towing

[bjphillips]

I want to buy a small car to tow with my m/h soon but dont like A frames & a light trailer could have its problems too as far as space is concerned when loading up.On the way back from Lincs last week a saloon car towing another with the front wheels up riding on a 2 wheel axle & the rear on the ground passed me at conciderable speed.Ive spent quite a bit of time searching the internet for info or suppliers for these unless it was a 1 off creation by that driver. I reckon it could be a better option than a 4 wheel trailer or an A frame if legal.Anybody know anything about them ? (?)

[Clive]

I believe that what you saw was less legal than an "A" frame. This front suspended method of conveyance is called a "dolly" and is only permitted to be used under controlled conditions by recovery people. That's my understanding. Please others correct me if I am wrong on this one.

[Mel E]

Clive is correct. The law is a tad grey about A-frame towing (it doesn't actually ban it but doesn't say it's legal either). But towing dollies of the sort you saw are permitted in law only for vehicle recovery purposes and are subject to very stringent speed limits (40 mph max on motorways for example!). Anyone who uses the method in any other circumstances is definitely breaking the law. You should use the search function on this forum (try 'A-frame for starters) to see the vast previous correspondence on the subject. I used to tow on an A-frame, but have given up. I found it troublesome (rarely worked properly) and while I never did get stopped on the Continent, was always expecting to - hardly a relaxing way to travel on holiday. If you MUST have a car, put it on a 4-wheel trailer. It's the safest method, is totally legal anywhere in Europe and, with a well designed trailer, should be trouble-free.

[bjphillips]

I spoke to a chap towing a small Fiat behind his M/H on my way a few days ago,It was on an A frame with no additional brakes.He told me that brakes werent required because it was just under 750kl.I checked this on the internet after to find that it was completely illegal because as I see it , its the GVW weight that has to be concidered & with this particular vehicle is about 300+ kl on the unladen weight or kerbside weightIt did mention that there is only 1 car that can be legally towed without brakes & thats the little Aixa of which the GVW is under 750kl !!!!!!!!

[olley]

This subject has been discussed endlessly on the net, the results where that no "A" frame is legal. If the vehicles GVW is under 750kg its does not need brakes, correct but if it has brakes they must work. The trailer, this is what the "A" framed car is classed as, must have auto-reversing brakes. non do You must be able to reverse the trailer without leaving the towing vehicle, not possible with an "A" framed car. Electrical braking systems like the brake buddy are totally illegal, the braking system must be mechanical. Having said all that as far as I am aware nobody has ever been prosecuted for towing with an "A" frame Olley

[Mel B]

What would happen if there was an accident involving an A-frame towed car? I bet the insurance company would have a field day tying you in knots whilst they were trying to get out of paying up! I would suggest contacting your insurer first and making sure that they are happy for you to tow in this way, on out policy we are covered for towing but I'd certainly check out the true meaning of this before I towed anything in a way that wasn't totally 'normal'. In my opinion, I don't think towing cars on an A-frame actually does them any favours at all, and I'm not just talking about the ones that manufacturers state shouldn't be towed in this way. It must put all sorts of strain on parts that were never meant to be strained in that way. Also, how honest are people about how many miles theri towed vehicles have actually done when they come to sell them on? Some disengage the speedo cable so the towed mileage doesn't 'count'. Very naughty as the mechianicals such as wheel bearings etc, have had the wear. It would be interesting to know what problems people have with their little towed cars in this respect compared to a car of the same age/true mileage of a non-towed one.

[Rowan Lee]

We tow a Honda Jazz on an A frame. It works a treat. The dealer is aware of this and when it went in for service, we gave him a guess as to what the additional towed mileage was (sad people that we are, we keep a note of it). We asked them to pay special attention to the relevant moving parts for our own safety and peace of mind. Yes, they probably will get worn out more quickly but so what? We will have them repaired/replaced and it will be well worth it. The mileometer does not clock up the towed miles as it is a digital one. By the time we come to sell the car, I don't suppose the extra mileage will make much difference to the value, but we WILL declare it. We have written to both insurers and have replies from them in writing that they will cover us for towing the car in this way. However, we do intend to change insurers at the next renewal for the car so that both vehicles are covered by the same insurer. That way, we will not have two companies each saying it is the other's responsibility. Not all A-framers are irresponsible, if indeed any. We researched it, read all the pro's and con's, almost bought a trailer, and finally decided the A-frame was what suited us best. It is not illegal. It may not be legal, but the best advice available seems to be the DVLA view that they believe it to be legal but until this has been tested in a court of law, who knows? Again, we have considered long and hard and taken the view that we can live with this. It may not be OK for others, but it is OK for us. Olly's point about reversing is a concern .....

[david lloyd]

Hi Rowan I'm with you on this. Having also researched as much information as possible before making the decision to tow our Yaris on an A-frame I am of the opinion that towing with an A-frame is not illegal. However, not all A-frames are the same and some are definitely illegal. In addition, towing with an A-frame can become illegal if either the equipment or the operation of it does not comply with the relevent legislation (just the same as a car, motorhome etc). Best regards, david

[olley]

Hi just like to point out that the DVLA only say that providing the "A" framed vehicle meets all the C&U reg's, then in their opinion its legal. The words here are "Providing" and "opinion". It does not satisfy the C&U reg's for reasons that I gave above, therefore its illegal, and the DVLA don't make the law they only interpret it. In case people think I have an axe to grind here, next year we will be getting a newer toad and fitting it with an “A” frame, as I believe its the easest way to tow a car. I know it will be illegal and if by any chance I get done, you will not hear a grizzle from me. Well maybe a little one (lol) Olley

[lunartraveller]

Hi I wanted to tow with a dolly but contacted my insurer first, they replied that although it would not invalidate the M/Home insurance there would be no third pary insurance cover as there would be if I waas to use an A frame (braked) or a trailer. I do sometimes tow with an A frame with no problems. Geoff

[euroanchor]

I've only just joined this forum today and am browsing my way through the posts, in relation to the legalities of A frames,please check that your licence actually covers you to tow a trailer of any kind. A lot of people are being caught out on this, especially when you get close to the maximum permitted weights, eg, if you passed your test after 97, then you are restricted to 3500kg ,not 7500kgs. Sorry if this has been brought up before but you cant be warned enough times IMHO

[Mel B]

Hi euroanchor, welcome aboard! Good point about your licence and towing, it's easy for us more mature people who have had our licences for a while to forget the poor unfortunates who have restrictions. Mel B (ps mature means over 40!).

[southwind]

[QUOTE]Rowan Lee - 2006-05-24 6:16 PM We tow a Honda Jazz on an A frame. It works a treat. [/QUOTE] I used to be totally anti, but now I couldn't agree more! Rowan is spot on! We have a smart Pulse and when towing it on the A-frame you don't know it's there (except you can (and should!) keep an eye on it via the reversing camera). We have even managed to do 'minor' reversing with it when boarding the Norfolkline ferry in Dunkirk (OK this meant one of us alighting the Rv and whipping out the cotter pin in the brake cable connection), but it worked OK. As for 'doing it in Europe' - I tow regularly through France and Spain - no problems, in fact the Guardia Civil Trafico in Spain pull alongside smiling, waving and giving us the thumbs up! I think B-) As Olley says don't listen to anyone trying to flog you an A Frame without braking connections - whether it's 750kg or less if it has brakes they must work. We got ours from Hedleys trailers in Durham - took car in 4pm on Tues - picked it up lunchtime Weds. Since then it has been Durham to Costa del Sol twice with extensive detours round France and Belgium, and it still looks and works like new. We did check out the various trailers for the smart, but finally decided that it was just another piece of kit to stow - as well as being twice the cost! I chain the A to the tow bracket assembly on the motorhome when not in use and kick it underneath to keep dry - ideal.

[caradoc]

We finally decided that it wasn't worth arguing the toss with aggressive / arrogant Euro / Spanish / French police in a language other than English, and bought a proper, decently engineered trailer for our Smart Passion for us to tow the Smart behind our Autosleeper Ravenna. That way we are legal and safe in the UK and Europe, no need to be on tenterhooks waiting for some foreign bully to pull us over and harass us (bad enough when the local bullies do, but at least they speak English!) As the Smart and its trailer are not very long, I'm not anticipating problems, but haven't had a trial yet - taking the combo out second week in June up the Welsh coast from Gowerton to Coed-Y-Llwyn spending a few days at each CC site. Freshwater East and Lleither Meadow being the other sites we are visiting between the two. Our driveway is a nightmare being a shared driveway on a steep slope, so weve decided to hitch up trailer to Ravenna and drive down to Tesco carpark so we can load up the Smart safely once driven there by other half! Any advice and tips from seasoned motorhomers / towers of cars behind m/homes would be welcomed! Laurie (lol)

[peterandvicky]

I have read smewhere that Smart cars should not be towd as it can damage the gearbox. Perhaps someone can check their handbook!

[enodreven]

Hi, Just a couple of questions ? or information On another site there was some questions being raised over the insurance cover, I think the situations was that while it was on an "A" frame the vehicle would be covered by its own insurance, but when it was on a trailor you needed to have goods in transit insurance to cover it ? does anyone know if these statements are correct ?? The other point is has anyone looked at the financial position regarding the cost of purchase, insurance, depreciation etc plus extra fuel costs against hiring when you reach your desitainions ??

[southwind]

[QUOTE]peterandvicky - 2006-05-30 8:40 AM I have read smewhere that Smart cars should not be towd as it can damage the gearbox. Perhaps someone can check their handbook![/QUOTE] This may be true of the Passion models with the auto or tiptronic box, but the Pulse/Pure with a pre-selector box/shift are fine, and nothing in the MCC handbook refutes this. This has also been confirmed by MCC and is well published on a variety of forums around the web, plus, we have towed ours a good few thousand miles, trouble free - (Unlike some people we heard of who accidentally 'dragged' theirs 10 miles whilst reverse! gear was engaged!) Like any form of towing - check everthing - then get the wife or someone else to do it again - then stop and check again after the 1st few miles. We purposefully chose the cheaper earlier Smart for two reasons: 1) it was LHD (which we wanted for the continent) 2) it was cheaper (being LHD in the UK, I suppose)

[southwind]

[QUOTE]enodreven - 2006-05-30 11:15 AM Hi, Just a couple of questions ? or information [/QUOTE] The RV is insured via Bakers of Cheltenham (Norwich Union). They told me the following: "The Smart is covered whilst being towed or on a trailer behind the RV as follows: The RV insurance policy covers accident, damage, injury or death caused by the towed vehicle whilst attached to the RV, or in the event of becoming detached and causing injury, accident, damage or death. Provided the Smart carries comprehensive insurance, any damage occurred to it would be covered under that insurance, and NOT under the policy for the RV" I insure the Smart via the NFU. I told them specifically my intentions regarding the A frame. They did not have any objections, and they confirm the comments/advice received from Bakers. I think the watchword with insurance is to go to specialist brokers, or in the case of the NFU a mutual company that still know how to treat customers. As far as economies go I would say that unless the towed vehicle had a dual use (second car for spouse or other member of the family), and you only needed a car for a few weeks a year for holidays, hiring would win hands down. (as it would for most London commuters no doubt). If like us, you set off and spend a couple of months travelling to a destination, visiting friends and relatives on route, and another couple months coming back, repeating the process, (after having spent a couple of months at our final destination), then taking a second car with us is certainly more convenient, and possibly more economical, as it doubles as my wife's car as well as allowing us to reach places that even a VW devon would struggle to get to!

[southwind]

[QUOTE]caradoc - 2006-05-30 12:32 AM We finally decided that it wasn't worth arguing the toss with aggressive / arrogant Euro / Spanish / French police in a language other than English, (lol)[/QUOTE] Hi Laurie - I certainly empathise with your feelings. Despite the fact that both my wife and I speak reasonable Spanish, I was totally against looking for trouble wirh La Guardia - or Gendarmerie. (They do carry guns after all). We were on the verge of buying a Brian James Bantam, when I was finally persuaded by a friend who motorhomes down to the Costa Blanca every winter without problem. I went through all the arguments with him about stroppy foreign coppers, who have the authority to impound both vehicles, ("Where do you live then?"), etc., etc. In the end, after all considerations, I decided he had a point, and it seemed to work fine for him. Now, a couple of years of "A Framing" on, and a number of continental (UK/France/Belgium/Spain and back), trips later, I agree with him fully. Saying all that, you must do what you feel comfortable with, and OK the Tesco car park sounds fine as a loading point (they are one of the few without height barriers, though I believe they do expect you to do a bit of shopping) Best advice when towing - take it slowly to start with. Assuming all other things are equal - (car strapped down, nose weight OK, tyres at correct pressure, breakaway cable in place,. . . . etc., etc., etc.), most accidents or problems with towing are caused by doing things too quickly, including reversing. Have a great time and don't let those continental camp-sites charge you too much for storing all your 'wheels' ;-)