somewhere that uniquely defines each vehicle. If you can find this then Hymer(UK) may be able to help. (If you've got the documentation that must have accompanied the motorhome when it was imported to the UK then I would have thought age-related information should be included.)

[colin]

A quick way to get approx age of most vehciles is to remove ash tray and look for date stamp which is moulded in, will usualy have been made soon after.

[Mel B]

You can also tell by some of the other components on the van, we found date stamps on all sorts of bits and pieces of engine bay kit, stuff that you don't normally replace at service etc. We were then able to establish by simple deduction - ie the latest date on one of these bits and pieces - that our van had been built no earlier than 2 months before it's registration date.

[Guest peter]

Thanks for your replies guys. I have had a look under the bonnet etc and found loads of components with 93 stamped on them. The German manual has 94 printed on it. I really hope that this doesn't mean that my motorhome is 12Yrs old instead of the 6Yrs that the dealer put on the sales document. If it turns out to be this old, what reccompense do I have against the dealer? Surely he should have checked all this out before selling to me. Especially as it is a German import. Also the V5 is not correct as it states that it is a 2Ltr not 2.5. The VIN number is also slightly different on the V5. I bought this vehicle in good faith as a Year 2000 and am very perturbed by this discovery. I have had it about a month.

[Mel E]

I assume from what you say that you bought bthe van from one of the UK-based 'Grey Importers'. If that is the case, your contract is with them and you must first go back to them and ask for suitable recompense (either your money back or a suitable discount for the true age of the vehicle). Make it very clear to them that they have mis-described the vehicle and, under UK law, are therefore liable, even if they claim they did it in good faith (you may reasonably expect a dealer to make at least the checks described above). If they refuse, you have no other recourse except to a solicitor, and you should go to the Law Society for the names of local practices that specialise in contract disputes of your type. Let us know how you get on.

[Guest peter]

Thanks Mel I will do exactly that. Peter

[Vixter]

Hello Peter, Im sorry to hear of your problem, it must be very concerning for you. We have bought caravans from White Arches in the past and found them to be a long established and reputable company. Their motor home section is fairly new - about a year, and Im sure that they will do everything possible to rectify the problem as they have a good reputation to preserve. Good luck with your negotiations Vixter

[Guest peter]

Just an update on my problem. I have contacted a Fiat main dealer and given them the VIN number and they have confirmed my suspicions. It is definately a 1994 van. I have contacted White Arches and am taking it in on Thursday for them to see for themselves and to try and sort out the problem. One very good reason to buy locally, especially in this case. How the hell could the DVLA have been mislead so easilly? surely they must have to have corroborating evidence of a vehicles age and specification before registering it. Even the engine size is wrong, and there are mistakes with the VIN number. It just goes to show that this hobby is a minefield especially with imported vehicles. This should serve as a lesson to anyone thinking of buying an import. As it looks like a company like White Arches can also be fooled if they don't carry out the checks that I have.

[colin]

Thats supprizing, when you where questioning age I thought it might be one or two years older, this is not uncommon with a lot of cars and vans that have been sitting around in storage, we have a ford storage area couple of miles from us. I guess if they are a reputable company you should have no problems getting money back, hope it works out ok for you.

[Mel B]

Peter Don't forget to contact Trading Standards before you go back to the dealership for a bit of advice on what you can and can't say to them etc. Hopefully you'll get it all sorted out to your satisfaction but it doesn't hurt to be prepared and know your rights a bit more thoroughly. Also, I would've thought the DVLA themselves would be very interested to hear about this as well.

[Mel E]

White Arches is our local dealer and they have a good reputation. Also they are not, as far as I know, a 'grey importer' so I guess they got this one in part-ex and didn't check it thoroughly enough. It may well be a stolen vehicle in which the coach built section has been remounted on a different chassis, of course. My suggestion would be to give the van back to them in return for a full refund, not just of the purchase price but also of any costs that you have reasonably incurred in sorting this out. I am sure they will co-operate and, hopefully, have a 'van in stock that you want, as a replacement.l

[Guest peter]

I know White Arches is not an importer. They did indeed take it in. It was brought in from Germany in 2000 and registered as a 2000 van. So the villain is this guy. I contacted the guy who sold it originally as his stamp was clearly visible on the first page of the opperating instructions book. You are right that they should have checked, it took me 5 minutes to send an email and got reply next day. They still think it's worth what I paid so will probably be getting it back. I must say that I find their lack of concern for the customers point of view very disturbing. At the end of the day, I am the one that has had all the aggro and wasted time and money, just because they didn't excercise due dilligence when purchasing. Christ! the signs were jumping out at them. The V5 had errors, it stated engine as 2000cc when there are large 2.5TD badges on the wings. The old M.O.T had correct VIN No but new one has number from the V5, so the tester has screwed up by not checking the computor readout against the vehicle in front of him. The manual has 1994 on the inside cover. Just how many clues do these so called experts need to spot a potential problem vehicle. They are just unfortunate that they sold it to the wrong guy, as 99.9% of buyers wouldn't have smelled a rat. I am in no way accusing the dealer of deliberately missleading. Just possibly proffessionall ineptitude. The problem is that these errors are paid for by their customers which it totally unacceptable. Watch this space.

[Mel E]

Peter, I am a tad confused by your latest email. Do I understand that you have been in touch with the person who sold the van (in part-ex) to White Arches? That's useful evidence from him if that is the case. However, in law your contract is with White Arches and it is for them to sort out, as I'm sure you know. It really doesn't matter what they think it's worth - that is totally irrelevant. The fact is that they have clearly misled you as to what they were selling and are thus liable. Trading standards would take them apart. The DVLA are also at fault here. If the van was imported in 2000 as a new vehicle then the importer would have had to pay VAT at 17.5%. So I'm guessing that it was imported as a used vehicle, in which case the DVLA are supposed to obtain evidence of the date of first registration abroad, so that they can issue a licence plate from the appropriate series (eg, for a vehicle registered abroad in Oct 1997, they would issue an R plate). They have clearly failed completely here, and a letter to the DVLA would be worthwhile in providing further evidence should you need it. As a Government Agency they are obliged to reply to your letter and investigate what went wrong here.

[Mel E]

Peter, I am a tad confused by your latest email. Do I understand that you have been in touch with the person who sold the van (in part-ex) to White Arches? That's useful evidence from him if that is the case. However, in law your contract is with White Arches and it is for them to sort out, as I'm sure you know. It really doesn't matter what they think it's worth - that is totally irrelevant. The fact is that they have clearly misled you as to what they were selling and are thus liable. Trading standards would take them apart. The DVLA are also at fault here. If the van was imported in 2000 as a new vehicle then the importer would have had to pay VAT at 17.5%. So I'm guessing that it was imported as a used vehicle, in which case the DVLA are supposed to obtain evidence of the date of first registration abroad, so that they can issue a licence plate from the appropriate series (eg, for a vehicle registered abroad in Oct 1997, they would issue an R plate). They have clearly failed completely here, and a letter to the DVLA would be worthwhile in providing further evidence should you need it. As a Government Agency they are obliged to reply to your letter and investigate what went wrong here.

[Mel B]

Mel E Have you been at the gin again or have you got hiccups?!

[Derek Uzzell]

Peter: After 6 years it may be difficult/impossible for the DVLA to establish how an imported 1994 motorhome came to be UK-registered as a 2000 model, but that's no reason why (as Mel E suggests) you shouldn't demand that they try. Generally, it makes sense for anyone importing a motorhome (or buying an imported motorhome) to check that the information on the V5 document matches the vehicle. It's also worth confirming with the base-vehicle manufacturer (via the motorhome's VIN number) when the 'chassis' rolled off the factory line. Many UK-registered imports are not UK road-legal where lights and speedometer scales are concerned. I understand that these are not matters that cause MOT-test failure so, if adaptations are not made to lights/speedo at first UK-registration, they are likely to remain unmodified indefinitely. (Interesting that your vendor apparently believes that the street value of a 1994 Hymer is the same as that of a 2000 one. I'd like to meet a buyer (private or trade) who would think the same!)

[Guest peter]

I didn't contact the guy who imported it, I contacted the German dealer who originally sold the van in 1994. Who confirmed it's age. Negotiations have now broken down, as the dealer offered me an insulting £600 off the van to keep it. You can imagine my reply. A £100 a year depreciation, as it is 6Yrs older than stated. I don't think so. If anyone knows of a van with this depreciation I will have one now :-> I have given them the chance to rectify this situation, but they have failed big time.I can no longer comment on this, for obvious reasons but will let you know the outcome.

[Mel E]

Peter, Sorry you're having all these problems - hope your resolve them quickly and Trading Standards plus a good lawyer should help. Mel B - not the gin, just the site going so incredibly slowly I thought I'd not hit the button proerly. ALL - I'd widen Derek's recommendations to say that anyone buying a used vehicle from whatever original or current source really should check the vehicle against the V5 Reg Doc - and also have an HPI check done.

[Guest peter]

Thanks for all your support and reccomendations guys. As you can imagine as this is our first van we are well and truly shocked to find that this industry seems to be populated by people that wouldn't be out of place on Del Boys car lot. It also shocked me to find that having visited the DVLA's website, that they only carry out checks on about 10% of secondhand imported vehicles. That means that if someone wants to commit fraud , they have a 90% chance of getting away with it. Now that is very worrying.

[Vixter]

Hello Peter, we have been watching your posts with interest and a great deal of sympathy, as I imagine many others have done as well. A motor home is a big investment and we all hope to get the dream machine - however yours seems to be a nightmare. I think the TSA will be your best ally here and they may also take up the cudgells on your behalf with the DVLA - they should be able to clearly identify and verify the age of the vehicle. What's the point of registering otherwise? If you like the motorhome ( regardless of age ) perhaps a negotiated settlement along the lines of extended warranty or subsidised servicing may be a solution. Best of luck in your negotiations Vixter

[docted]

Peter I have watched this thread grow from the start. I think that you are now at the stage where you have to go to Trading Standards or Citizens Advice and draft with their help a letter to the dealer asking for your money back. Nothing the dealer is going to say or do now will leave you feeling any better as regards what appears to be an outright con. You were sold something which is not what is was advertised as an offence under the Trading Standards Act, in the circumstances you are entitled to full restitution. It may be worth your while to check Home and contents Insurance policies to see if you have legal cover which would enable you to pursue the dealer through the courts if necessary. Good luck Docted

[colin]

If I was in your position I think I would want a full refund from dealer as the van is not as per V5 and that may cause you problems in future. As to compensation, well it would be nice but I wouldn't reject a refund just because there was no compensation, you have had some use of van so think of this as compensation. As for Trading Standards, you may need to know exactly what you want before contacting them, then push them in this direction. I have had two cases with Trading Standards, in first case I had good officer on case and with his help went on mini campain that helped change a British Standard ( it was being reviewed at time). In second case officer had no concept of what was needed, I ended up going to small claims court to get compensation. I am assuming that the sums involved are over the limit for Small Claims, if you have to use lawers and go to court it will cause no end of stress and from personal experience I can tell you not to expect justice from a court in what you may think is a open and shut case.

[colin]

P.S. You may not take my advice and sue the suppliers for every penny you can get, I am sure from the number of views on this thread there are a lot of people who will be interested in the outcome and decide who to risk dealing with in the future.

[Guest peter]

I feel a right pratt now. After singing the praises of White Arches in another thread. Rose tinted glasses and all that, until I had a rude reality check. Once bitten twice shy. In future I will view motorhome dealers in the same light that I would anything Arthur Daley was selling, i.e with great caution and check out all paperwork and everything else, and also get an independent assessment.