French Safety Cameras: New Legislation for 2012

[Losos]

Patricia - 2012-02-13 2:58 PM and found that you can use several types of card which it says is for downloading further maps.

 

Likewise I had no idea that there was a tiny 'slot' on the side and only found out when I needed to add Eastern Europe maps, I ordered it over the phone and when it arrived I had to ring the supplier to ask where to put it lol. Garmin have confirmed I now have East and West Europe on the device memory but they didn't say whether I can remove the SD card so I think I'll leave it there for time being.

 

[Derek Uzzell]

donna miller - 2012-02-13 12:58 PM

 

Slightly off topic, but where do you stand if you use one of the many atlas's and maps that now show fixed and mobile camera locations? :-S

 

See last two postings here:

 

http://www.outandaboutlive.co.uk/forums/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=26226&posts=7

[Derek Uzzell]

Losos - 2012-02-13 4:24 PM

Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-12 1:21 PMI'm tempted to delete or rename it to see if that kills French camera alerts. However, it's a .gpi file and I'm wary that doing this would mess up the system. I'll try to ask Garmin, though their inquiry form and my iMac don't seem to get on very well.

 

Derek, in case you iMac and their enquiry form are still not co-operating I thought you might like to see a response I got from Garmin this afternoon:-

Quote "It is true that a new law has passed in France banning use of safety
camera alerts. The map update would not have removed this data. You can
however remove this data from your device using the steps below:
1.      Connect the device to the PC
2.      Click Start/ Windows (Ignore on Mac)
3.      Click Computer/ MyComputer (Ignore on Mac)
4.      Open the Garmin Disk Drive
5.      Open the Garmin Folder
6.      Open the POI Folder
7.      Delete the France Cyclops File." Unquote

 

Right now I'm still so happy at getting my maps updated I don't want to play around with the device anymore!!! I'll keep an eye on your posts (here and on other threads) and maybe do it latter.

Thanks for that information.I managed to contact Garmin via a personal e-mail address I'd been hanging on to since a map-updating problem (my own fault) I'd had last year and the reply that came yesterday was very similar to the one you received. I suspect that there must have been previous doubts from Garmin sat-nav owners regarding whether merely disabling the safety-camera alerts feature does make the device comply with the revised French regulations, and this is now Garmin's stock answer to such enquiries. Anyway, I've deleted the FranceCyclops file from the POI folder as Garmin suggests and my sat-nav seems to be unaffected.Realistically, the latest French safety-camera regulations must be considered unpoliceable when it comes to sat-navs. If my Garmin device's touch-screen is used to look at its software licensing information for the Cyclops files, unsurprisingly, there's still an entry there for the French file, despite the file itself having been removed. If one wanted to nit-pick, rather than remove the French file from the POI folder I could have renamed it and/or moved it to another folder. This would have prevented safety-camera alerts being provided in France, but the data would still be present on the sat-nav and renaming the file back to its original name and/or moving it back to the POI folder, would once again have provided French safety-camera alerts. It would be possible to check in France that, with the sat-nav's safety-camera option enabled, no alerts were being provided when the vehicle approached a known safety-camera location, but it would be ridiculous to expect French police to do that, or to be hooking up a lap-top to a sat-nav to try to check the device's file structure.

[Patricia]

I was going to test my TomTom last night but snow coming down fast, and still coming, so will have to delay for a while.

[donna miller]

Thanks Derek.

 

 

 

Whoops fast fingers, I put a small d.

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

My take on it is this, the French police are like UK police, conspicuous in their absence, but worst case scenario, you get stopped, your satnav is set up in the English language, then the next question, considering the all the different satnavs on the market, and the hoops you have to go through to get to the settings, and an excellent command of the English language on the part of the French copper to check it, I would think you would have more chance of winning the lottery than getting done. Lets face it you would have more than enough time to sling it in a door pocket in any event if you got a blue light. We did in fact go through a Police check in some small village where they were stopping everyone, as soon as they saw our UK number plate they waved us through with a smile, so I'll worry about something else. ;-)

[Patricia]

I see your point but the thing is that a fine of €1500 must be tempting for the police to collect and it would not take them long, perhaps about 30 seconds, to just change the language to French!

[Guest 1footinthegrave]

Patricia - 2012-02-14 2:24 PM

 

I see your point but the thing is that a fine of €1500 must be tempting for the police to collect and it would not take them long, perhaps about 30 seconds, to just change the language to French!

 

Ah well if they are on commission that would tempt me as well, or a chance to go straight in their back pockets. I wonder if that's how it works, perhaps an idea for UK forces to adopt maybe we'd get some mobile phone users enforcement.

[Derek Uzzell]

As far as I'm concerned it's never been a question of how the latest French 'speed camera' legislation might be policed or side-stepped, but always whether the advice from the manufacturers of the various GPS-type of devices that have historically provided warnings of speed-camera locations in France could be trusted regarding gaining regulation-compliancy.

My inquiry to Garmin was as follows:  

FRENCH SAFETY CAMERAS

 

The following Garmin UK webpage carries advice about the French January 2012 revised legislation regarding ‘safety cameras’:

 

http://www.garmin.com/uk/extras-camera-alerts/#france

 

I own a nuvi 1340 sat-nav device bought in mid-2011 and I drive regularly throughout France.

 

To allow compliance with the latest French safety-camera regulations when driving in France, the Garmin webpage offers me two options.

 

Option 1:  Disable my nuvi 1340’s Garmin Safety Camera Alerts feature before driving within France.

 

Option 2:  Download an upgrade that overrides the original France alerts database, providing ‘Danger Zones’ information instead.

 

I have read the French decree, and its wording clearly (in my opinion) indicates that having any in-vehicle device that is capable of identifying the location of safety cameras is now illegal. (This prohibition is detailed in paragraph A1 on the Garmin UK link I referred to above.)

 

Garmin’s Option 1 appears to contradict the French decree. Disabling my nuvi 1340’s Garmin Safety Camera Alerts feature is a temporary measure. The device retains the capability of identifying the location of safety cameras and, in seconds, the Garmin Safety Camera Alerts feature can be re-activated.

 

To fully comply with the French decree would seem to require my nuvi 1340 to be incapable of identifying French safety camera locations accurately, which implies permanent removal of my device’s current French-camera identification capability (an option that Garmin does not seem to offer), or choosing Option 2.

 

Option 2 has no great attraction for me as the ‘Danger Zones’ imprecision is likely to produce warnings that will be more irritating than useful. I would far rather choose Garmin’s Option 1 provided that it results in legal compliance.

 

The Garmin webpage’s Q10/A10 paragraphs place all responsibility for device usage/compliance regarding French safety-camera alerts on the vehicle driver. This is not unreasonable, but only if Garmin’s advice to drivers regarding usage/compliance is correct.

 

I need to be 100% sure that, if I follow Garmin’s Option 1 advice and disable my nuvi 1340’s Garmin Safety Camera Alerts feature before/while I am driving in France, that this action alone allows me to comply with French law. I would hope that Garmin will have confirmed with the relevant French authorities that ‘disablement’ will be sufficient for compliance, but I need to be certain.

 

A simple Yes-or-No question then…

 

Please will you confirm that the advice in paragraph A2 of Garmin’s webpage is correct? That it is certain, having disabled the Garmin Safety Camera Alerts feature on my nuvi 1340 before I arrive in France, that this action alone will ensure that (as para A2 says) my “device will be ready for use in France in adherence with the new legal restrictions”.

 

It's worth noting perhaps that, although I asked in my last paragraph for a Yes-or-No answer regarding the 'legality' of temporarily disabling the Alerts feature, I was not given one. Instead I was told how to delete the file that carries the French speed-camera locations data.

As I said earlier, even if someone is fully familiar with how a Garmin sat-nav operates, there's no certain way of establishing whether the device can or can't provide 'illegal' French speed-camera warnings. Even if you viewed the sat-nav's file structure via a lap-top, it's still far from certain that 'legality' or 'illegality' could easily be established.

It would appear that the French authorities sought to impose similar robust prohibitions to Switzerland's (See link below) but then got cold feet and created the present regulations that allow imprecise 'Danger Zone' warnings, but also include ambiguous wording regarding a device's capability, usage or ownership.

http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/09/switzerland-bans-some-gps-devices-for-speed-camera-warnings/

[Losos]

Derek Uzzell - 2012-02-14 7:53 PMIt's worth noting perhaps that, although I asked in my last paragraph for a Yes-or-No answer regarding the 'legality' of temporarily disabling the Alerts feature, I was not given one. Instead I was told how to delete the file that carries the French speed-camera locations data.

 

That's exactly what I was told. Could it be that by transmitting that information to users the manufacturer is effectively absolving themselves from any legal claims. Could it also be that the French lawmakers have agreed with manufacturers that they can do this. Derek, I admire you're persistance in trying to get a definitive answer, personally I have seen so many big companies tie their customers up in knots that I have long ago given up trying to get a sensible answer which their legal departments won't allow to be given!!!!!

 

[mike 202]

So, following the threads, I have now disabled camera alerts on my Nuvii 650FM and also disabled the bluetooth.Downloads from garmin are not available because the 650 is too old.

A comment on the forum suggested that the french police had equipment to detect bluetooth on satnav's. How they differentiate between Mobile phones and satnavs is beyond me.So presumably the French police cannot pick up my Satnav using equipment to detect Bluetooth (if switched off) and the disabling of the POI camera alerts completes the picture. I still intend to mount the Satnav by the radio and not on the screen with the screenmount, so it cannot be seen from the road. If waved to a stop by the french police I still intend to place caution first and put the Satnav away even though I have disabled the POI camera info. Problem as I see it is that I can restore the Camera POI's at any time.

 

Just a thought ----- Some posh mobile phones and I pad thingys have satnav on them, Soooo can you get done with one of these Guchii devices ????

 

Utterly confused and travelling through France at the end of March ------Mike

[Patricia]

mike 202 - 2012-02-24 12:28 PM

 

If waved to a stop by the french police I still intend to place caution first and put the Satnav away even though I have disabled the POI camera info. Problem as I see it is that I can restore the Camera POI's at any time.

 

Utterly confused and travelling through France at the end of March ------Mike

 

Stopped by two gendarmes the other day when driving UK registered car. Did not have sat-nav with me but no way would I have had the opportunity to hide the thing. One stands directly in front of me so I would have had to run him over and the other was watching me like a hawk through the driving window. If seen trying to hide something pretty sure they would arrest you and ask questions later ending at least in a much bigger fine.

 

Risk it at your own peril!!

[alanmac]

I rang the caravan club the other day about Sat Nav's and breath test kits and their response (gleaned from the equivalent Frenckh Club was:-

Yes the camera ruling is in place but police have been asked to "tread softly" for the first few months. Their legal department have the view that French police do not have the " right of entry" to your vehicle to inspect a sat nav should they stop you ! - Try telling that to a 2 metre tall Gendarme with a pistol !

So I have gone on line and found that for my sat nav (Navman S90i) the alerts can be disabled so my PC consultant - (eldest son) has done this for me.

I now wait to try it out - my next message may be from a French prison.

 

On the question of breath test kits they report that the French Govt has yet to decide a starting date although - reportedly- many French drivers have purchased them and carry them.

They can be bought at French Pharmacies for 2 or 3 Euros. Also on cross channel ships at much higher orices - but they warn ,you should buy 2 as if you only have one and use it, you are then infringing the law by not carrying one. Cunning people the French !

All the above I got from the CC - hope it helps/confuses ?

alanmac

[mike 202]

Patricia - 2012-02-24 12:57 PM

 

mike 202 - 2012-02-24 12:28 PM

 

If waved to a stop by the french police I still intend to place caution first and put the Satnav away even though I have disabled the POI camera info. Problem as I see it is that I can restore the Camera POI's at any time.

 

Utterly confused and travelling through France at the end of March ------Mike

 

Stopped by two gendarmes the other day when driving UK registered car. Did not have sat-nav with me but no way would I have had the opportunity to hide the thing. One stands directly in front of me so I would have had to run him over and the other was watching me like a hawk through the driving window. If seen trying to hide something pretty sure they would arrest you and ask questions later ending at least in a much bigger fine.

 

Risk it at your own peril!!

 

Ok,Praticia you have made a very valid point about trying to fool the French police which I will take to heart. At least it will keep me safer in France. Also the disabling of the Bluetooth seems now to be irrelvant.

 

I am still pondering the validity of my deletion of the POI safety cameras. OR should I just leave the Satnav switched off and ii one of the motorhome lockers. Any advice will be most gratefully received.

 

Mike